Forgive me…we haven't done Middle Lane Hoggers for a while have we?

Well most of my post was maths, the other bit was suggesting that it’s not unreasonable to pull in when you don’t need to pull out again for over 30s or over 1/2 a mile. Which quite clearly isn’t bollox. But then I’d not expect your judgement of the quality of posts to be any better than your driving.

So i assume Graham, you’ve never broken any speed limit in your life?

Or perhaps you only do so when you see fit?

A good driver will adapt to their surroundings. This is generally what we don’t find with a lot of people on motorways.

If you need to go over 70 to slot into lane 3 to get past someone doing 60 in lane 2, it’s safer than pulling out, refusing to speed up and slowing everyone behind you.

If there is no-one behind you, you don’t have to persistently weave between lanes 1 & 2.

When you are in lane 1, judge what’s coming and time your overtake.

If you are in lane 2 and you see someone in lane 1 approaching an overtake, move into lane 3 if safe.

It’s not bloody rocket science

What are you driving qualifications then Wilburt?

What are yours, maxtorque?

Or perhaps you only do so when you see fit?

Indeed. When I see fit.

So if I’m overtaking at 70 then clearly I don’t see fit at that point for whatever reason.

The addition of some wazzock driving two inches from my bumper and flashing his lights because he can’t be arsed to change lanes does absolutely nothing to change my mind, though it may cause me to ease off the gas a bit.

+1 – I’ll even sometimes speed up a bit as maxt suggests – nothing to do with somebody else forcing or even expecting me to do it, if I’m sitting on cruise at 70 or 75 as I often do and come up on somebody in the middle lane doing a few mph less, then if there’s faster traffic coming up behind I’ll accelerate a bit as I overtake in order to spend less time in the right hand lane to be courteous to other drivers and avoid creating needless congestion. Of course I’m less inclined to bother doing that if somebody sits on my bumper.

I don’t believe it is good driving to dogmatically stick to a given speed when increasing it slightly for a short while will improve the experience of other drivers (even if they are breaking the law).

TL:DR

The English are shite drivers and lane hoggers. (massive sweeping generalisation)

molgrips

but I don’t therefore conclude that I can drive as fast as I fancy

Neither do i, if that speed would result in causing another driver an inconvenience.

It’s obvious that excessive speed is just as inappropriate as insufficient speed.

However, we have a “driving system” to enable drivers at ALL speeds to go about their tasks in the safest, most efficient fashion.

If i’m doing 100mph on the mway, and i see a car in the inside lane, doing 70, about to pull out to overtake a truck, then i will moderate my speed to avoid that car. In return, it would be courteous of that other car to accept there is another car near them (looking in your mirrors helps here…….) and that they ARE driving faster than them (for whatever reason) and that they therefore should complete that maneuver in a safe yet timely manner to cause minimal inconvenience.

it’s a two way street.

The “System” says, unless overtaking keep left. it’s very simple. if the driver travelling slower thinks “sod you, i’m just going to dawdle past this truck, i don’t care if i cause you to brake, you are speeding anyway” then all they are doing is putting EVERYONE at a higher than necessary risk, causing friction between drivers (which can escalate) and make the faster driver more likely to either tailgate them, undertake them.

It’s amazing how much smoother and safer you can make YOUR journey when you drive to not inconvenience others, even if that means changing the way or speed at which you drive……

captainsasquatch

What are yours, maxtorque?

If you want the full list it’ll take a while 😉

1) I hold a full, clean, UK driving licence, and have done so for 25 years, with ZERO accidents
2) I hold a MSA National A RACE competition licence
3) I hold a MSA National A Rally competition licence
4) I hold a FIA International competition licence
5) I am an IAM Advanced driver
6) I hold a Prodrive “Red” licence (highest level for test track activities and driver tuition).
7) I hold Full Facility access licences for Millbrook, MIRA, Nardo test facilities, including unlimited dynamic assessment
8) I hold the highest level licences/driver qualifications from the following OEMS: JLR, Aston Martin, Mclaren Automotive, Bentley Motors, and Ford.
9) I hold a Nurbugring Industry pool licence.

The only thing i haven’t got, and would quite like, is an HGV qualification.

And probably a few others i’ve forgotten 😉

The “System” says, unless overtaking keep left. it’s very simple. if the driver travelling slower thinks “sod you, i’m just going to dawdle past this truck…

If they are passing a truck then they ARE overtaking. How is that not the “System”?

To be honest if I looked in the mirror and saw you bearing down at 100mph then I wouldn’t start an overtake till you were past me.

I wouldn’t want to get in your way, and thus your behaviour has inconvenienced me – you got in my way.

GrahamS

I wouldn’t want to get in your way, and thus your behavior has inconvenienced me – you got in my way

No, no i haven’t. You have (graciously) inconvenienced yourself, which is fine (as it was your choice to do so)

The trick to real world driving is to neither inconvenience others OR yourself. This takes excellent observation, positive defensive driving techniques, and above all, the willingness to want to better your driving.

The trick to real world driving is to neither inconvenience others OR yourself.

So what about the situation where you have to brake and pull in to let some aggressive driver past?

If you want the full list it’ll take a while 😉

1) I hold a full, clean, UK driving licence, and have done so for 25 years, with ZERO accidents
2) I hold a MSA National A RACE competition licence
3) I hold a MSA National A Rally competition licence
4) I hold a FIA International competition licence
5) I am an IAM Advanced driver
6) I hold a Prodrive “Red” licence (highest level for test track activities and driver tuition).
7) I hold Full Facility access licences for Millbrook, MIRA, Nardo test facilities, including unlimited dynamic assessment
8 )I hold the highest level licences/driver qualifications from the following OEMS: JLR, Aston Martin, Mclaren Automotive, Bentley Motors, and Ford.
9) I hold a Nurbugring Industry pool licence.

The only thing i haven’t got, and would quite like, is an HGV qualification.

And probably a few others i’ve forgotten 😉
Should I be impressed? Racing licences don’t have anything to do with road driving and a good few of them aren’t that difficult to buy. 😉

eh? you asked what my qualifications are, so i listed them for you.

Even if you can’t move left, and someone has caught you from behind, perhaps considering speeding up slightly (yes, even if you then break the speed limit, as the risk from doing 75mph in a 70 limit is WAY lower than the risk posed by two cars, doing 70, but 3 feet apart with both drivers getting road rage….)

if someone has caught me up and is all over my ar5e, desperate to get past, the no frickin’ way am I going to speed up a little. I’m going to hold back and drive a speedo indicated 69mph, I’m going to ignore you in my mirrors. you’ll probably be flooring trying to get past me too the moment I do indicate to pull back in, and I’m not going to hurry that either. I’d rather you spack me up the back end at 69 than 75.
That’s also one reason I tend to sit in the middle lane on the autobahn, and tend not to use the fast lane. Yes I’ve been hassled at 160kph by AMGs, GT3s, etc. because I’m only overtaking at 160 and not the 200 they were doing, and want to be doing.
IDGAS how many licenses or permits you can brag about either.
Flash your blue lights and I’ll move over quicker.

The trick to real world driving is to neither inconvenience others OR yourself

I have no idea how that could possibly happen in that scenario, or many other every day scenarios where something has to give and someone has to yield or take action.

So I’ll stick to my pretend world driving.

(Before you ask: UK driving license (for less than a decade) + 25 metre swimming badge (front crawl) and a Blue Peter badge)

You’re forgetting this is STW maxt, it’s compulsory to be derisory when somebody provides exactly the information you asked for.

FWIW I’ve written my car off by running into the back of somebody else and rolled my car onto a police car coming the other way on a singletrack road, so I’m not about to start bragging about how wonderful a driver I am.

Even though maxtorque could possibly be called Matt in another life, I tend to agree with him more than most folk on this thread.

I’ve no advanced driving qualifications, but drive 40k a year, have held a driving licence for 27 years and in that time have had a grand total of 3 points, one major (not at fault accident) and 1 minor (slow bump) at fault accident

They’re hardly qualifications, if you simply buy them or they are competition related, or give you a position to pontificate on a road driving thread, do they? 😉

They are right though captain. It’s a bit rich to ask someone to wave their willy for you, and then laugh at it when they do.

andytherocketeer I’d rather you smack me up the back end at 69 than 75.

Well, call me old fashion, but i’d rather not get rammed off the road at any speed……..

If you saw a crazy man running down the highstreet with a handgun, would you go and trip him up?

You know nothing about the other driver, other than they are driving (on average) faster than you. They could be a father rushing to hospital after his daughter has fallen off a horse, they could be a carpet salesman rushing to a late meeting, or a drink/drug fuelled maniac, or they could just be an everyday “idiot” who wants to do 100mph everywhere. And yet, in each and every case, the BEST thing you can do, the thing that results in the lowest risk to yourself (any everyone around you) is to just get out of their way. Let them tailgate the car ahead of you, let them road rage that ignorant sod (who thinks it’s fun to hold em up).

Occupying the moral high ground from your hospital bed, or worse, the morgue, is seriously overrated imo……

Two accidents here! Both entering roundabouts when the eejits in front of me didn’t spot the gap I had. I was only trying to make bloody progress. 😀

GrahamS
I have no idea how that could possibly happen in that scenario, or many other every day scenarios where something has to give and someone has to yield or take action.

Now you’ll probably disagree with me here, but the first step to understanding how, is to get some advanced driving tuition……

You don’t need to be Sterling Moss, or want to be able to lap the N’ring in sub 7min, but a basic advanced course (you can start with cheap or even free “assessments” from most local IAM branches) will probably open up a whole new driving world to you.

(PS, don’t think i’m all about classic “advanced driving”. it has it’s place, its methods and routines are very good as a starter, but it’s too rigid and a bit stale for the real world in 2015 imo (i’ll probably get my IAM quals revoked for saying that…… lol)

Never done that, probably more luck than judgement. Though since learning about saccades I no longer tend to drive in a way which would result in that as I like to give myself enough time to make sure (in no way critical, but I thought it a point worth making for us imperfect drivers who’d like to be a little better).

roffle @ moral highground.
once I let you past, I’ll also hold well back when you tickle the next car up the road on the ar5e, because I really don’t want you driving anywhere near me.
indeed the most recent spack on the autobahn that I witnessed was exactly that. one minute being “urged” to pass a truck a bit faster. next minute, 2 “floor it and stamp on the brakes to tailgate the next car” drivers ran out of skill.
impressive how many bits can fall off a modern car. A3 between Frankfurt and Cologne, 2 cars, enough bits to take out all 3 lanes and the hard shoulder.

I may have held them up for what, 20 seconds? Let’s round it up and call it a minute. Naff all compared to the time it’ll take for the cops and ADAC trucks to turn up to clear up all their mess.

ferrals – Member
I can only think people who really get wound up about this speed to much time in the car. But then we only have one motorway in Wales and it only has two lanes.
POSTED 4 HOURS AGO # REPORT-POST

Pfft. You south-westerners. With your 2 lanes. I get 3 lanes to play with every day on the bike. To clarify a few niggles: there are no slow or fast lanes. Merely the near side lane which all traffic should be in unless they are overtaking.
I observe many things on my commute and mostly I observe middle and outer lane drivers all in lines. I am an inside lane pedant and it’s likely I’m travelling faster than the rest of the traffic.

But not when they don’t have any relevance to the discussion. Should I hit apexes when cornering? Should I use kerbs in order to help me get better exit line and speed on the exit? Etc.
This is a discussion on middle lane hogging and not whether an Aston Martin is better than a Bentley through Druids, so the majority of the qualifications mean squat.
Finally maxtorque was begging the question by calling out wilburt, so I thought I’d oblige.
Just to qualify, I’ve never been in a racing car, I’ve never associated with racing drivers, I’ve never driven performance cars and I’ve most certainly not got any qualifications that contain the word advanced. 😉

captainsasquatch
They’re hardly qualifications, if you simply buy them or they are competition related

It’s taken me over 20 years in the automotive industry to accrue those quals, none of them can “just” be bought, and a large number take years to earn. Turn up at Mclaren and ask to take a P1 out on a road assessment and see how you get on, for example……… (hint, nobody lets just anyone take a £1M, 217mph car out on the public road. In fact, it’s significantly harder to get the road based authorities than the track ones)

However, what they don’t do is make me a “good” driver. Like mountain bike skills, that can only be earned through continued hard work, external and self assessment, and the aptitude to want to keep learning and improving.

@aracer Hey listen, I’ve kinda learned my lesson (you’d think once would be enough…and I was a lot younger 😳 ) but now I keep my eyes on the guy in front until it’s my turn. Thing is, if they’d been making progress like I was, it wouldn’t have happened, so in maxtorque’ world, they were to blame for it really.*

Funny thing is, despite me getting out, holding my hands up and saying “Sorry mate, completely my fault, how can we sort this out?”, neither of them ever let me fix their cars. One of them said “Oh, look, it’s my landlord’s car, I’ll just tell him somebody smashed into it in a car park…” 😯 So, I’m guessing uninsured for him and the other guy…I dunno…chased him three or four times to fix it and gave up.

*yes, I’m taking the Mick.

It’s taken me over 20 years in the automotive industry to accrue those quals, none of them can “just” be bought,

The MSA can “just” be bought though, can’t it? I could rock up tomorrow and walk away with a licence after paying my fee. It wouldn’t make me a good road driver, would it? More aware in certain aspects, but not better or put me in a position to tell others how to drive.
I’m not doubting your history or credentials or ability to drive competition cars. I’m questioning the relevance of this in regard to middle lane hogging.

However, what they don’t do is make me a “good” driver.

But you still felt the need to question wilburt’s qualifications. ❓

However if I am passing two cars close together and they fly up behind me at 100mph, tailgate, and flash their lights to try and force me out of their way then they can bite me, frankly. Wait for the road to clear before speeding, like everyone else.

Similar thing happened to a policeman friend of mine who was getting harangued by an irate driver behind. He waited for a significant period of time and then pulled back in when safe. The chap behind pulled alongside to overtake and started to mouth off until my mate held up his warrant badge. Apparently he dropped back and stayed a few car lengths behind for quite some time!

Unfortunately, as the road (which was a dual carriageway) was congested there was no point flahing my mate to get out of the way as he could only make

This is why driving in France is awesome – there are no middle lanes!

No, you just can’t just “buy” a National A licence. Whilst it is not difficult to get, it requires you to be tested in theory and in practice.

I’d agree that those qualifications themselves don’t grant me any additional relevance, what they show is the capability for reasoned assessment of both my driving and that of others. At Prodrive, one of my jobs was to introduce Police Class 1 drivers to the capabilities of their patrol cars. Those sorts of things teaches one a lot about “drivers” both good and bad.

And i’m not telling you how to drive, all i ask is for you to apply consideration and courtesy to your driving. That’s it really 😉

@sasquatch, You’ve got to understand that every driving thread is an opportunity for maxtorque to:

a) Use the phrase “Speed doesn’t kill. Inappropriate speed kills.”
b) provide various arguments why he should be able to drive at whatever speed he wants…
by
c) Insinuating that anybody who just wants to get from A to B in one piece without breaking the speed limit (usually molgrips) is somehow an idiot who inconveniences anybody who believes he or she is too good a driver* for speed limits to apply.
*supported with lots of qualifications.

Look, as night follows day, he does it. In every thread. Even ones that aren’t really about speeding.

ell_tell

Similar thing happened to a policeman friend of mine who was getting harangued by an irate driver behind. He waited for a significant period of time and then pulled back in when safe.

Proving that even those people tasked with “upholding the law” are not perfect drivers! Anything you do to “escalate” the situation is a poor choice. If that is slowing down excessively, brake checking them, or waiting for a longer than normal period of time to move to the left, anything that could be construed to annoy the other driver.

If a policeman did that during a driving assessment they would be failed and with good reason.

Now you’ll probably disagree with me here, but the first step to understanding how, is to get some advanced driving tuition……

Probably not a bad idea, though to be honest having heard you advocate speeding and driving at 100mph, as well as apparently condoning tailgating and hassling other drivers to get out your way, frankly I’m not convinced that’s a path I want to take even if it did make me a better driver. 😕

I still don’t understand the need for maxtorque (the name should give it away though) to pull wilburt and ask for his qualifications.

Look, as night follows day, he does it. In every thread. Even ones that aren’t really about speeding.

Is he The Stig? Or worse, Clarkson? 😆

Nice try Darcy, nice try 😉

Is he The Stig? Or worse, Clarkson?

And if he was, he’d be a better driver than anyone on here, no doubt

@maxtorque to be fair to my mate, he was off duty so in his own car. And it was a dual carriageway in rush hour traffic so hardly trying to “escalate” the situation and more a case of there was no where for him to go.

I reckon people like this just fail to plan their journey properly so drive like a a hole in an attempt to make up time.