Home Forums Chat Forum F1 2016 (Bound to contain spoilers!)

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  • F1 2016 (Bound to contain spoilers!)
  • Junkyard
    Free Member

    TJ?

    Can you give an example where we would be discussing hamilton and Alonso and the difference in results is so wide apart in cycling due to equipment?

    You know what i said was true.

    scotroutes
    Full Member

    Examples?

    Does the “best” rider win the TdF?

    I’d argue it’s a team effort, from the bikes, the fitness trainers, the coaches and, of course, the rest of the riding team.

    Was Obree the “best” rider when he was setting world records? Was Boardman?
    Both used engineering and design to help them go faster.

    pondo
    Full Member

    A sport so poor we cannot even say who is the best driver- surely that is the point

    I don’t think there’s many sports where there is no dispute about who the greatest is, is there?

    Great shout, ScotR – got no affection for Schumi but his second in a crippled Benetton in Spain ’94 and his win there in the wet in ’96 in a car that had no right to be first across the line… Out of the very top drawer.

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    Were boardman and Obree as far apart as Hamilton and Alonso due to engineering?
    WHilst there is a modicum of truth in your point “marginal gains” in cycling the problem with F1 is , largely, engineering is all that really matters. Mercedes will win whomever is the pilot as their car is the fastest. The car will win.

    That is not true of a “team” sport like cycling . Brad would not have won it on a chopper bike nor without Froome but his bike did not win it for him as it will for Mercedes this year

    I would be surprised if you actually disagree with what I am saying and yes I can see your point

    F1 has always been about innovation but it was also about racing

    Of late it has very very little of the later. After the very first qualifier we can say who will win the title – certainly which team if not quite which driver.

    hora
    Free Member

    Schu’s wins back then? Right. Let’s not go into the traction control software ‘we didn’t use it, honest but it was too expensive to remove’. The team manager later banned from F1, the numerous black flags, deliberately colliding with DH oh and other rumours around the car.

    Do you honestly think a F1 car of any calibre could be stuck in one gear yet still be mysteriously so good, or the driver can magically get a similar car to others stuck in one gear in that situation OK like that? The car wasn’t legal. I wasn’t convinced at the time that he was THAT good. He’s very good yes but utterly ruthless, win at with all means.

    Damon was robbed of at least another title, maybe three crowns total.

    onehundredthidiot
    Full Member

    This is awful. Murray Walker chuntering on, badly.

    Thumb hovering on the power switch.

    the-muffin-man
    Full Member

    I’ve somewhat warmed to Hamilton but won’t be fully convinced if he doesn’t jump ship to a less competitive team and make things happen.

    Everyone was staggered when he went to Mercedes, they all thought he was a bit mad to leave McLaren.

    pondo
    Full Member

    WHilst there is a modicum of truth in your point “marginal gains” in cycling the problem with F1 is , largely, engineering is all that really matters. Mercedes will win whomever is the pilot as their car is the fastest. The car will win.

    The car will only win if the driver is good enough, the reverse is true.

    I would be surprised if you actually disagree with what I am saying and yes I can see your point

    Fantastic to have you both disagree and agree in such a short amount of text.

    Of late it has very very little of the later. After the very first qualifier we can say who will win the title – certainly which team if not quite which driver.

    Absolutely not of late – that’s been the case for the thirty-odd years I’ve been following the sport. People talk as though it’s unusual for a team to dominate, F1 kicked off in 1950 and whilst the dominant team hasn’t always won, it’s been the case for the majority of years.

    pondo
    Full Member

    Schu’s wins back then? Right. Let’s not go into the traction control software ‘we didn’t use it, honest but it was too expensive to remove’. The team manager later banned from F1, the numerous black flags, deliberately colliding with DH oh and other rumours around the car.

    Do you honestly think a F1 car of any calibre could be stuck in one gear yet still be mysteriously so good, or the driver can magically get a similar car to others stuck in one gear in that situation OK like that? The car wasn’t legal. I wasn’t convinced at the time that he was THAT good. He’s very good yes but utterly ruthless, win at with all means.
    Did you watch the race? Traction control tech back then was clearly audible, and from the on-car shots he was clearly stuck in a high gear and it was clearly not traction controlling itself. Maybe they invented some stealth TC that couldn’t be heard, never seen anything that suggested that it had been – all I read about was that the software was still technically there but couldn’t be used. Find me one bit of evidence that suggests Spain 94 wasn’t legit.

    And Spain 96? Thoughts? TC again?

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    The car will only win if the driver is good enough

    ISH
    To win the title this year you need to drive for mercedes

    Its clearly more about the car than the driver.
    If it was not we would not be debating who the best driver was.

    Fantastic to have you both disagree and agree in such a short amount of text.

    Utter comprehension fail- could you at least make your childish digs funny?

    the-muffin-man
    Full Member

    That Haas is awesome.

    Williams, Sauber and Force India should stop complaining about them, those teams have had years and years to perfect their F1 craft. Even with Ferrari bits Haas are very much new boys.

    eddiebaby
    Free Member

    That welsh **** is ruining the coverage for me and Susie doesn’t seem to contribute much, but otherwise a great race.

    sharkbait
    Free Member

    That welsh **** is ruining the coverage for me

    Steve Jones REALLY needs to stop talking – his ‘off the cuff’ remarks are just cringeworthy.
    DC and Lee McKenzie are the only decent ones in there right now and the latter should be given a much bigger role.
    I’m also struggling to see why you’d employ Karun Chandhok as ‘technical analyst’ when you’ve got Mark Webber and DC.
    [Chandhok] did part of a season in 2010 and then one race in 2011:
    ‘Chandhok’s one-off appearance was not successful: he ended the race last, two laps behind team mate Heikki Kovalainen after several spins.’
    Yeah, great choice.

    Klunk
    Free Member

    they had a chap (i can remember who) on radio 5 extra talking during practise 2 about a conversation he had with an engineer/s from mercedes. the gist was they (merc) think the ferrari engine is suspect and can’t run at full tilt for very long, seems they may have a point.

    scotroutes
    Full Member

    I get that you think there is an unhealthy influence from the amount of science and engineering in F1 – and I don’t think it can now be “un-invented”. I still think that only the very top drivers are capable of delivering.

    However, your point that there is something unusual in F1 that makes it difficult to determine who is “best” just doesn’t stand scrutiny – it applies to countless other sports. Some are, again, influenced by technology be that the material used for swimming costumes, the design of bob-sleighs, bows whatever. Team backup in things like nutrition, training methods, drugs (legal and illegal) also influences performance.

    And then there’s the whole pro-sport TdF thing. Could Froome have “won” without the team assembled around him? Could another rider in that team have “won”? How can you possibly determine who is the best rider each year? TdF history is littered with almost-winners who might have made the high spot if they’d had a better team around them. Truth is, the whole concept of naming a winner for that type of racing is complete nonsense.

    coogan
    Free Member

    Apart from it being unbearable dull these days, the biggest issue I have is about 90% of F1 chat in the media usually revolves around what happening OFF the track. The politics, the bickering, the arsed up new ‘rules’.

    For me, we want Jim Clark back 🙂 1967 Italian GP, leading for 12 laps, puncture, gets lapped by everyone. Then with 48 laps remaining, unlaps himself, then overtakes everyone to take the lead, only for a faulty fuel pump meaning he finishes 3rd. Bosh. That’s what I want to see!

    slackalice
    Free Member

    Ahhh! the 60′ and 70’s eh?! Like when real motoring was all about keeping a stock of parts, like propshaft UJ’s, half shafts, a full ignition set, in the boot of the car along with tools and a bottle jack, because it wasn’t real motoring until you had to change something at the side of the road! 😉

    As for best driver, JY speaks sanely, motorsport at every level has long been all about the biggest chequebook. In this regard, F1 demands the latest and most expensive design and technology, which makes it a team effort, which kinda makes comparing F1 drivers over the years pretty pointless. Does it matter? They were / are all pretty awesome drivers.

    Having said that, IMO, a fast car won’t necessarily win without a good driver, who would also be able to be competitive in a not-so-quick car. In the realms of F1, if all these guys drove the same car, they would be within 10th’s if not 100th’s of a second of each other.

    thepurist
    Full Member

    F1 is a series where teams design and build their own cars,with a championship for the drivers too. Always has been as much about the machinery as the man, but a big part of being a top level driver is having the ability to communicate to your engineers precisely what the car is doing, and to be able to differentiate between changes in components. But the engineers then need to be able to design bits to improve the car and fit with the drivers feedback. So a good partnership between driver and engineer makes the car better, and if you can understand that relationship then you can get why f1 racing is the way it is.

    richmars
    Full Member

    Which is why most of the time, one team dominates. If you want close racing watch a one make series.

    ScottChegg
    Free Member

    where teams design and build their own cars

    Haas don’t.

    richmars
    Full Member

    Haas don’t.

    Depends on your definition.
    They have designers who ‘designed’ the car. Ok, many parts have been supplied by another team, who no doubt also gave advise, but the car was designed by Haas engineers.

    Daffy
    Full Member

    Romain Grosjean is the star of the paddock at the moment – Driving superbly in every area. What a marked change from just a few years ago. I remember Webber describing him as “First Lap Nutcase”

    Is it just me, or is Rosberg just so unbearably dull? Vettel is always joking around as is DR, Hamilton is up and down and often petulant, but still worth watching, but Nico…I really want to like him, but….

    dooosuk
    Free Member

    Is it just me, or is Rosberg just so unbearably dull?

    Not just you. I watched his post race interviews yesterday and just though he came across as trying too hard.

    STATO
    Free Member

    coogan – Member

    For me, we want Jim Clark back 1967 Italian GP, leading for 12 laps, puncture, gets lapped by everyone. Then with 48 laps remaining, unlaps himself, then overtakes everyone to take the lead, only for a faulty fuel pump meaning he finishes 3rd. Bosh. That’s what I want to see!

    So you want a series with one very dominant car that only fails to win due to mechanical failure? I thought we wanted racing, you’ve just described Lewis in his Mercedes!

    shermer75
    Free Member

    What an amazing drive from Pascal Wehrlein! How did he manage that?!?

    the-muffin-man
    Full Member

    So – how do we feel about aggregate qualifying!? They really, really seem to want to fix something that wasn’t broken…

    http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/10229727/sebastian-vettel-hits-out-at-aggregate-qualifying-proposal

    Daffy
    Full Member

    shermer75 – Member
    What an amazing drive from Pascal Wehrlein! How did he manage that?!?

    His fastest lap was only 4/10ths slower than Kimi.

    The real question is how did Marcus Ericsson end up ahead of him when his fastest lap was almost 2.5s slower the PW and a full second slower than ANY of the finishers?

    binners
    Full Member

    So – how do we feel about aggregate qualifying!? They really, really seem to want to fix something that wasn’t broken…

    Its the continuation of an experiment that they’ve been carrying out for at least the last ten years.

    They’re trying to find if there’s a limit to how spirit-crushingly tedious they can make a ‘sport’ before middle aged blokes will actually turn it off and go and do something less soul-destroyingly dull instead

    So far the conclusion is that, as long as they put the odd VROOM VROOM sound of a revving engine, then there’s definitely no limit at all. Despite it defying all previous evidence regarding human attention spans.

    Next season’s format will involve an extended period before the race where you can watch the paint drying on the cars after they’ve sprayed them. Whoever dries slowest gets pole.

    chrismac
    Full Member

    No wonder Button found an excuse to park the car. Out qualified, out driven and out raced by a substitute who hadnt got any closer to the car than I have until a few days ago. It must be really embarrassing for Button.

    ScottChegg
    Free Member

    It would have been if he hadn’t got past him at the start and was comfortably leading his (admittedly very good) new team mate before his engine went pop.

    but the car was designed by Haas engineers.

    And built by Dallara.

    pondo
    Full Member

    Utter comprehension fail- could you at least make your childish digs funny?

    Can’t be bothered – if you don’t know the sport and don’t like it, why are you reading the thread? Not disputing your right to, but unless you actually enjoy a spot of Sunday night trolling, why bother?

    shermer75
    Free Member

    The real question is how did Marcus Ericsson end up ahead of him when his fastest lap was almost 2.5s slower the PW and a full second slower than ANY of the finishers?

    This is a really good point. How does that even make sense? Where did you get that info- it’s be good to have a peruse! 🙂

    demonracer
    Full Member

    No wonder Button found an excuse to park the car. Out qualified, out driven and out raced by a substitute who hadnt got any closer to the car than I have until a few days ago. It must be really embarrassing for Button.

    Did this actually happen though? Admittedly Button was out qualified but In the race I watched Button retired on lap 7 while in 9th place ahead of Vandoorne. It’s a shame really as it would have been interesting to see who came out on top, Vandoorne did a great job in his first GP.

    STATO
    Free Member

    It’s a shame really as it would have been interesting to see who came out on top, Vandoorne did a great job in his first GP.

    Competent rookies with nothing to lose always do well in their first few races, as everyone else tends to get out the way fearing they may get taken out by an over ambitious lunge for a pass. Certainly seemed to be the case for a few of his overtakes, trying it on in places no-one else does as the door would be firmly be shut in the face of anyone who had something to lose. It obviously still takes skill, both to do it and to know you can try when other cant, but its difficult to say anything more than that IMO.

    Daffy
    Full Member

    This is a really good point. How does that even make sense? Where did you get that info- it’s be good to have a peruse!

    Full Race Results

    Moe
    Full Member

    binners, not hugely different than any other sport with money as a disproportional focus?

    ScottChegg
    Free Member

    Find me one bit of evidence that suggests Spain 94 wasn’t legit.

    The illegal ride height? The illegal fuel rig were thet pulled the filters out to get a better flow? (And memorably ignited Vestappen Snr.)

    Vandoorne did an excellent job, deinfinately. To say that Button came out looking crap next to him is rubbish.

    pondo
    Full Member

    In Spain?

    dooosuk
    Free Member

    This is a really good point. How does that even make sense?

    Ericsson 2 stopped and was saving fuel in his final stint.

    Wehrlein 3 stopped.

    Sources:
    http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2016/04/03/2016-bahrain-grand-prix-tyre-strategies-and-pit-stops/%5B/url%5D
    http://planetf1.com/news/sun-renault-sauber-manor-force-india/%5B/url%5D

    ScottChegg
    Free Member

    In Spain?

    Yep.

    The whole of the 1994 season was a catalogue of cheats and fiddles and poor sportsmanship by Benneton

    And the championship was won by the team proved to have been cheating, after a deliberate collision by their driver on Damon Hill.

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