it’s because lane 1of4 often becomes an exit lane – and i don’t want to go to Peterborough.

This is M25 – there’s miles of it so it becoming an exit lane is not the reason. The crazy folk that designed the M25 often get you to exit the road and join another by filtering to the right in any case.

As above – if you pull into slow lane yourself you can’t get back out again because of constant stream in the middle even though they can see you want to get out and lane 3 is empty.

If the first time you think about looking for a gap to pull back out is when you’ve run out of road, that’s just a lack of forward planning.

He thought that the lanes were actually slow, medium, and fast lanes.

How old was he, out of interest? I’ve heard that chestnut mostly from drivers who passed their tests considerably earlier than I did.

You are referring to overtaking on the left which is the conscious changing of lands to pass on the left and illegal, which itself is different from what you actually describe, which is just lane traffic moving at different speeds and NOT illegal.

Neither of those things are illegal, popular misconception. The Highway code says “do not” move to pass on the left, not that you “MUST NOT”; there’s no specific law to back it up. It could be construed as any number of the “without due care” family of offences though, if you’re driving sufficiently like a fin de la cloche generally.

I suspect he thought I should move into the gaps between trucks, I disagreed. and still do.

Why, out of interest? What aversion do you have to a gap of nearly a quarter of a mile?

wierd. when I used to commute on the M4 Bristol-London, it used to be “fast” lane hoggers, nose-tail tailgating to the point that the outside lane could no longer sustain a steady 70mph.

I would “hog” the centre lane, if you can call “having a lane to myself” hogging, and slowly passing the “fast lane” cars on the inside… erm I mean overtaking cars and trucks in the “slow lane” whilst drivign the speed of the traffic and passing on the inside of the reps because they keep having to brake.

Might have just been a Friday night, desperate to get home, effect.

Maths, my favourite. So the trucks are doing 56mph. You’re doing a real 70mph (if cruise set to 75). Closing speed 14mph or 6.3m/s. If you pulled in 50m in front of a truck, then it would take you 32s to cover 200m of the gap and be 50m behind the front truck at which point it would be reasonable to pull out again. 32s seems a perfectly reasonable amount of time to pull in for. You really are part of the problem.

(couldn’t care less what anybody else did on your bumper, that’s whataboutery).

Anyone hear that supposed driving “expert” on Breakfast TV the other week. Northern bloke used to be on Fifth Gear or something, actually said “Changing lanes is the most dangerous thing you can do on a motorway” !! On TV!!

It (probably) is, of the things you should be doing anyway. Which are driving at 50-70mph in a straight line, and that’s about it.

Well there’s a risk of igniting the touchpaper here but I’m going to say it anyway.

Drove roughly 50 miles of the M5 north of Bristol the other week and passed 12 cars (yes I counted them) who’d you’d clearly describe as ‘middle lane hoggers’. They were not moving over for anything, just sat there effectively turning the three lane M5 into a two lane road and seemingly unaware of the problems they were causing.

So I looked over at each and every driver as I passed to assess who the culprits were. One was an elderly man, one a young girl and the rest were all persons whom from their appearance suggested that they (or their family in the past) were of foreign origin. I’ve also experienced this on other occasions.

So before anyone pulls the PC or Racism card, I’m merely stating what I’ve observed on that journey and several others, that’s all – please don’t draw any other assumptions from this because the likelyhood is you’d be very wrong.

It might be that more attention and resourse is given to educating/training not just UK drivers in general but also people from abroad, who are either driving on a foreign licence (passed their test abroad), or who are learning to drive from a UK family that has a recent history from a country where the rules of the road are completely different to our own (or non existent). Makes sense surely?

At the same time though I think motorway training should be given to everyone, and can’t understand why there’s no compulsory motorway training required once someone has passed their test? Seems to work in Germany where lane discipline is pretty good.

I live in the North where there are only a few million of us.
So every time I end up driving south of the Lakes ,I do indeed think,

holy shit! WTF is going on with middle lane driving?

.

I blame people being stupid with cruise control,people being stupid without cruise control ,and an increase of stupid people per mile due to the sheer volume of traffic.
Oh,and don’t get me started on the lane swervers and drifters,they really scare me.

1. People obviously don’t like going into the inside lane. Otherwise they’d do it more willingly.
2. If people don’t like doing it there must be a reason.
3. The reason might just be that it’s a bugger to get out again when they meet a genuinely slow vehicle.

On that basis it looks like the inside lane is a lost cause and is best left to genuinely slow vehicles, and of course pedantic drivers weaving in and out of the lanes to show how it should be done.

Obviously when the traffic is really quiet it’s not a problem, but in those circumstances it doesn’t matter if there are only two functioning lanes anyway.

Drove roughly 50 miles of the M5 north of Bristol the other week and passed 12 cars (yes I counted them) who’d you’d clearly describe as ‘middle lane hoggers’. They were not moving over for anything, just sat there effectively turning the three lane M5 into a two lane road and seemingly unaware of the problems they were causing.

Yet you were able to pass them, and the problem is where?
My beef is the outside lane hoggers which means that no one can overtake no one.

One was an elderly man, one a young girl

How do you know that these weren’t of foreign heritage too? In my experience the British are some of the worst divers that I’ve come across, so I wouldn’t get too comfortable slagging off Johnny Foreigner as it does make you look a touch racist (especially as you were only able to go on apperance).

and of course pedantic drivers weaving in and out of the lanes to show how it should be done.

“dippers” is what I call them (short for something else in a car beginning with “dip”). pass, instantly pull in as if to prove they are overtaking, and instantly pull out again to pass the next car.
you can pass more than one vehicle without it being called lane hogging.

At the same time though I think motorway training should be given to everyone, and can’t understand why there’s no compulsory motorway training required once someone has passed their test?

agree there.
I had some lessons before even passing the test on the A2 between M25 junction and before it becomes M2. To all intents and purposes, that’s motorway.

Seems to work in Germany where lane discipline is pretty good.

wouldn’t quite go that far, but slow, middle and fast lanes can have much greater speed differential. Way more trucks on the inside, so way more staying in the middle passing them. I leave the outside for the Cayenne Sports and AMGs that floor it, make a loud noise, then stamp on brakes and tailgate the next car up the road until they can welly it again.

I wouldn’t get too comfortable slagging off Johnny Foreigner as it does make you look a touch racist (especially as you were only able to go on apperance)

Just saying what I’ve seen – please don’t shoot the messenger. If there’s a genuine specific problem there with foreigners not knowing how to drive in the UK (and I don’t know if there is – I can only go on my own limited observations) then it should perhaps be addressed no?

It’s no more racist than a campaign suggesting that people should give up deep fried mars bars because they are bad for your health – and for maximum effectiveness (and best use of resource) targeting that campaign towards Scotland only (where the majority of the said mars bars are eaten) rather than the whole of the UK. Would that make it racist in your eyes, or just common sense?

“dippers” is what I call them (short for something else in a car beginning with “dip”). pass, instantly pull in as if to prove they are overtaking,

Had one of those today. Low-end Alfa, usually a sign of a try-hard. Tailgated me at 70 as I overtook, let him past, watched as he weaved in an out to prove some kind of point.

I tend to use the shiny, mysterious thing attached to my windscreen to work out if I need to pull over into smallish gaps. If I’m not actually holding anyone up then why pull over?

surprise, majority of people not good at high skill activity for which limited training received

stay off the freeway, neo

So glad I don’t have the M1\M62 commute to Leeds anymore.

On a morning, Junction 44 used to be my pet hate, lane one stops for the exit and lane two starts pulling into lane three rather than drive next to stationary traffic, there would be this bizarre situation where the outside lane is crawling and the middle lane is empty.

It got worse as you’d could be driving happily in the empty lane two until Mr Audi pulls out without looking and overtakes a few cars, then stops and waits for someone to let him back in lane one.

Coming home it was the slip road queues and Mr Audi again using the hard shoulder to undertake traffic. Often enough that plod occasionally parked at the top of the slip road and flagged all the Mr Audis over.

3. The reason might just be that it’s a bugger to get out again when they meet a genuinely slow vehicle.

As I said earlier,

If the first time you think about looking for a gap to pull back out is when you’ve run out of road, that’s just a lack of forward planning.

“Genuinely slow vehicles” don’t spontaneously appear six feet from your front bumper. If you’re aware of your surroundings and thinking ahead it’s really, really not difficult to pull out again in the vast majority of cases.

@Cougar, Aracer conveniently provides the “maths” on why I DONT pull in between traffic moving significantly slower than me just so pedants who must be doing significantly more than the speed limit can avoid changing lanes themselves.

I can only think people who really get wound up about this speed to much time in the car. But then we only have one motorway in Wales and it only has two lanes.

“Genuinely slow vehicles” don’t spontaneously appear six feet from your front bumper. If you’re aware of your surroundings and thinking ahead it’s really, really not difficult to pull out again in the vast majority of cases.

In said scenario last week, I was happily trundling down the M6 and moved to the left lane with a truck a fair way in the distance. A few cars overook me, in case one, I indicated to overtake the truck only for no one allow me to move into the middle lane, even when the outside lane was empty. In case two, a car came up to my rear quarter, she was clearly going faster than me in order to catch up, she then sat on my rear quarter as we both approached the truck, thusly blocking any overtake manouvre on my part. I am unsure of their nationalities and this frustrates me.

“Genuinely slow vehicles” don’t spontaneously appear six feet from your front bumper. If you’re aware of your surroundings and thinking ahead it’s really, really not difficult to pull out again in the vast majority of cases.

But likewise if you are thinking ahead then you’ll often see that pulling back into lane 1 would mean you’d have to pull back out again (or slow down) within X seconds so it’s not worth doing.

Arguments arise over people’s preferred value of X.

I don’t see the problem. The middle lane is great, it gives you options both sides.

I went to the FOD today and saw pretty much all of the above, I was only on the M4 for 30 minutes 😆

Best was when I was overtaking two lorries heading west past the junction with Malpas road (2 lanes tuning into 3). Guy in a BMW blasts up the slip road and tries to dart in between the two lorries in lane 2 into lane 3 and tuck in behind me, as in 3 inches from my bumper. He had one hell of a shock when he spotted I had a towbar bike rack on the back!! The lorry he’d just cut up gave him the full horn/light treatment 😈

But then we only have one motorway in Wales and it only has two lanes.

A large majority of the M4 is 3 lanes to the east. Although most drivers don’t seem to realise 🙄

You appear not to have read what I wrote. That or you won’t pull back in when you have to pull out again over 30s later, or in other words for more than half a mile in the left hand lane? As I wrote, you’re part of the problem. You also appear to think you are the police.

I’ll certainly pull in for less than that time/distance, and I’m not a dipper, nor do I have any problem pulling back out.

When someone comes “flying up behind me” they are clearly on average, driving faster than me, so i just make sure i’m not in front of them when they get to where i am. If that means turning the handwheel a little bit to move my car 2m to the left, then so be it. Hardly a chore. I bet Wilburt also complains he gets “Tailgated” the whole time too……….

My watch words are “If my driving causes anyone else to have to brake or change there direction suddenly, i’ve failed”

A lot of people are stating that middle lane hoggers are selfish. Well maybe, but a hell of a lot less selfish than those of you who are speeding. If everyone kept to the speed limit, there would be a lot less accidents and traffic congestion. Also, the epitome of selfishness is driving fast and putting other peoples lives at danger.

Are we allowed to make progress?

Are we allowed to make progress?

Only if you don’t hold me up.

A lot of people are stating that middle lane hoggers are selfish. Well maybe, but a hell of a lot less selfish than those of you who are speeding. If everyone kept to the speed limit, there would be a lot less accidents and traffic congestion. Also, the epitome of selfishness is driving fast and putting other peoples lives at danger.

Bingo! The circle is complete.

a hell of a lot less selfish than those of you who are speeding. If everyone kept to the speed limit, there would be a lot less accidents and traffic congestion

Really? I’d much rather someone was speeding, but driving safely than not speeding and driving like a cock……..

Speed kills. Except it doesn’t. Inappropriate speed kills, and a small metal sign with a completely arbitrary number on it is not a suitable way to decide what speed you should be doing.

Some people seem to think that you should pull back in whenever there’s any kind of gap on the inside. This however is not a smart way to drive and help traffic flow.

Speed kills. Except it doesn’t. Inappropriate speed kills, and a small metal sign with a completely arbitrary number on it is not a suitable way to decide what speed you should be doing.

Without wishing to get into yet another semantic debate about the actual meaning of that slogan, and the idiocy of maxtorque’s response to it: Speeding does cause congestion. A greater spread of speeds means much more lane changing and speed changing, which causes congestion where the traffic would fit perfectly on the road if it were all doing the same speed.

That’s why managed motorways work (when they are observed).

Really wasn’t supposed to be a thread about speeding, either the defence or condemnation of. But here are LHS and maxtorque to turn it into one. 🙂

Inappropriate being an arsehole on the road is what kills. Some arseholes kill at speed and some kill while doddering. Let’s just leave it there.

Except when traffic volume is low enough that it doesn’t. Which is the majority of the time when I drive (I accept that other people drive a lot more when it’s congested than I do, but plenty of the time it isn’t). Provided of course that people aren’t middle lane hogging – that causes congestion well before it would otherwise happen, whatever speeds people are driving at.

Meanwhile on normal motorways vehicles are driving at different speeds even if everybody sticks to the speed limit.

Speed kills. Except it doesn’t.

In the same way that guns don’t kill, but they certainly make it a lot easier.

I did read what your post aracar, however it being bollox I ignored it but stole your maths, thanks.

Max Torques disagreement is as with any driving matter the ultimate conformation I’m correct, it’s like having a different opinion to Katie Hopkins, Jeremy Clarkson or Eric Pickles.

In reality not even people like you who have this self image as superhero driving experts pull into every gap and trying to describe which gaps we would and wouldn’t pull into is pointless. It also probably changes with a myriad of factors taken into account as we drive along doing our own little risk v consequences assessments and sometimes coming to slightly different conclusions.

So don’t worry about it, your probably going to get cancer tomorrow or loose your job or win the lottery or go on a nice holiday or whatever…IT JUST DOESNT MATTER!

@aracer, agree with what you’ve said.

So…just wondering…if a motorway is quiet (I don’t know what density of traffic we have to reach to induce congestion…) then middle laning isn’t really a problem? Until the road gets busy enough that enough middle laning causes congestion sooner than correct lane discipline. So drivers that are happy to middle lane during quiet periods just get into the habit of it and hope everybody else does the right thing when it gets busier. So, not middle laning should be encouraged as much as possible.

Feels to me that (as mentioned in OP) the ship has sailed. Or is there actually a way to get those who won’t move left to change their ways? I often wonder why the gantries aren’t used to remind folk to keep left when possible.

IT JUST DOESNT MATTER!

CAPS?

Yeah, it doesn’t matter.

Havent read all this thread or even much beyond the first post, well ok I didnt read that either as it was bloody long.. but

I reckon its middle lane hogging is on the increase because of the number of these idiot speed matchers. You sit in the inside lane and some **** will come along and then sit right alongside you as you approach a lorry and wont let you out unless you brake. People seem incapable of driving at a steady speed.

“won’t let you out”?? what?

I can’t think of a single time in all my years of driving where someone has “blocked” me in? If you are observing and managing your driving correctly, then you’ll not have an issues with other motorists.

The problem is that our roads have reached a capacity where there is ALWAYS another vehicle in sight in the inside lane. So, lazy, stupid, and frankly selfish drivers, mostly who are not paying any attention to their driving or environment, find it “easier” to just sit in the middle lane. 99% of the time, they haven’t even spotted the other car closing on them (even if it’s a ambulance / police car with sirens and blues!). Why should they move over? They are driving at a speed they think is suitable, and they are going to overtake that truck 300 yards in the distance eventually, so everyone can just follow them.

Like i say, if you are a good driver, you make sure you don’t get in anyone else’s way, ever. (regardless of if they are “speeding” or whatever). Anyone who says “yeah but” and rolls out some stupid lame excuse as to why they should cause another driver an inconvenience is, well, stupid and lame.

it’s simple. PAY ATTENTION OF WHATS GOING ON AROUND YOU.

If you’re not in the lh lane, think, should i be? No one is asking you to yo-yo in and out of it every 3 sec. Even if you can’t move left, and someone has caught you from behind, perhaps considering speeding up slightly (yes, even if you then break the speed limit, as the risk from doing 75mph in a 70 limit is WAY lower than the risk posed by two cars, doing 70, but 3 feet apart with both drivers getting road rage….)

You might say “why should i go out of my way to help another driver on their way?” Well, why should you? If you saw a young child or old lady waiting to cross the road, would you help them to do so?

Selfish drivers begat selfish drivers, in an endless loop.

(and the worst ones are the “Holier than thou” anti-speeders (who generally are extremely poor drivers, haven’t ever been trained properly to drive, and like to wind up other drivers to make a point….)

deadlydarcy

So drivers that are happy to middle lane during quiet periods just get into the habit of it

^^ This is why Advanced Driving “systems” exist. The things they encourage to do are not necessarily immediately obvious in the first instance, but by following these systems subconsciously builds a proper driving style. Making the driver think about how they are driving is actually the most important part of such a system.

We could have a similar thread on the “death of indicating”, another critical skill that allows traffic to flow, smoothly, rapidly and safely, and yet, in the current “war on speeding” has been almost entirely forgotten.

wilburt

Max Torques disagreement is as with any driving matter the ultimate conformation I’m correct

Cripes you must find driving really difficult, what with your massive head making even getting the car tricky……. 😉

(^^^ joke btw)

What are you driving qualifications then Wilburt?

if you are a good driver, you make sure you don’t get in anyone else’s way, ever.

Must be a fun challenge at junctions and roundabouts. Do you drive on the pavement to avoid getting in the way?

perhaps considering speeding up slightly (yes, even if you then break the speed limit

If the car behind me objects to me overtaking at the speed limit (or within a margin that I deem suitable) then they are welcome to use the outside lane and overtake me. Expecting me to break the law because you want to is ridiculous and not my idea of a “good driver”.

Do you do that in any other walks of life?

“Excuse me love, would you mind just stealing those bananas and moving on please? I’m trying to shoplift here.” 😀

What are you driving qualifications then Wilburt?

Not having qualifications doesn’t mean you’re a worse driver, it means that you haven’t sat any tests 🙂

I agree with your entire post maxtorque, but I don’t therefore conclude that I can drive as fast as I fancy.

A regular predictable speed for everyone makes traffic flow far better, and everyone safer. That includes people going too slow as well as too fast.

With regards getting out of people’s way – then I will if they are being reasonable and it isn’t inconveniencing me I will get out of their way, even if they are speeding. However if I am passing two cars close together and they fly up behind me at 100mph, tailgate, and flash their lights to try and force me out of their way then they can bite me, frankly. Wait for the road to clear before speeding, like everyone else.