Grouse moor licencing, Scotland.

I was at least actually in Canada.

Just a reminder the consultation on grouse moor licensing is still on. thew shooters lobby have as expected a coordinated response to this thats basically ” Its no fair”. The more people that sign in favour of licensing the sooner we put this criminal conspiracy out of business

Completed, many thanks for the link.

Consultation response submitted. Get your responses in.

https://consult.gov.scot/environment-forestry/wildlife-management-in-scotland/consultation/subpage.2022-09-15.0619890324/

Form submitted here too.

Nice to see the law is being used and licenses revoked.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-64863534

Article mentions that this is the fifth estate in Scotland to have its general license revoked.

Yes; baby steps but at least they’re in the right direction.

Meantime, these last couple of days have been really smoky here in Angus, as the estates furiously burn their heather off. There’s been a pall of brown smoke over 20 miles long hanging over Strathmore, highlighted by still air and blue skies. When are we going to finally ban this damaging, arcane activity..?

Good first step.
Now can they do the same to the Glen Almond estates…

Game-shooting industry seething at grouse moor licensing bill

Oh what a shame. they should have stopped being criminals then

good to see the bill finally getting to parliament.  Its not that radical.  If they don’t kill raptors and follow the guidance on muirburn ( which they should have been doing anyway) they will be fine

I’m sure Fergus Ewing is apoplectic.

The field sports industry is a bit like trump supporters, if you have annoyed them then you must be doing something right.

To add:

These photos were taken seven years apart – one on my first day of work at Mar Lodge in 2016, the other today. It's been a real privilege to study the woodlands' regeneration in real time, thanks to the hard work of scores of people across many years. @MarLodgeNTS pic.twitter.com/P4ZQ3gHHWm

— Andrew Painting (@PaintingAndrew) March 21, 2023

Mar lodge – IIRC the sale to the NTS included a covenant that it was managed as a sporting estate still.  So it shows what can be done.  IIRC they now do walk up grouse shooting not driven – so kills are in small numbers not huge and thus the land does not have to be a monoculture grouse farm

Curious what habitat they claim to be preserving with muirburn (other than grouse habitat, obviously).

Is this a sledgehammer to the industry, or will it just result in reduced bags? I don’t know how shooting is ‘paid’ for, per day out? per head grouse? If people want a day out shooting will they just give up if the prey becomes somewhat more scarce?

If people want a day out shooting will they just give up if the prey becomes somewhat more scarce?

That is the general argument of the field sports industry.

“Who ever heard of a deer forest with trees?” being a quote from the Caledonia book from a gamekeeper speaking about it.

I do think there is a balance – Mar Lodge is a good (yet imperfect, as they all are) example of that balance.

Our challenge is how we get from the culture and industry we have now to a culture and industry (livelihoods) which values nature alongside the field sports, rather than the affected/odd version they currently claim is nature.

I don’t think it will actually make a huge difference to well managed grouse shoots that stay within the law.  The ones in the criminal conspiracy will be put out of business.  They will still be allowed muirburn – just will have to reduce the amount of it ad there will be oversight.  Its not like grouse shooting is being banned or muirburn is banned

Over time it should improve land management and hopefully put a few of them out of business

They will still be allowed muirburn – just will have to reduce the amount of it ad there will be oversight.

With Nature Scot having lost 60%+ of its budget over the last few years, I wonder if there are enough people to actually undertake oversight. If a ranger/Nature Scot staff member pops in, the moment their back is turned the fire ‘accidentally spreads from a rogue gust of wind’ and burns it all anyway…

Then the estate can have its license revoked.  vicarious liability  – I think

“Who ever heard of a deer forest with trees?” being a quote from the Caledonia book from a gamekeeper speaking about it.

A very interesting bit in ‘The book of Trespass’ tells how the english population were foragers/hunters etc in the forests, until William the conqueror installed his ‘landowners’, who ,to make money selling deer meat, cut rides through the forests and banned the ‘peasants’ from foraging,so they could hunt more easily. So the people had to find other source of food/shelter so had to work for a landowner.

My worry is that if the grouse moors get shut down, the shooters will move down south, and takeover the remainder of the woods for more shoots

there is a consultation document to gather folks views on the proposed scheme

https://yourviews.parliament.scot/raine/wildlife-management-and-muirburn-scotland-bill/

One of the worst estates for being a barren grouse moor, in my experience, has been bought out by a conservation group.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/23451341.two-huge-scottish-estates-20m-buyout-set-conservation-projects/

There’s a lot of bullshit bingo in the press release there – what does “the largest debt transaction on nature-based finance in the UK” mean?

You will never get rid of these awful things.

Too many rich and powerful people own them or enjoy the “sport” and pay a small fortune to do so.

How many do the Royals own and how many of them shoot?

Its slowly changing in Scotland and the grouse moor licensing will put some out of business no doubt – because they will not stop their criminal activity

Quite a few shooting estates no longer are such

One of the worst estates for being a barren grouse moor, in my experience, has been bought out by a conservation group.

That is interesting as Buccleuch also sold of a large part of Langholm Moor in the community buyout. https://www.langholminitiative.org.uk/langholm-moor
Of course, Buccleuch still has a LOT of shooting land, but very interesting that they are also not adverse to selling it off for non shooting purposes.

Of course, Buccleuch still has a LOT of shooting land, but very interesting that they are also not adverse to selling it off for non shooting purposes.

I have said a few times on this thread that we have to find alternative sources of income and employment alongside the cultural/attitudinal changes.

With my optimistic hat on I wonder how many bigger landowners will be seeing the changes coming, and opportunities a few enterprising charities/investors have implemented, and start to change how they view their land management and ownership….Is the the breath of change starting to blow?

I have said a few times on this thread that we have to find alternative sources of income and employment alongside the cultural/attitudinal changes.

There’s a certain amount of eco-tourism? I think some former shooting estates have done OK out of this, and then there’s Knepp?

Wildlife tourism is worth 5 million a year to the island of mull.  grouse shooting brings little money in to the local economy – most of it stays on the estates

I wish I could find a link to the recent Nature Scotland/ Cairngorm NP research which demonstrated that outdoor sports alone, just within the National Park land area, are now worth more to the Scottish economy than all of the shooting across the whole of the country combined.
So, put simply, we could ban all driven shooting and nudge the landowners to adapt to a new world order where they have to encourage sports, eco-tourism and recreational activities across their land. Licence local hunting initiatives, as most civilised countries do. And the Americans.
We can then make ourselves into a healthier and wealthier country. It’s not rocket science…

Wildlife tourism is worth 5 million a year to the island of mull. grouse shooting brings little money in to the local economy – most of it stays on the estates

I was on Isle of Luing at the weekend – even a tiny place like that had a busy visitors centre and cafe, and they said it was a constant stream of people most days through the season unless the weather was foul. Everyone was buying coffee, food, beer, books, ferry tickets of course. The food was local langousitine or lobster, beef from the island, and they reckoned that 30%+ of the veggie were frim the island. They were answering questions about wildlife tours and more and sharing local artists work.

It *seemed* a cracking income to the islanders….

Managed grouse moors tend to benefit a lot more to the fauna and biodiversity than just bringing in rich people to contribute to the economy. This covers it somewhat – https://www.moorlandassociation.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/THE-VALUE-OF-GROUSE-MOOR-MANAGEMENT.pdf

As with everything that’s controversial or a hot topic, it’s best to research things for yourself from an abject view point where you try to possess no feelings for either side of the board and come to a conclusion from researching the topics. I hold the opinion that if things aren’t broken don’t fix them. We’ve been doing grouse shooting for some time now and it does have its benefits on the ecosystem, but it also has negative ones particularly around releasing trapped carbon from the peat. As with everything there is always trade offs, however, the alternative suggestions we often see to “re-wild” places don’t get reported on when they’ve been a massive failure with only specific species of fauna growing there because deer have no natural predators and eat all the saplings and new tree shoots so only the fastest growing thrive, as one example.

Do I agree with the hoity toity types shooting game birds? Well if they’re not gonna do it here they’re gonna do it elsewhere, and managing the uplands helps as said with biodiversity, the UK has lost almost half of it’s biodiversity since the 1970’s due to invasive farming practices, development, insect die off, predators not kept in check etc and it’s sad. Anything which has a knock on effect and benefits a larger portion of wildlife to me is a good thing, even if its means big rich people shoot tons of birds, at least on good shoots most end up in the food chain, the few who dump the excess can’t be a name for all shoots.

Errmmm – really not so.  The grouse moor shooters like to claim it helps with biodiverstiy but its a monoculture green desert with all predators killed, no tree cover, impoverished soils and erosion problems from muirburn.  Grouse shooting acts against biodiversity

The Moorland association is a shooters lobby group pumping out pro shooting propaganda

Biodiversity?  don’t make me laugh.  The kill everything they can including endangered mountain hares to say nothing of the illegal killing of raptors which is widespread and well proven

we often see to “re-wild” places don’t get reported on when they’ve been a massive failure with only specific species of fauna growing there because deer have no natural predators and eat all the saplings and new tree shoots so only the fastest growing thrive,

The immediate answer is culling to a sustainable level. Look at what’s happening in the likes of Glen Feshie. Of course, there’s the option to re-introduce wolves too…

As scotroutes say – rewilding done right has huge biodiversity benefits

No trees at all on grouse moors

Grouse shooting acts against biodiversity

In the interests of balance, that’s not entirely true.  Ground nesting birds, some of which are nationally endangered, thrive on grouse moors due to predator control.  Lapwings, Curlew, Golden Plover and Dunlin for example.  Some rare invertebrates also do better on managed heather moorland than other habitats.

I’m not defending illegal raptor killing etc. which is an outrage and should be dealt with harshly – including the landowners through vicarious liability, but the biodiversity issue is not quite as black and white as you suggest.

A tiny possible benefit – set that against the huge losses to biodiversity from grouse moors.

It’s all gardening anyway, as my old SNH boss who was a geologist used to say.
He did used to think in geological time frames though.

The key issue with modern grouse moor management is the fact that trees aren’t allowed to grow.
The actual economic value of wider recreation activities isn’t the issue, it’s the fact that at present the estates get that revenue for very little relative cost to them.
Bike hire and tea shops and guided walks will all bring in money, but at greater cost than the current activities.

And the killing of all unwanted animals.  Eagles, buzzards, kites, sparrowhawks, hares, stoats, weasels, anything that either competes with or eats grouse.  Medicated grit is a big issue as well I believe.

It’s all gardening anyway, as my old SNH boss who was a geologist used to say.
He did used to think in geological time frames though.

I like that 🙂

@scotroutes Let’s start with lynx…

When did Grouse moors become a thing? And what was the landscape like prior to this? Were the Highlands (and the vast tracts of moorland south of the Central belt) all covered in groves of Caledonian pines?

And, without man’s interference, what species of fauna dominated?

And, more to the point, would eradicating grouse moors dramatically reduce the number of midges? 😄

(Sorry for any derail…I’m just curious having bagged 100+ Munro’s in the past without really knowing what the landscape should look like!)

Ground nesting birds, some of which are nationally endangered, thrive on grouse moors due to predator control.  Lapwings, Curlew, Golden Plover and Dunlin for example.  

That’s exactly what it says on the ‘Welcome to the Moor’ boards on our local grouse moor. All I ever actually see is grouse.