Helmet on road?

I wear one all the time – being hit by a car and ending up with a huge crack in the helmet a mile from home means I do it even for short trips. I guess for me it was already ingrained before the accident from cycling proficiency in the 80s and then reinforced by the accident.

This weekend I rode with a different (faster) group at club and was interested to see that the (mature) group leader didn’t wear one, just a cap. I’d kind of assumed that club rides would be like sportives with a no helmet no ride policy but it seems not (I’m still new to the club so learning all the rules).

And for cool videos, how about this one?

Cat-boarding made this thread worthwhile.

The difference in the Netherlands isn’t (just) down to infrastructure. Look at how the press, public and courts react to a car/cyclist accident. Note: not one mention of helmets.

Let me try again.

You fall off your bike at 40mph.
Do you:

a) hit your head on an immovable object instantaneously decelerating it to 0mph?

or

b) some other scenario?

I’ll give you a clue; it’s unlikely to be “a”.

Take your time.

Do you think that in a 40mph crash, your head will do a nice neat 12mph vertical drop to the floor like they do in the laboratory, or is it just possible that other forces might just be involved? F=0.5M*V^2

Take your time.

Yes, it’s the law here. Don’t have a problem with it.
A friend who works in Road Safety here was visiting Denmark where his counterparts wished they could bring in mandatory helmets for bike riders but the public opinion would stop them.

The difference in the Netherlands isn’t (just) down to infrastructure. Look at how the press, public and courts react to a car/cyclist accident. Note: not one mention of helmets.

We know that countries very safe for cycling (Denmark & Netherlands) have low levels of helmet wearing, and that where helmets were made compulsory (Australia and Canada?), safety didn’t improve. Clearly then, other factors are much more important.

As I’ve said before, I wear a helmet, but that’s because it might reduce the severity of a low speed bump, rather than save my life.

A friend who works in Road Safety here was visiting Denmark where his counterparts wished they could bring in mandatory helmets for bike riders but the public opinion would stop them.

The public in Denmark are probably aware that cycling there is very safe. I was there earlier this year, and rather enjoyed cycling without a helmet.

If you look at Danish cyclists, bikes are generally utilitarian and they rarely wear any cycle specific clothing – it’s just part of normal life for them.

If you look at DanishAustralian cyclists in cities, bikes are generally utilitarian and they rarely wear any cycle specific clothing except a helmet– it’s just part of normal life for them.

Edit as the roads of the UK and the rest of the world are very unfriendly towards cyclists it may be worth adopting a different attitude.

I don’t wear one on the road because I’ve never come close to having a crash other than once when I was playing around on the ice, down to my own stupidity 😆 I often feel I probably should wear one as I’ve had a few close shaves with cars on roundabouts, but I mostly ride on country roads and hardly ever see any cars. Always feel I should be wearing one when I’m on a 40+ mph descent though!

I wear one ‘cos all the pros do and they’re bestest at everything innit

The difference in the Netherlands isn’t (just) down to infrastructure. Look at how the press, public and courts react to a car/cyclist accident. Note: not one mention of helmets.

That’s one of the most depressing cycling related videos I’ve ever seen.

Edit as the roads of the UK and the rest of the world are very unfriendly towards cyclists it may be worth adopting a different attitude.

Such as a friendlier attitude? I Kinda take your point, but there’s no strong evidence that helmet-wearing improves our safety, so just maybe what we should all be asking for are measures that actually work.

That’s one of the most depressing cycling related videos I’ve ever seen.

How so DezB?

I think it illustrates just how different our culture is to the Netherlands. The same incident here would probably result in long articles about dangerous cyclists and the driver being awarded compensation for the trauma.

do all the helmet advocates wear one when walking and inside a motor vehicle, because by their logic they should .

Always a strange argument

99.9% say I always wear one off road

3-5% argue for not wearing on road.

Me well I have never damaged a helmet off road, hurt arms, legs stomach. I ride off road with the ever present likely hood of falling off.

On road I have grazed my elbow once but when hit by a car [she didnt see me on the roundabout] I suffered bad enough head injury but thankfully the helmet did its job., interestingley as I was going out with my bike I last minute decided to take my helmet, I didnt normally ride on road with one.

So conclusion if I hadnt have stopped to get my helmet I would have been across the roundabout before she arrived, Helmets are dangerous.

I’m going to stick to riding without, my gut feeling is that riding road bikes is pretty safe (despite the dickhead in a merc who thought that me riding in the primary position was in some way illegal and needed punishing)

Anyway I’ve not seen anything that merits wearing one.

How so DezB?

I think it illustrates just how different our culture is to the Netherlands

Exactly! I don’t live in the Netherlands!

nice logic, Dales R!

but more seriously, we should think about this when we look at all the ‘stats’ >>

survivorship bias

I’d rather have my crash helmet in pieces than my head in pieces. I’ve been run over before whilst doing about 20mph and only wearing a beany hat. You’ll gravitate towards the road very quickly at that speed and with a force that your arms will not be able to absorb.

What people seem to omit from their analysis on how safe something is is the objective and subjective dangers.

People arguing for places where it is safe to ride on the road with out a helmet are falling in to the trap of comparing places with different Objective Dangers.
The same applies to arguing that subjective dangers can negate the need to wear a helmet at all.

Reality is it just takes one objective danger to kill you, wearing a helmet may or may not save you but subjectively it gives you a chance.

do all the helmet advocates wear one when walking and inside a motor vehicle, because by their logic they should .

Makes as much sense as me arguing that those who advocate not wearing one should also not wear a seatbelt or any other from of PPE.
1. it might not save your life
2. you might drive/act differently because you wear it

etc

Now I could do this but it is a poor argument

Arguing for PPE in one scenarios does not mean we have to wear it all scenarios or we would wear one to get out of bed as someone has died banging their head doing this.
In essence folk assess risks differently.
Many of us would not do what Danny Mac does on a bike yet that appears safe

Regarding survivorship bias?

I think the real bias is that those who would have been injured without a helmet but are protected [ perhaps at low speeds] dont feature in the research. Sure some folk will claim it saved their life [ and it is not like we will replicate so it true to say we cannot be sure] but we dont have stats for injuries and stats for not injured due to wearing a helmet for example as they surveys measure injuries not the situations where it did offer full protection.

The test for proving a helmet offers some protection is very easy to do so it has to be accepted that they do offer protection

We could debate whether it is enough but not whether it offers protection

junky, i was being slightly flippant, but since there are a lot of head injuries in vehicle incidents, it follows that wearing some protection will minimise this somewhat….. cycle helmets will provide some low impact protection granted, but to say they are essential and only fools ignore/decline their use is wrong on many levels…..

aye some people on both sides overstate the case 😉

I agree the car argument is not without merit but my only point is everyone is a hypocrit at some point in the world of PPE

but to say they are essential and only fools ignore/decline their use is wrong on many levels…..

I DO think it’s foolish to not wear some simple protection. Every little helps. In a car you already have some protection, so having nothing on a bike seems foolish to me.

I think there’s a lot of wilful or accidental confusion of two different arguments here, and on a broad scale, that confusion is dangerous to cyclists.

I choose to wear one on the road bike, usually. I’m happy on occasions not to. Frankly, the main reason I wear one is to stop some motorist’s defence lawyer from reducing their liability after they’ve pranged me off, and to keep observers/loved-ones happy.

Absolutely it offers a marginal degree of protection that might apply in some circumstances. I might be grateful for that, but I think the chances of such a circumstance occurring are pretty low. I don’t, for instance, choose to wear it in the shower (a common injury location, where ironically a slip is much more likely to replicate the actual tested circumstances applied to the lid). Likewise, I’m not going to buy my child a safety helmet for toddling around (they exist!).

Those of us using the Netherlands example DON’T miss the point in the way that’s been implied. ABSOLUTELY general riding conditions are better there. However, the way we’re conditioned in the UK to advocate helmets as a necessary sticking plaster probably does an awful lot more harm than good, because our version of safety for cyclists is handing out high-viz and helmets, rather than dealing with the real dangers to cyclists the way Holland has so successfully done.

a common injury location, where ironically a slip is much more likely to replicate the actual tested circumstances applied to the lid).

never slipped in the shower nor fallen in the street but I have crashed a bike and fubbarred a number of helmets in the process

our version of safety for cyclists is handing out high-viz and helmets, rather than dealing with the real dangers to cyclists

Indeed other things would offer us protection as well but it is not an either or

However, the way we’re conditioned in the UK to advocate helmets as a necessary sticking plaster probably does an awful lot more harm than good, because our version of safety for cyclists is handing out high-viz and helmets, rather than dealing with the real dangers to cyclists

In simple terms though they are 2 parts here. I can choose and control putting a helmet on myself. I cannot change the behaviour of motorists or the designs of roads. I do not think a helmet makes me invincible but I choose to use one.

Indeed other things would offer us protection as well but it is not an either or

No, it’s not, but as the TED talk I linked to argues, the general PPE culture around cycling actually harms cycling.

Remember, folks, it’s also important to dismount at roundabouts.

I DO think it’s foolish to not wear some simple protection.

Such as arm and knee protectors? Hi viz jacket?

There are weakness in both approaches doing the same hyperbole attacks on each other is futile

So you are a hypocrite for wearing a helmet if you dont wear PPE is like me arguing helmet less riders should be naked as clothes offer some protection to the limbs or they are also hypocrites

Its a crap argument hat works either way

Its a crap argument hat works either way

yogic bowel movement ?

As above – my elbows aren’t as valuable as my brain.

And I do choose high visibility clothing yes.

PS I think people claiming that helmet wearing is a red herring becuase it diverts attention from safety is itself a red herring. Yes, we need proper driver and cyclist education, and provision for cyclists, but why not wear a lid at the same time? It’s going to help reduce brain mangling, and that’s a good thing.

PS I think people claiming that helmet wearing is a red herring becuase it diverts attention from safety is itself a red herring.

That’s not really what’s being claimed. In my case I’m saying we need to be very careful of disproportionately entrenching the PPE culture, because it harms the fundamentally safe activity of cycling, and diverts attention to the wrong place. Less simple than you make it.

In short, I wear one, but we need to stop harping on about the bloody things and hold the right people to account for the right things.

By the way, there was a recent high-profile campaign in the Netherlands to give out helmets to kids and encourage them to wear them. The sponsor? A certain very large Dutch oil company.

(I recently rode up Ventoux and bought one of the photos of me from one of the roadside guys. My lid was strapped to the bars for the ascent. The first three people I showed it to said stuff like “tut tut, no helmet”. Well no, I was riding at less than 7mph up a steep mountain, for about 14 miles in 30-degree heat and bright sunshine. Heatstroke was a far bigger risk than head injury. But it’s all about the sodding helmets. We’re bonkers)

ormondroyd, I know what you are saying, but on the other hand you run the risk of overcomplicating it too.

It’s common sense, isn’t it? Same as putting on shoes when you walk outside in case you step on a sharp stone. That doesn’t mean it’s ok for people to throw broken glass everywhere, of course. I don’t think anyone thinks it is.

Same as putting on shoes when you walk outside in case you step on a sharp stone.

I think that’s false equivalence. Shoes are utiltarian, not (edit)specifically PPE. A fairer analogy: Do you wear steel toe capped safety shoes every time you go to Tescos in case something runs over or falls on your foot? It could happen, and you’d definitely be safer with the toe caps.

(and pertinently: If it became expected that you’d need safety equipment at Tescos – after all, cans can fall off shelves any time – what would that do to people’s attitude towards the activity of going to Tescos? That’s kind of where cycling is now – the PPE culture adds to the sense of danger for what is basically a safe activity)

I recently rode up Ventoux and bought one of the photos of me from one of the roadside guys. My lid was strapped to the bars for the ascent. The first three people I showed it to said stuff like “tut tut, no helmet

I’m surprised.

I’ve never heard anyone comment about a lack of helmet (except here).

I don’t actually know many people who wear helmets routinely.

i have had some comments about non helmet wearing , from other cyclists, i politely explain that i am not racing,and that i have managed to cope for the last thirty odd years without one… have come off a couple of times, but that was my fault…wet road going too fast, round a gravel strewn bend at speed–i knew both times i was risking it, so its about risk compensation for me….