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German Market . . . .
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jimjamFree Member
ernie_lynch
Well that doesn’t make him a devout Muslim. Not unless all devout Muslims are on this terrorist watch list.
His criminality went much further back than a year, most of his life in fact, apparently.
He was in regular contact with Abu Walaa, a radical cleric described as Germany’s number one ISIS recruiter. He was in contact with ISIS. Not the type of people you knock about with if you just have a passing interest in religion.
Muslim terrorists pose a threat to our society, so too do bigots who choose to demonise a religion with their divisive and predictable knee-jerk reactions.
People like jambalaya, Tom_W and Nigel Farage are part of the problem, not the solution.
We are discussing a mass murder in the name of religion and you are worried about bigotry. The flavour of Islam which Saudi Arabia has spent hundreds of billions of dollars and several decades exporting all over the world is true bigotry.
One of the most dangerous motifs playing out here is people deliberately trying to muddy the waters, even going so far as to declare a ISIS attack as “nothing to do with Islam”. Of course, there are degrees to this, but when the PC brigade tie themselves in knots trying to explain how un islamic islamic murderers are they drive moderates to the right and people on the right to the far right. And of course all the while calling anyone who disagrees with them racists, bigots, islamophobes, xenophobes etc.
We can quite easily talk about white/christian/european born murderers/terrorists without demonising an entire religion/culture/people, there is no reason to behave any differently towards people who happen to be Muslim.
No, you can’t actually. Try discussing brexit or Trump without Nazism, racism, etc etc etc.
captainsasquatchFree MemberTurn off your computers.
I was going to propose closing this, the referendum and any other mega threads for a couple of days. I’m sure people have families to celebrate with.
jimjamFree MemberSeriously? Can’t we just opt in or out of the discussion as we see fit?
aracerFree MemberHe was in regular contact with Abu Walaa, a radical cleric described as Germany’s number one ISIS recruiter. He was in contact with ISIS. Not the type of people you knock about with if you just have a passing interest in
religionterrorism.Fixed
jimjamFree Memberaracer
interest in religion
interest in
religionterrorismFixed [/quote]
Religiously motivated terrorism.
ISIS – Why we hate hate you.
“We hate you, first and foremost, because you are disbelievers; you reject the oneness of Allah – whether you realize it or not – by making partners for Him in worship, you blaspheme against Him, claiming that He has a son, you fabricate lies against His prophets and messengers, and you indulge in all manner of devilish practices.”
We hate you because your secular, liberal societies permit the very things that Allah has prohibited while banning many of the things He has permitted, a matter that doesn’t concern you because you Christian disbelief and paganism 32 separate between religion and state, thereby granting supreme authority to your whims and desires via the legislators you vote into power.”
(from Dabiq, the ISIS propaganda magazine)
ircFree MemberHis lifelong criminal career appears not to have been motivated by religion. There is no evidence that he was a devote Muslim.
Is the fact he shouted “Allah Akbar” while shooting the Italian cop not a bit of a clue to his motovation?
jambalayaFree MemberHe wasn’t religiously motivated he just went on the ISIS social media sites for the cool music and photos plus of course the activity suggestions.
mikewsmithFree MemberIs the fact he shouted “Allah Akbar” while shooting the Italian cop not a bit of a clue to his motovation?
His final ones maybe. Did he seek out the isis people or was he led to them? Did he wake up a terrorist or did somebody take him there? Was he the sort of person who could snap and do this before or after he met with the lead recruitment team for isis who specialise in radicalisation and channeling anger and hate into a single direction.
Given the number of people in the US who manage to summon up the level of hate and anger to go on bigger killing sprees all they need to do is go looking in the right places. Religious recruitment often looks to those with no hope or at the bottom and tries to lift them out. The cynical can then mould the person they rebuild.
But as you say it’s simple he woke up, decided to be a terrorist and googled it.ernie_lynchFree MemberHis lifelong criminal career appears not to have been motivated by religion. There is no evidence that he was a devote Muslim.
Is the fact he shouted “Allah Akbar” while shooting the Italian cop not a bit of a clue to his motovation? [/quote]
It’s a clue that he claimed to be a Muslim, not that he was a devout Muslim.
The people at the forefront of the fight against Al-Qaeda and ISIS are overwhelmingly Muslim, and Muslims indisputably bear the brunt of Al-Qaeda and ISIS violence and killings.
I suspect most Muslims would consider these terrorists to be infidels, and certainly when you look as the reported history of individuals it invariably seems to involve a life of debauchery – fornication, narcotics, alcohol, not what you would expect from a devout Muslim.
No one would dispute that religion was an intrinsic component of the terrorism which existed during the Troubles in Northern Ireland, and yet I don’t ever recall members of the Provisional IRA or the Protestant paramilitaries being described as “religious nutters” or devout Christians.
I see no reason for a different set of rules for Muslims.
jambalayaFree MemberSo he travelled freely from Berlin to Holland to France to Italy. All whilst carrying a gun and being Europe’s most wanted man. Police say he was handed a SIM card in Holland by an acomplice before travelling to Turin to meet up with others. Madness.
squirrelkingFree MemberPutting that into context:
So he travelled freely from New York to Pennsylvania to Maryland to Delaware. All whilst carrying a gun and being America’s most wanted man. Police say he was handed a SIM card in Philidelphia by an acomplice before travelling to Newark to meet up with others. Madness.
It’s not really that shocking is it?
captainsasquatchFree MemberSo he travelled freely from Berlin to Holland to France to Italy. All whilst carrying a gun and being Europe’s most wanted man. Police say he was handed a SIM card in Holland by an acomplice before travelling to Turin to meet up with others. Madness.
Given that the London bombers travelled doen from Leeds, why is this madness?
nickcFull Memberbecasue National borders are important to folk like Jamby, how would you know you’re better than others otherwise? 🙄
kimbersFull MemberIt is madness, we must all live in fear and build bigger walls!!
Or we could integrate and cooperate more, especially in a political and policing sense
captainsasquatchFree MemberIt is madness, we must all live in fear and build bigger walls!!
Live in fear? Pah! Some of my best friends are terrorists. 😛
ircFree MemberOr we could integrate and cooperate more, especially in a political and policing sense
You can’t integrate with people who don’t want to integrate.
more than 100,000 British Muslims sympathize with suicide bombers
23% of British Muslims said Islamic Sharia law should replace British law in areas with large Muslim populations.
52% of the Muslims surveyed said they believe homosexuality should be illegal,
Thirty-nine percent of Muslims surveyed believe women should always obey their husbands, compared to 5% for non-Muslims. One in three British Muslims refuse completely to condemn the stoning of women accused of adultery.
https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7861/british-muslims-survey
squirrelkingFree Membermore than 100,000 British Muslims sympathize with suicide bombers
The survey linked to was actually 1081 muslims, of which 9% sympathised with the use of violence in political protest. This was distinct from the question of :
to what extent do you sympathise with or
condemn people who…
Base: All respondents (Muslims survey: 1,081; Control group survey: 1,008)
Commit terrorist actions as a form of political protest?Which was actually 4% that sympathised to one extent or another so 40 people – see pages 259 and 608
https://www.icmunlimited.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Mulims-full-suite-data-plus-topline.pdf
Lesson here is not to blindly believe things that pander to your own prejudices.
captainsasquatchFree MemberThe survey linked to was actually 1081 muslims, of which 9% sympathised with the use of violence in political protest. This was distinct from the question of :
As an aside, and taking one man’s freedom fighter, etc. I wholeheartedly disagree with the terrorising of innocent people, but can understand how one is driven to extreme acts. So, it’s a question, if directly linked to terrorism, that I’d struggle to answer. I do sympathise with someone who is put under such pressure that they can’t rationally find a response, I can’t sympathise with someone who kills innicents.
Make of that what you will.squirrelkingFree MemberIndeed. There is also a marked distinction between sympathy and support. I personally don’t like the wording of that question as the opposite of condemnation isn’t sympathy.
slowoldmanFull MemberI believe Drac is referring to this:
“The 615-page survey found that more than 100,000 British Muslims sympathize with suicide bombers and people who commit other terrorist acts. Moreover, only one in three British Muslims (34%) would contact the police if they believed that somebody close to them had become involved with jihadists”.captainsasquatchFree MemberJihadists being? I can’t work out whether a Jihadi is like an army cadet, or one of those god botherers that knocks on the door and tries to convert you to their particular brand of religion or, in fact, an actual terrorist. Gosh.
squirrelkingFree MemberIndeed. There’s the popular interpretation and then the factual interpretation. As I said, the questions are crap.
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