Grouse moor licencing, Scotland.

It really is you know Brads

The extent of the criminality right across hunting and shooting has been well and truely exposed. Ewing the shooters friend and the major roadbliock to reform has been removed and the greens are now going to make the policy on this

the hunting and shooting lobby has been given loads of chances to get its house in order and has infact become much much worse

their days are numbered unless they stop destroying the environment and committing these crimes.

Its a proven fact that the vast majority of raptor killings are done on grouse moors and that its almost all grouse moors
Its a proven fact that muirburn causes huge ecological problems
Its a proven fact that the use of medicated grit causes ecological problems
its a proven fact that traps are routinely used illegally and are cruel.
Its a proven fact that drived bird shoooting is a very poor way of using the land if you want emplyment

there is no doubt at all that the disgusting criminal behavior of those running shoots and the wilful blindness of those that shoot disgusts the majority in this country

Your days of slaughtering wildlife for fun are coming to an end

this stuff is not my opinion – its proven fact. Open your eyes man. Unless people like you stop denying the criminality and help to get the criminals out of the industry then the industry will be over – in my lifetime.

@brads, what’s not fact? The fact that raptors are persecuted or the fact that you think otherwise?
Cos in North Yorkshire It’s a fact & TJ has already put links on that show reports of this. Swaledale & Nidderdale are rife with it.

Ewing the shooters friend and the major roadbliock to reform has been removed and the greens are now going to make the policy on this

Thankfully. The response i got from Ewing when i emailed him relating to this topic was mind blowing, including him sending me a link to a pro-muirburn YouTube video.

The SNP are now having discussions on the topic including the possibility of a ban of muirburn.

I have said this to you before Brads – I think you are a decent chap with a very differnt worldview to me – but you have a choice to make ( as do others in your position) continue to be a part of the problem by denying the problem exists and see your “sport” legislated out of existence or become part of the solution and you might be able to save a sustainable shooting industry.

I have no moral qualms with shooting beasts that end up in the pot. I am a meat eater and free range meat is probably a lessor evil

 free range meat is probably a lessor evil

huh, most game birds  and especially pheasant are are reared in pretty terrible conditions and are fairly described as “battery chickens in a party frock” Game birds are conveniently “non agricultural” (because the main purpose is sport not food production) so you don’t need to follow any of the pesky welfare legislation that covers livestock

most game birds and especially pheasant are are reared in pretty terrible conditions and are fairly described as “battery chickens in a party frock”

I’m not trying to defend the “game industry” but… is that fairly described by someone who’s never seen a battery chicken farm? Whilst pheasant are initially reared in fairly tightly packed conditions, if they were as bad as battery chickens they (1) would probably not survive long when released to the wild; (2) would probably not fly too well – which makes for shit sport; (3) won’t look too nice when the quarry is brought back to the shooter.

I’m not sure why you think game birds are not livestock – they are whilst they are penned. They are only not livestock once released. Whether gamekeepers etc properly understand that may be a different question, but the law (and organisations like the RSPB) consider that they are.

Like TJ I have no issue with eating game per se and think its probably better than a £2.50 ASDA chicken, but I am acutely aware that mass production of pheasants and partridge for shooting, which are released on mass for a relatively short season can have an adverse effect on the native/local flora/fauna.

I have no moral qualms with shooting beasts that end up in the pot. I am a meat eater and free range meat is probably a lessor evil

As a total aside we should all be eating more venison – deer overpopulation is a massively damaging thing and demand is down due to restaurants being shut.

I’m not sure why you think game birds are not livestock – they are whilst they are penned.

They clearly are, it’s just the appropriate legislation dealing with agricultural animal welfare doesn’t apply.

 would probably not survive long when released to the wild;

It often comes as a shock to folk I find, but pheasants, are about 22 weeks old when they’re released for shooting. They neither don’t need to be able to fly that well, or last that long in the scheme of things

think its probably better than a £2.50 ASDA chicken

The Asda chicken has probably been reared to better welfare standards, but their lives are shorter (about 6-9 weeks) so maybe it’s time to re-think that assumption

New turn of events on my local grousemoor, they’ve got a tractor up there pulling a plough… wtaf? They’ve already done several square miles with lovely neat rows. Has anyone seen this before or got any idea why, my best guess is that its an alternative to muirburn?

Or is it the biggest backtracking ever and they’re going to start growing tatties up there?
https://www.gwct.org.uk/blogs/news/2018/december/the-great-idea-of-ploughing-up-our-heather-moorlands-is-bizarre-our-letter-published-in-the-national/

Ive seen this tractor thing on grouse moors near Simons Seat in the Yorks Dales. Huge tractor just mashing up the moorland. No idea what for though.

most game birds and especially pheasant are are reared in pretty terrible conditions and are fairly described as “battery chickens in a party frock”

What evidence do you have of this? My dad was a gamekeeper and spent most of his working life rearing pheasants from day olds. Unless properly cared for the birds would not have survived in enough numbers to make it worthwhile. Pheasants are pretty skilled at suicide so a great deal of care and skill goes into rearing them. Partridges are even harder go rear, luckily mallard are indestructible. Once released into the woods they are still well cared for, making sure they have food and shelter, checking on them twice a day. My dad’s gamekeeping friends all did this. The goal wasn’t to breed cannon fodder but to give the birds a sporting chance. This meant planting new woods and hedging in suitable places to make use of the landscape. He eventually got tired of people who weren’t happy unless they had shot more than last time/year or who didn’t want go take a brace or two away with them. I think it would be a sad day if shooting was banned but I’d love to see a limit on the numbers that can be shot.

Ploughing up moorland is curious.

About the only precedents I can find are some bampot trying to block open access and trying to change the moor into pasture.

The second of which I’d expect to see a fair bit of (or at least attempting by legal and non legal means) if land is no longer used for hunting.

They clearly are, it’s just the appropriate legislation dealing with agricultural animal welfare doesn’t apply.

The EC directives (and UK implementations) don’t apply – but they aren’t really about welfare – they are about creating a level playing field. The Animal Welfare acts etc do apply, and there is a govt official code of practice (which if you don’t follow it you are probably breaking the Animal Welfare Act) – as far as I can see the difference between pheasant and a 2.50 broiler chicken is that there are extra requirements for the pheasant in the code of practice, but no absolute max on numbers/density, just a statement about appropriate stocking density. The pheasant by its very nature is slow-growing so doesn’t suffer from all the issues chickens do when grown as quickly as possible.

In any case though there’s no suggestion that keeping pheasant in battery style conditions is either acceptable nor productive. I suspect like many people you’ve mixed up battery hens and broiler chicken production.

The Asda chicken has probably been reared to better welfare standards, but their lives are shorter (about 6-9 weeks) so maybe it’s time to re-think that assumption

Would I rather be a pheasant packed in a pen and reared with some stimulation, probably daylight, with low mortality in the shed for many weeks then gradually exposed to the outdoors and finally let free to take my chances with the foxes, cars and guns and a perhaps 1:10 chance of making it through the whole season OR would I rather be a chicken where at the first sign of being undersize, weak, ill I’ll be euthanased then at 6 weeks electrocuted without ever seeing the outdoors…

I think rearing pheasants has changed since your dad’s day. Last figures I could find puts the number at about 50 million (2018), and I think only about 40% actually get shot (based on crude bag counts, no official stats exist) most end up being predated, stave to death, die of disease or become wild, and says of nothing about the environmental damage that over production encourages. I think pheasants now account for something like 20-25% of the entire UK bird breeding population.

You can’t really raise that many birds for as long as it takes under the sorts of welfare conditions that even the most cruelly kept chickens are reared for a considerably shorter time, and make any money from it. So they don’t.

2008 report about welfare conditions (or lack thereof)

@Poly, if the pheasant breeders/hatcheries took any notice of socking density there wouldn’t be the need to over produce in the numbers they do. It’s costs under £15 to raise a pheasant from egg to release in 22weeks. Most of that is food.  Vet care, record keeping, biosecurity are all sacrificed.

It’s not pretty, and it’s mostly out of sight.

I think pheasants now account for something like 20-25% of the entire UK bird breeding population.

Yup thats the best estimates although it does vary through the year since very few survive in the wild and hence they peak after the yearly release of targets and before they commit suicide in various ways. I was in the lake district a few weeks back and did like seeing the signs on the roads warning about pheasants. Perhaps if they had to cover the costs of the insurance claims they might think twice about releasing them.
That its an estimate is rather problematic and shows how lightly treated the “sport” is. Given pheasants feeding habits they are likely to have a rather negative impact on the overall ecosystem even if someone plants a couple of extra targets for them to hide in.
I am not opposed to hunting/shooting as such although personally I prefer to stick to using a camera to get the shots but increasingly the country “sports” do seem to be tilting it a tad to far in the “sportspersons” favour regardless of what needs killing to help those odds.

My parents used to live in an area where pheasants were reared. Every year the pheasants would be released and loads of them seen in the garden. None survived the winter. central Scotland

@Poly, if the pheasant breeders/hatcheries took any notice of socking density there wouldn’t be the need to over produce in the numbers they do. It’s costs under £15 to raise a pheasant from egg to release in 22weeks. Most of that is food. Vet care, record keeping, biosecurity are all sacrificed.

It’s not pretty, and it’s mostly out of sight.

I’m sure there are examples of bad practice around and it’s only small estates I’ve had exposure to where things are perhaps not so bad. But like all farmers (which is what they are) usually they have a pretty financially optimised model – add more birds to the shed and they start getting sick/stop growing/are unable to fly/die/need vets, add fewer and you get less to shoot at (and potentially have to pay more to keep them warm). The same is true for those £2.50 chickens (which take more food to grow really quickly), have an abattoir, plucking, and packing cost, and shipping to the supermarket + any margin they are making… how much is the farmer getting? <£2 and he wouldn’t be doing it if it wasn’t profitable so his costs are probably <£1.50… so 1/10th of the cost of your pheasant for something that’s kept for 1/4 of the time. Are you still sure the chicken has a life of luxury?

. Every year the pheasants would be released and loads of them seen in the garden. None survived the winter. central Scotland

At six weeks they are put in release pens in woods. Those pens are just temporary, you can’t contain them once they can fly. They are then free to wander, hopefully by feeding them and creating a good environment they stay close. Shooting season finishes on the 1st of February so I doubt none survived the winter, my dad always had some leftover come the spring which would then breed.

I can only go on what I and they saw. release pens were a hundred yards away. Either that shoot was very efficient at killing them or they died of the winter because by feb none were seen

Are you still sure the chicken has a life of luxury?

On balance I get where you’re coming from, who wouldn’t want the chance to escape…But I think the “free range” aspect of pheasants is far from the actuality. I’m not saying don’t eat it, but at least don’t kid yourself about it’s provenance.

Hopefully life will have settled down come spring, then I’ll take you for a wander/bike ride and we can play spot the pheasant. You can bring the pies.

Salperton Park a mixed pheasant and partridge shoot is under investigation after a red kite was found shot on the estate with such serious injuries that it must have been shot where it was found.

this was in March when the country was in lockdown that the shooting happened. Of course the omerta means no one has been prosecuted
this is why we need vicarious liability and licensing

Just to show that at least some of the partidge and pheasant shoots are part of the criminal conspiracy

Steven lolz at that

There’s been a lot of Kites killed by poisoning & shooting in North Yorkshire over the years. Nidderdales like the Bermuda Triangle of the raptor world.
Sickening.

One of the things that I’ve never understood (ok, I have it’s vested interests at stake) is why the economic impact of the environmental damage caused by shooting estates has not been added to the potential economic impact of sustainable tourism in Scotland.

Already today sustainable tourism brings in far more money (1billion +) compared to the income from shooting estates (10s million). If you were to factor in the environmental cost I suspect we would see a deficit or net cost to Scotland’s economic well-being.

There’s been a lot of Kites killed by poisoning & shooting in North Yorkshire over the years.

That is sickening. I’ve been lucky enough to see red kites fly over my house and I’m on the edge of Aberdeen.

The thing is that there is a strong cultural thing going on which requires an particular educational approach. Someone I know is a very committed social activist but because they grew up in the country are convinced that raptors and badgers are vermin.

One of the things that I’ve never understood (ok, I have it’s vested interests at stake) is why the economic impact of the environmental damage caused by shooting estates has not been added to the potential economic impact of sustainable tourism in Scotland.

I suspect it’s probably hard to quantify an economic comparison, but there must be stuff out there like Knepp/the River Otter beavers to give an idea of sustainable tourism incomes?

If anyone would genuinely like to know more about how driven shooting benefits the rural economy and offsets the biodiversity loss caused by modern agriculture, I’d be happy to tell you via DM and illustrate with pictures.

I’d happily trade places with one of my pheasants or partridges over any other animal in the U.K. food chain. My job literally relies on them being happy enough with their environment not to want to wander off.

We rent our shoot from two land owners and keep over 100 acres of cover crops from ending up as intensive sheep, dairy forage or arable and have implemented a 12 year forestry plan to rescue over 700 acres of neglected and under-thinned woodland. Our winter feeding benefits over-wintering song birds who would otherwise starve in the barren fields of grass, winter cereals and over-flailed hedgerows.

We reduce the populations of common mesopredators like foxes and crows to less than half of the baseline population during the spring and summer- benefiting the hares and ground nesting birds and wildfowl.

We provide a vital rural community to over 100 different people during the shooting season and with coppicing and work parties and bbq’s and breakfasts- through the spring and summer as well.

The habitat that holds game is good for wildlife too- that’s the crux. Every acre preserved and managed for pheasants and partridges is an acre kept out of the clutches of farmers or commercial foresters. They wanted to put a spring cereal crop back to silage grass this year so we rented it off them instead and have planted it with wild bird mix. That’s a great analogy for the entire industry.

It’s not all good- poor practice at release sites can damage localised areas but that’s like saying a new straw barn , poly tunnel of veg or a beef shed damages native scrub- utterly meaningless in isolation 🤷🏻‍♂️

If you want some science around the issue, check out these guys on Twitter https://twitter.com/pec_exeter?s=21

Feeding my pheasants this morning, I saw probably 50 individual raptors including a hen sparrowhawk and a kestrel. We have upwards of 70 kites here during silaging as well as multiple pairs of resident buzzards and kites. Literally dozens of tawny owls, 6 pairs of barn owls, kestrels, sparrowhawks, long eared owls, little owls, visits from the local town’s pair of perigrine’s, Ravens and an occasional Merlin and Hobby passing through.
We factor in buzzard kills at around 150-200 poults and have buzzard and kites nesting IN release pens. With adequate habitat provision- losses are minimised.

Is there bad practice in the industry- yes of course but compared to “U.K. farming inc” it’s practically saintly.

I’ve spent enough time arguing with pedants on forums and Twitter over the years to not want to be arsed to openly engage with any of the inevitable “yeah buts” this post is bound to bring so don’t even bother. If you genuinely want to know more then message me.

Shooting leases aren’t that hard to come by.
I could get a team of people together tomorrow to invest in a new shoot- so why not do the same for “nature”?
If you think the industry is not delivering for wildlife, club together and rent yourself an estate. I’d love to see someone produce the net benefits we do without the cash generated by our harvest of game.

I’d love to be a wildlife ranger and do all the cool conservation work I get to do, without all the mundane and relentless game rearing and feeding. But the jobs and the wages aren’t there: because taking land out of food production for wildlife is cripplingly expensive.

Huge news coming out of Wales

Trail Hunting Ban

Is a house of cards about to tumble on trail hunting?

Interesting piece on Farming Today this morning about wildlife crime increasing during lockdown – including a satellite tag for a golden eagle found wrapped in lead in a river!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0011rz7

Some positive news about beavers too.

https://www.gov.scot/news/protecting-scotlands-beaver-population/

And I’ve got some literally across the A9 from our house now, the trees they are in are visible from our garden. I’m rather happy about that.

Argaty Red Kites granted beaver translocation licence

written summary in the Guardian
I will wait for the apologists to announce how its all mistaken.

Love that post from crosshair – the usual shooters totally bogus justifications.  Yes partidge and pheasant shooting is not as damaging as driven grouse moors but nothing he says gets away from the proven killings of raptors on grouse moors, of the environmental damage grouse moors do, of the damage releasing non native birds does nor the illegality of the vast majority of the predator trapping

If you think the industry is not delivering for wildlife, club together and rent yourself an estate. I’d love to see someone produce the net benefits we do without the cash generated by our harvest of game.

Been done.  Langholm moor.

there is zero conservation value in shooting birds.  Its well known and well proven

Yes partidge and pheasant shooting is not as damaging as driven grouse moors

Probably. The massive increase in numbers really does need studying properly to see how it impacts invertebrates in particular.

Been done. Langholm moor.

Just one of many. RSPB reserves, the various Wildlife trusts, John Muir trust, NT and so on.

I can smell the reek from the muir burns in my house today. Huge burns on the Angus glens this last couple of dry days.

If you think the industry is not delivering for wildlife, club together and rent yourself an estate. I’d love to see someone produce the net benefits we do without the cash generated by our harvest of game

It’s not either or though – it’s taking a balanced approach that will vary from location to location.

I know a few estates around Loch Tay and Lyon who now take far more income from micro and medium hydro than they ever do from game shoots. Same again with holiday cottages for the hillwalkers or cyclists.

It also comes down to my really comments about how we value (and therefore financially support) the land. Do we value it only for game, and all our efforts and income derived from that. Or do we as a nation subsidise flood prevention by beavers, biodiversity and carbon capture of moors, recreation and climate adaptation in our forests, (etc). We should then support the landowner to make this happen financially and culturally.*

*Parkswatch make a good point recently about the Royal fam having degraded thier estate over generations, now taking state aid and claiming for ‘greening’ of a problem they caused and earned money out of…but in my view the long game and overall benefits outweigh the frustration of funding that change.

There’s some excellent examples of how to that have been around for many years.

Edit: case study: Kilmalieu in Ardgour. Estate shooting rights £40k per annum rent. Hydro schemes x2 £400k per annum, outdoor centre turnover £340k per annum and 6 staff, holiday cottages £35k and a part time job. Even if the shooting rights rent is quadrupled in income (it’s not), it only employs one part time lead factor and one part time ghillie, a few seasonal for the cull.

Probably. The massive increase in numbers really does need studying properly to see how it impacts invertebrates in particular.

No idea about this but the point about woodland / windbreaks instead of intensive agriculture is a real one.  Its the only fair point in that otherwise pure nonsense post

I do believe its important to keep an eye on the nuances and the secondary effects.  Not all shooting is the same

its the driven grouse moors that cause the real ecological damage and where all the raptors are killed and where all the illegal trapping of predators occurs

And lets just be clear – illegal killing of raptors is widespread on driven grouse moors, is in every area where there are grouse moors and is accepted practice in the industry.

Spent some time in Swaledale – it was very noticeable the complete lack of bird life of any variety, particularly the rabbit carcasses everywhere because of the lack of predators ‘ carrion feeders. It was an ecological desert.

I’m now lucky enough to live next to a nature reserve on Mull and there is no local bird shooting – the number of raptor/carrion species I can spot from my window is remarkable having moved from Speyside. We have Sparrowhawks, Kestrel and Buzzards, a pair of noisy Ravens nests in the woods, plus Hooded and Carrion Crows. A big factor are the eagles on the island which is a big tourism draw for everyone. Not just a few tweed clad, Range Rover drivers who drive like tossers on tiny roads, will quite happily shoot over someone’s house raining lead shot on the tiles, retire for a liquid lunch and come back ruddy-faced and do it again in the afternoon.

Eagles and otters on Mull bring an estimated 5 million a year onto the island in wildlife tourism – its actually reaching a point where its almost unsustainable the numbers of folk trying to see otters and disturbing them!

It is fabulous to see all the eagles tho – recently spent 3 days on the island and saw 9 eagles without even looking for them

compare that to the pair of golden eagles I saw in the angus glens.  they were killed a couple of months later

its the driven grouse moors that cause the real ecological damage

Whilst they do cause massive ecological damage I think fundamentally it comes down to how large and aggressive any shoot is run which can also apply to some pheasant shoots. Its a massive tilting off the ecosystem.
A small family/group shoot could well be a benefit but once they get commercial and so need to start making profits then I suspect the benefits are soon outweighed.

where all the raptors are killed and where all the illegal trapping of predators occurs

Sadly not true. Whilst they are definitely high on the list of “mysterious disappearances” its not exactly unknown on the pheasant shoots either. Its less visible though since the raptors are less likely to be tagged compared to the harriers and eagles and so you dont have the “unexpected failure” map giving the game away.