Fair enough dissonance – I really was just trying to get away from ” all shooting baaaad” and to remember nuance with this

Where my parents used to live was a small pheasant shoot.  they planted and maintained tree cover.

Deer need to be culled.

Driven grouse moors are indefensible

.  Its not all purely black and white

I’m still trying to make sense of this, having been a casual birdwatcher all my life and never having seen 50 raptors in a week, never mind a morning:

Feeding my pheasants this morning, I saw probably 50 individual raptors including a hen sparrowhawk and a kestrel.

So, not counting kestrels or sparrowhawks we have 48 more raptors, but he rules out:

We have upwards of 70 kites here during silaging as well as multiple pairs of resident buzzards and kites. Literally dozens of tawny owls, 6 pairs of barn owls, kestrels, sparrowhawks, long eared owls, little owls, visits from the local town’s pair of perigrine’s, Ravens and an occasional Merlin and Hobby passing through.

What were these other 48 raptors? Ospreys? 😀

Deer need to be culled.

Deer are also a tricky case. Since some estates deliberately do their best to boost the numbers beyond the natural carrying capability in order to ensure that their clients get to shoot something.
Plus there is the rabid opposition to reintroducing natural predators which would also help control their numbers.

That twitter link from Crosshair which is allegedly “science”

The posts are made by a Jo Madden, apparently linked in some way to Exeter University.  Can anyone prove that’s a real link, google was throwing up a Joanne/Joah Madden in the psychology department.

The posts are made by a Jo Madden, apparently linked in some way to Exeter University. Can anyone prove that’s a real link, google was throwing up a Joanne/Joah Madden in the psychology department.

“Joah Madden is an Associate Professor in the School of Psychology, working in the Centre for Research in Animal Behaviour” from here: Dr Joah Madden

Cheers Doug, that looks more credible.  His website looks like it was built by me whilst drunk.

Good news from the National Trust

I’ve been lucky enough to see red kites fly over my house and I’m on the edge of Aberdeen.

Walking down my road last week there was a red kite circling over the houses just down from where I live. My late g/f used to get quite excited if she saw it (almost certainly the same bird) flying over the gardens across the road from me.

They’re still not very common around these parts yet, it’s taken them some time to spread across from Berkshire and Oxfordshire where they were part of the reintroduction, and native birds from Wales are now spreading across the Severn because there’s so many of them over there now. I’ve seen one around Bath, and around the Avebury area.
Ravens are more common, I regularly see them around where I work in Westbury, and there’s a lot of open countryside around the estate, and I’ve seen a kite around there as well.
There’s a pair of Peregrines about too, haven’t seen them lately, but I’m pretty sure they’re about, judging by the carcasses they’ve left in the storage area I look after – not foxes, I’d see them about and we have a palisade security fence all round, and one kill took place in daylight, I think while I was having my lunch, because the dead bird was lying in the open between two rows of cars where I’d been earlier, missing it’s head, and with fresh blood around it.

The next day the remains were left on the roof of a car, a few bones and feathers!

Some more to ruminate on.

https://www.scotlandbigpicture.com/rewilding-stories/monarch-or-menace

Some really good news – Woodland Trust expanding hugely the area they own at Sheildaig. I am rather jealous of my old boss who is leading this project, interesting times. Note the comments about access for walkers and similar tourism.

I would like to know how much the Sheildaig Sea Eagle, the otters, the goats and more are worth in attracting tourism to the area… Perhaps we may see a reforested Torridon?

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/news/2021/12/thinking_big_-_woodland_trust_buy_highland_estate-72960

Compare: Ben Sheildaig estate managed without too many deer or sheep

With most of Couldoran Estate they just bought:

Superb, it genuinely took a double take (on my phone) for me to realise that first photo wasnt an over romanticized painting.

Can’t see first picture, got a link?

Wildlife tourism can be worth a lot.  I have heard 5 million for Mull.  Shooting is not a big money earner.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dz_xW6TW0AETG_B?format=jpg&name=4096×4096

Wildlife tourism can be worth a lot.

Agreed. And the clearer these financial benefits are, the more folk are tempted to make a change.

What it doesn’t address are the cultural issues around land ownership and land management. That may be harder to challenge.

Interesting point about red deer, we have a small herd that lives on the nature reserve next to us – they’re starting to spend more time hanging around the house, raiding the bird feeders and nibbling the plants. Talking to a local and the plunge in the price of venison means there’s no interest in shooting them – price dropped to 90p/kilo for a carcass and has only back up to £1.20 – the effort of getting up into the hill to drag back a carcass doesn’t make it worth it for the shooters. I hope for the deer’s sake we don’t have too hard a winter as it’s bad enough to walk into the kitchen in the morning and have 12 pairs of eyes staring back waiting for the carrots…

Shooting is not a big money earner.

Please , at least try to stay realistic.
Shooting is a huge money earner and you know it.

Shooting is a huge money earner and you know it.

It is a money earner.

I think though we’re starting to see other earning possibilities, possibly ones which change how land is valued and monetised. We need to change who owns the land or/and how we support those landowners with a just transition to new ways of earning and valuing land.

I went to go look at the figures on income.

https://www.nature.scot/sites/default/files/2019-07/Valuing%20naure%20based%20tourism%20in%20Scotland.pdf

Now I don’t think this is “either or”, we can have these incomes along side each other.

I also note reports around how this income could change, notably challenging low salaries in the shooting estates.

https://commonweal.scot/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/Work-The-Land-v2.pdf

I’m struggling to find information on the power generation income compared to wildlife tourism or shooting income.

I also note that all the reports I find written by the shooting industry conflate Scottish income and UK wide tax/income/statistics, and seem to get published in papers with rounded up figures that include agricultural subsidies, cottage rentals which are not related to the shooting etc – anything to suggest the industry is bigger than it is.

Now I don’t think this is “either or”, we can have these incomes along side each other.

Pretty much where I’m at.

Its not that hunting cant exist, it just needs to change to one where it doesnt turn the landscape into a single purpose environment. As is the case for many landscapes where hunting is prevalent around world.

On that topic, are there many other examples where large areas are managed so extensively in order to maximize the numbers of just 1 or 2 species for hunting?

That figure from Nature Scot for Field Sports is dramatically different to what Ive seen punted out by Scottish Hunting bodies.

Shooting generates some cash for sure, though the actual figures are over inflated. But it also does not generate anything like the opportunities that a green tourist economy would. Certainly there is space for hunting, shooting, fishing. But the days of the big estates with mono culture land use are over.

On that topic, are there many other examples where large areas are managed so extensively in order to maximize the numbers of just 1 or 2 species for hunting?

In the UK, see most of our upland that is deer, grouse and sheep orientated.

I am sure there must be some elsewhere in the world.

Living in a quite shooting centric part of the world I see very little impact on the local economy. Sure there a few people employed by the estates but as a percentage of the population, it’s tiny. Far far more employed in broader tourism. Through work I know a few people from families who own shooting estates. From the amount of diversifying they are doing on their estates it can’t be all that. Like pretty much every farmer I’ve ever known they are keen to tell you how tough it is to make a living but I am aware that not all farmers are necessarily being entirely realistic with those claims so I assume a bit of skepticism is needed with those claims from the estate owners too.

Also through work I spend quite a bit of time talking to Germans who are into shooting in Germany. Getting a licence there seems to be a big deal in terms of theoretical and practical exams. The shooting also seems to be worlds apart from what I witness with the pheasant and grouse shooting I see here. UK deer stalking I guess is closer. I’ve no idea if German hunting is a profitable enterprise for the land owners mind. I could imagine a rewilded Scotland giving German style hunting options if you wanted that as part of the mix.

Broadly, I can’t deny that in every fibre of my being I want to see the current state here to change – ethically, environmentally, aesthetically. I think I’m probably in the majority in that view, even here in the heart of hunter part of the uk. But the majority don’t hold much influence on this. The land owners seem more financially driven than by any other issue – a no brainer financial case for change has to be made to change their priorities if anything is going to change in my lifetime.

This article published today, though focused on sheep grazing management, is pretty interesting in terms of how the land changes over time if they’re excluded, follows on from the pics above: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/dec/17/graze-anatomy-fencing-fewer-sheep-richer-wildlife–aoe

^ good evidence for how much sheep and deer affect upland areas.

I observe the Ben Lawers photos are old(ish), likely a decade ago, as I have helped NTS via DofE groups to plant many thousands more trees up there, and the older established areas are becoming a seed source for the non-fenced areas now.

In the UK, see most of our upland that is deer, grouse and sheep orientated.

I am sure there must be some elsewhere in the world.

Sorry Matt, it was specifically elsewhere in the world I was querying.

Some more interesting reading.

Direct comparison between Norway and Scotland.

Huge difference, and really does blow a hole in the argument that grouse moor and deer forests in Scotland are managed for wildlife and diversity.

An interesting link buried in this about red deer too – basically ours in Scotland are small and impoverished it seems..

https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/features/bringing_back_the_birch_belt_-_scotlands_lost_mountain_woodland-14025?

Very true Matt – the scottish red deer are generally in poor condition – too many of them on the land leads to undernourishment and smaller deer survive better – along with the Victorians hunting out the big stags.  result our deer are small. malnourished and not healthy

That UKC article is really interesting thanks @matt_outandabout

Good read, thanks Matt.

All forms of hunting should be banned, INCLUDING FISHING(as a ‘sport’)

For starters we dont need to hunt, our food is prepared for us, and then there’s the humanitarian aspect. Can we really call ourselves civilized when the death of some creature that died in fear and alarm is the end goal.

^ eh?

dyna ti – whats the moral difference between killing your own food ( hunting) and getting someone else to do it ( shopping)?

We kill in a humane manner minimizing suffering. That is the goal, not to cause suffering which is the complete opposite to hunting where the animal doesnt meet a quick clean end.

I thought that was obvious.

@Matt 🙄

Hunting can be a quick end – at least as quick as an abattoir and you have to also factor in free range v factory farmed.  there really is no difference morally between hunting for the pot and eating meat from supermarkets.  Hunting not for the pot ie the killings of raptors and hares etc is indefensible

Hunting not for the pot ie the killings of raptors and hares etc is indefensible

I agree with you here yes.

there really is no difference morally between hunting for the pot and eating meat from supermarkets.

I don’t really agree with you here.

Meat is an intricate part of the human diet and has been since the dawn of time. While we take steps to minimize suffering. It is only those who choose a non meat lifestyle that claim it’s morality in eating meat at all. They try to set themselves on a higher moral ground, but where none exists.

I don’t think we can use a morality argument against eating meat, only about how it is slaughtered.

What is the moral difference?  Have you ever been in an abattoir? Seen animals killed for food?  there really is no moral differnce that I can see between factory farmed meat that goes thru an abbotoir to be killed and a deer shot for food out in the hills.

Have you ever been in an abattoir? Seen animals killed for food?

More importantly, have you ?.

Or do you just base your thoughts on the matter from what you think or want to believe actually goes on.

Nobody is claiming its not a horrific environment, dealing with death, but the point at hand is on killing without cruelty, not really whether you agree with it or not.

yes I have.  Killing without cruelty – there is no real difference in the cruelty in an abattoir ( and the transport to it) or on the moorsides IMO

I eat meat but I have no illusions that meat is animals and they are killed for food nor have I any illusions about factory farming or hunting.

When I ate meat I killed it myself on moral grounds because I had seen how farmed animals were treated.
I wasn’t perfect at it but managed a good few years without buying meat. Any that I did I was very choosy about.
Hunting and eating it is very much the moral high ground.