yes I have. Killing without cruelty – there is no real difference in the cruelty in an abattoir ( and the transport to it) or on the moorsides IMO

I eat meat but I have no illusions that meat is animals and they are killed for food nor have I any illusions about factory farming or hunting.

Me too. As im a time served Butcher I was interested in all aspects of my trade and took a 2 year p/t course in meat inspection, based in Glasgow Abattoir. So I’m very familiar with it all from start to finish, and obviously the legislation required in the production of meat as our foodstuff.

Personally I’ve never witnessed cruelty as a rule in a slaughterhouse, apart from odd incidents perpetrated by poor operatives, acting by themselves and who were sacked for their actions.

But if you can’t tell the difference, then you are the wrong person to speak on such matters.

I have visited abattoirs and and I’ve also shot and butchered deer.  There is absolutely no comparison in the level of stress and suffering and I know which I’d prefer.  Farm animals, often from intensive farming systems, transported stressfully en masse in overcrowded vehicles to an industrial facility where many sense what’s about to happen and bleat/moo pitifully, clearly distressed up until they are stunned.  Whilst I accept that abattoir staff do all they can to minimise suffering they are not always successful. They are bleak, depressing places and many farm animals have fairly miserable lives even before the point of slaughter, Two for a fiver Tesco chicken anyone?  Male dairy calves?

Compared to a deer in it’s natural environment, not transported anywhere, unstressed, browsing leaves, blissfully unaware of a stalkers presence until it falls over having never even heard the shot that killed it.  Which is more ethical?  To say hunting for food should be banned whilst defending the industrial slaughter of animals is gross hypocrisy.

Cheers for the link Matt, interesting read.

But if you can’t tell the difference, then you are the wrong person to speak on such matters.

I can tell the difference

As the blokes post points out – there isn’t really one or not a quantifiable one that makes a moral differnce

Stick to calling o9ut the shooting and hunting bams for the wrong they do but don’t think factory reared abbotoir killed meat is morally superior to free range and cleanly shot meat

anyway – enough thread digression

Oh bums TJ, what a dilemma for you. Bloke’s point stands with you on abattoirs, but against your views on hunting.

But fair enough, back to hunting driven grouse.

Or we can all agree that there are points on all sides and people have differing views. ‘Agree to disagree’ like so many arguments and debates, should then be the status quo.

works for me

Another interesting piece – I agree that food and farming is a totally integral part of the countryside, and there’s changes/improvements needed on both sides of the (non existent) fence imo.

https://amp.theguardian.com/environment/2021/dec/28/agriculture-recycling-carbon-farmers-reframe-rewilding-debate

Further to my assertion that larsen or cage traps are routinely used on grouse moors to kill birds of prey.  Brads was insistent they are not. These cage traps are often used illegally both in that they are not checked daily as they should be and that they are used to catch and kill raptors

https://community.rspb.org.uk/ourwork/b/investigations/posts/cage-traps-used-to-kill-raptors-across-the-uk

I find it interesting as to where Larsen traps are locally.

The estates in the near vicinity – just off tracks or roads, easily accessible to maintain.

The estates I know in Glen Almond with evidenced wildlife crime and suspicions of wildlife crime – hidden way off the track, invisible unless within a few metres etc.

Keep an eye on the hidden ones matt and report them if any suspicions

The lovely Dalhousie estate are being investigated further over the death through gas poisoning of a guest in one of their properties. Maybe they will take time off burning the moors to get their stories straight?

https://www.grough.co.uk/magazine/2022/01/26/restrictions-placed-on-lochan-estate-near-dunkeld-after-hen-harrier-death

Opening para…

A Perthshire shooting estate faces three years of restrictions after a Scottish government body imposed limitations on its general licence.

And linked in the comments https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-60156311

3 of the white tailed eagles reintroduced to the isle of wight killed

the local MP?

”

Mr Loder said: “Dorset is not the place for eagles to be reintroduced. I’m not challenging government for more money for Dorset so it goes on this.

“I don’t condone this at all, but I want Dorset Police to focus on county lines rather than spend time and resources on this.”

Millden Estate (Angus Glens) gamekeeper convicted for animal cruelty in relation to badger baiting

Convicted game keeper from the Angus Millden Estate.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/scots-gamekeeper-exposed-part-brutal-26921255

he sent horror photographs to be developed and the alarm was raised by the shop worker who was appalled

Ive read that a few times but find it hard to believe youd take photos of animal cruelty then get them developed in a shop.

Well the good news is he’ll probably never be able to work as a gamekeeper again, I can’t imagine he’ll ever be able to hold an air rifle certificate let alone a Firearms Licence. Not sure which makes me more angry, what he did or the fact it’s an incidental charge that will actually stop him being able to work as a keeper.

Ive read that a few times but find it hard to believe youd take photos of animal cruelty then get them developed in a shop.

I mean, his solicitor wasn’t wrong.

“How he was detected suggests a lack of guile and thought,” the lawyer said. “It appears that he didn’t think through the implications of what he was doing.”

I’m not really sure how else he thought that would end. Same idiot mentality as Gary Glitter really.

That mp I referred to above has now leant on the local police. Investigations closed. Wildlife crime unit disbanded.

Its a criminal conspiracy

I mean, his solicitor wasn’t wrong.

He had a QC, impressive he was able to afford that, isn’t it? Local estate to me and as disruptive to access as you could imagine them being. Various bridges on their land have all been declared dangerous and barbed wire up over the last decade or so. Weirdly only the ones on once popular Duke of Edinburgh routes; must be those heavy packs Bronze kids pack.

And it’s exactly those people that give all estates a shitty name. If you think views are entrenched (not the right word but I’m on nights) here (eg. towards drivers) you ain’t seen anything in the shooting world. You literally have to be ‘for’ everything or you’re basically no better than an ‘anti’ (according to some I hasten to add, not everyone thinks like this).

One of our local spots – another Golden Eagle and I could have placed a bet about which estate….
Dead golden eagle found in Strathbraan: Police Scotland appeals for information

I have had previous with them in my old job, and any walk around the hills of Strathbraan shows a narrow biodiversity and near mono-culture in existence. Alongside multiple larsen cages, random feed in trays on moorland (not grit) etc.

One of the estates local to me & somewhere I cycle through regularly has been given the “Wildlife Estates Scotland” award for recognising its wildlife & conservation efforts. It has also been awarded the “Golden Plover Award” for integrated & sustainable upland management. The owner of the estate also happened to be the chairman of the WES project at the time he awarded himself the award. The estate owner has also been bestowed an OBE for services to wildlife conservation in Scotland.

He has effectively excluded most members of the public from the estate by closing access to the small car park which lies on land within the estate but owned by the local water authority. The justification for doing this was that he was providing a new more suitable car park nearby. This he did, but there was a new and previously unmentioned permit system in place. There were 12 annual permits available, just 12 & I have never seen any cars there. The car park he supplied; the last time I looked was full of plant machinery & had been closed to the public. There is no impediment to walkers or cyclists but it’s had the desired effect that very few people now venture there on foot.

I’m no expert on these matters but it looks to me that a lot of the estate along with the adjoining estates are run as driven shooting estates. There are well maintained butts all over the estate. The whole place is tidy & well kept but that is where the good news ends. The habitat is heather & Muirburn.

There’s a remote area that my wife & I cycle through, my wife calls it the valley of death. There were a variety of bird & animal carcasses in varying states of decomposition littering the ground over a wide area. I had to ride round them there were so many. There are traps for mustelids everywhere, Larsen bird traps not so frequent but still plenty of them. Dead hares and rabbits used to be a frequent sight but I think both of these populations have been all but eradicated.

I had a lengthy conversation with the local BTO ranger (British Trust for Ornithology) a few months ago. He is licenced to ring certain species of wild birds, monitor the population & habitat. I brought the subject of the estate in question up & I could see his demeanour changing. He said “there’s no good news”. He has personally witnessed wildlife crime taking place there. This was witnessed by him & an accompanying colleague. The gamekeeper shot an owl about 400m from where the were stood. The carcass was concealed but the local wildlife crimes officer later located this. They were threaten with physical violence & prosecution for “trespass” by the gamekeeprs at the site of the crime.

It’s honestly heartbreaking that this is going on in plain sight. It looks to me like landowners can pretty much do whatever they want when it comes to wildlife persecution & suffer zero concequences. There’s simply no accountability to anyone else for their actions.

I’m with TJ’s views on this. It’s a criminal conspiracy of epic proportions hidden in plain sight.

Is there information on how many pheasants a raptor may take through a year?
It can’t be more than a days shoot which seems to average 600kills and this is a small shooting range, sorry estate. The cost to an estate of “feeding” a raptor must be £10s per year. Yet days shoot costs £100s.

As said earlier I’m compromised as I take pheasants from the shoot that would go into landfill. Probably half a dozen per week through the season plus grouse and regularly have to decline politely when 2 dozen birds turn up. Still hate the whole industry though

Some chunky proposals over estate ownership, responsibility and tax avoidance:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jul/04/big-scottish-landowners-could-face-fines-nature-climate-failings

Ok, finally some movement on this. Time for some Singletrack voices to be added to the debate..?

https://consult.gov.scot/environment-forestry/wildlife-management-in-scotland/

Thanks for the link, a job for this evening.

Bump.
It’s mostly a questionnaire to complete, with the various areas addressed in turn from Licences, muirburn, trapping etc., mainly yes/no answers with room to comment. If everything in this was enacted, we would be making a significant step towards clipping the wings of the driven shooting industry. Although I’d still like to go further.

I’ve no objection to ‘hunting’ for food with firearms; it’s the slaughter of farmed birds (pheasants, partridges, grouse) and everything that spins outwards from that which I strongly object to. Plus the obscene tax breaks and twisted agricultural support that are still in place.

There’s a major avian flu outbreak across the country but they’re still allowed to release captive bred birds because…🙁

You think that shoots are releasing captive bred Grouse?

Cheers for posting that @highlandman

Completed

Completed

Arable, Sheep farming, Forestry and Grouse moors are all mono cultures. And environmentally all really harmful in different ways.
In Wales Curlews and Peewits are almost extinct. The Pennines Grouse moors have a a lot of these species even though it’s not perfect Peewit habitat. In part that’s due to Keepers eliminating scavenger/predators. When the Environment gets so degraded previously minor factors can tip the balance.

You think that shoots are releasing captive bred Grouse?

I’ll defy you to go onto many a ‘grouse moor’ to find grouse because there aren’t any. I used to live on an estate in Moray at the northern edge of the Cairngorms and would spend hours at a time walking with my dog and you’d maybe raise a couple of pairs. It was even worse if you went south into the National Park, areas managed by Crown Estates, completely devoid of anything living apart from a few scraggy sheep.

Completed that survey too.

PSA:

Riverwoods is screening on 5Select* at 8pm on Monday 7 November.

Three years in the making, Riverwoods is a feature-length documentary narrated by Peter Capaldi that tells the compelling story of a barely believable relationship between fish and forest.

Why not get around the TV with family and friends and learn why…

The salmon need the forest. The forest needs the salmon. And Scotland needs them both.
*5Select is channel 56 on Freeview, elsewhere on other services. Available only on HD equipment.

Just a reminder the consultation on grouse moor licensing is still on.  thew shooters lobby have as expected a coordinated response to this thats basically ” Its no fair”.  The more people that sign in favour of licensing the sooner we put this criminal conspiracy out of business

https://consult.gov.scot/environment-forestry/wildlife-management-in-scotland/consultation/subpage.2022-09-15.0619890324/

Thanks, submitted

I found myself chatting to a couple of Canadian hunters last week.

They did not have a good view of UK hunting practices, and they didnt even get onto Raptor poisoning. The whole business of managing whole landscapes to breed game thats them forced into a firing line seemed alien, and frankly a bit disgusting. Could just be an anomaly and ive always viewed some of the hunting practices in North America in a better like than stuff like driven shoots anyway, so not sure how much my bias is involved.

There also seems to be a very high proportion of “for the pot only” hunting. Im nit actually sure how much that gets shot in the UK makes it to the pot?

Im nit actually sure how much that gets shot in the UK makes it to the pot?

Grouse and deer do end up mainly on the food table. Who’s table is a thornier issue I think. Again, USA and Canada game seems (anecdotally) to fill a lot more diverse freezers…

The whole business of managing whole landscapes to breed game thats them forced into a firing line seemed alien, and frankly a bit disgusting.

I used to go shooting a lot. Mainly clays and targets, but I would get the occasional rabbit, and a few foxes have met their end because of me. And it all felt fine.
I was invited to go to a Pheasant shoot, by a wealthy Landowner. As above, I was disgusted by the idiots there who were having a great time shooting a pheasant that was walking 10 feet in front of them. There was no sport involved with it at all, it was mass murder. and the worst of it was the pheasant were not even taken home by the shooters. It was toward the end of the season, and the Shoot couldnt even sell them to the Butchers. They were put in a pile and burnt. This, I suspect is the same on Grouse moors, though I suspect the sporting element is a bit more, but even so, they are hushered toward the shooter, so hardly a difficult shot. Even though `i still shoot occasionally, i think it is morally wrong, and any cash made could easily be made another way without the need to ruin vast tanches of land for 2 months of shooting.

Again, USA and Canada game seems (anecdotally) to fill a lot more diverse freezers…

In the case of the Canadians I spoke too, they didn’t actually seem to “take” much despite it being a big part if their identity. But everything theyvdid take went to stock up the family freezer.

I found myself chatting to a couple of Canadian hunters last week.

Bizarre.

If I was hunting Canadians I wouldn’t be in Scotland.