amazing talent in a so-so car.

I like Max. I think he is a brilliant young talent. The Red Bull is not a so so car though , its the 2nd best car on the grid

You forgot Kimi in that list above. In the “Talented Journeymen who can win races in the right circumstances” section of course.
Kimi and Alonso will be gone by the end of next season, probably leaving only 3 current/former world champions on the grid… one a piece for the top 3 teams? or 2 in one team?

I can’t see Lewis in a Merc in 2018, unless he totally dominates Rosberg, with Vettel or a redbull between them in the driver’s title so the reigning world champion is the unofficial #2 driver. So only choices are (1) in scarlet, (2) deposing ricciardo to be #1 with Max, or (3) do an Alonso and go back to McLaren never to win again. Or take up that music career.

Anyway – next season is looking good!…

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2016/11/29/2017-abu-dhabi-tyre-test-in-pictures/

LH Antics in race – its a race not a time trial, backing up strategy perfectly in rules, if he hadn’t done that questions should be asked.

NR – not a worthy champion – rubbish of course he is, he got the points, mechanicals are part of it.

Although – not going to park ferme, extra lap, and other infringements
If Merc insist on applying ‘rules’ to Lewis following this, maybe he should insist on FIA applying ‘rules’ to NR. minimum 10 second penalty, LH champion.

You forgot Kimi in that list above. In the “Talented Journeymen who can win races in the right circumstances” section of course.

I did! 🙂

Kimi is an interesting one. Ridiculously talented, when he was properly focussed he was an extraordinary racer. 2005 when he drove for Mclaren he would have easily won the world title given a more reliable car. At Suzuka he drove like he was on fire!

He did get a world title of course in 2007 but he wasn’t on the same form and probably never was again for rest of his career

I’m sure it’s been said before but: LH back to McLaren for 2018, just in time for Honda to have sorted the power unit and the whole package to be competitive again. To match the return to form, the livery gets updated to red and white with more than an obvious nod to the old Marlboro design (Honda’s brand colours are red and white aren’t they? shouldn’t be too hard to achieve without actually having Marlboro as the sponsor).
That would be Lewis’s “Senna’s my hero” wet dream wouldn’t it? Especially if he got to fight it out for the title with a resurgent Ferrari, Williams or (now named) Renault…..taking it a bit far?

Why on earth would LH want to swap teams? Ferrari are a mess and unlikely to challenge Mercedes for the next few years. Red Bull don’t need him and probably wouldn’t pay the salary he expects, and he would have a teammate who would be very fast and not intimidated by him. McHonda would be a risk. They should improve next year, but probably fighting with Ferrari for 3rd best team. If they look likely to be competitive in 2018, Alonso will probably want to stay. Any driver on the grid would swap what they have now for a Mercedes seat, so it makes no sense for Hamilton to want to leave.

Lewis doesn’t need a bollocking, his radio calls showed someone despondent and desperate. He needs a cuddle from Merc not a telling off.

I think it’ll be left as it is. Punishment now will only help the other teams.

Anyway, Lulu has turned up for testing, so maybe all is forgiven?

Considering he (Max V) drove from the back of the grid to 4th shows amazing talent in a so-so car.

It also shows a terrific lack of judgement to bin it in the first place. And then blame the other guy, as usual.

Spoilt teenager who thinks he’s playing GT5

Max will either kill himself, or be the new Massa. Reckless for a couple of seasons, then grow up after 2 seasons in a big car.

Agree it makes no sense for Lewis to leave, but I can see relations being too strained at Merc by mid season. Especially if the reigning world champion is #1 driver by Silverstone, and the 3x world champion is #2 driver. Sure Toto says they are allowed to race, but the team comes first, even when the team has already won the constructors, and guaranteed both #1 and #2 in the drivers championship? and there’s discussions about penalising for ignoring instructions?

Lewis’ only hope is that he is in the lead, and Vettel, Max or Ricciardo are a proper threat, and Rosberg a clear 4th and they need to use the reigning world champion to protect the 3x world champion in the constructor’s fight. Else Nico is the German team’s German baby.

Toto says they are allowed to race

I think the problem was that Hamilton wasn’t racing, he was driving slowly to try to cause problems for Rosberg. That put the Merc victory in jeopardy. Bit of a storm in a teacup, I think Merc and Hamilton both want to just move on and start thinking about next year. Hamilton comes across as a bit childish sometimes, but I don’t think he’s silly enough to leave Mercedes over a minor spat like this.

That put the Merc victory in jeopardy

I don’t think this was ever the case. LH would have bolted when SV was busy keeping NR’s mirrors full.

What I don’t understand about Hamilton’s backing up strategy is why he didn’t do it earlier? By the end Rosberg could have given the place to Vettel and let him attack Hamilton straight away, there was no need for Rosberg to defend 2nd place.

I don’t think this was ever the case.

Mercedes think otherwise. They pay Hamilton’s salary.

What I don’t understand about Hamilton’s backing up strategy is why he didn’t do it earlier?

The team where already wise to that – and they would have pitted Rosberg first giving him the undercut. After the pitstops there was nothing they could do.

That Mercedes say that they didn’t think Lewis would employ this tactic is a load of cobblers. F1 teams today model every scenario!

LH would have bolted when SV was busy keeping NR’s mirrors full.

he was bolting every lap, closing the gaps significantly in the areas you can’t really overtake, and almost instantly opening the gap to over a second in the areas susceptible to overtaking and DRS. It was very impressive driving, he had a huge potential speed advantage over Rosberg and if he needed to use it to fend off Vettel he could have switched it on instantly as required, I’m sure.

HOWEVER, it was all too late as no other thrid party driver in their right mind would try to get involved in the title tussle that late in the race. The backing up needed to happen much much earlier in the race, and it could have worked, but was very risky at the time and really needed Verstappen not to have spun at the start.

I think the problem was that Hamilton wasn’t racing, he was driving slowly to try to cause problems

that is racing IMO. It’s used in MTB racing and cross racing as a tactic if say you’re slower on the tech sections but faster in the non tech sections as a means of not getting dropped/pulling away as needed. You use the tools available to you at that moment in time. It’s used in F1 all the time – most races in one way or the other – you just don’t see it much as it’s happening off camera. For Lewis, he had no other option… Either driver could have walked away with the championship in that race, it was all Lewis had control over – everything else relied on other people. Any driver would have done it, as most have really alluded to but not expressly said. The only folk complaining about it were Merc management and Rosberg. At that part of the race, it seemed Merc had decided they wanted Rosberg to win the WDC.

They pay Hamilton’s salary.

Have you seen LH’s salary? I think Toto and co. work for him.

Anyway, 2017 rule changes mean things could be all over the place. Williams could be the new Brawn, and Merc could be midfield runners. He’ll scamper off then.

Time will tell.

At that part of the race, it seemed Merc had decided they wanted Rosberg to win the WDC

No, their view was that they wanted a Merc to win the race. Hamilton was risking that. They didn’t care which driver wins the championship, their focus was on a Merc winning the race. Hamilton knew that at the start, that’s why he waited until after the pitstop to start sandbagging.

Hamilton was risking that.

Did you watch the race!?

He had it completely under control.

their focus was on a Merc winning the race

That’s what they told LH yes. BUT….

They had P1 and P2 in the race at the stages they asked LH to speed up. vettel in P3 was fast, certainly against Verstappen on tired tyres but getting slower every lap to the point it was obvious he wasn’t trying seriously to pass NR. he wasn’t even trying most laps. He would have to get involved in the title fight. They had the raw data that showed LH was massively faster in certain, specific and planned areas of the track.

They weren’t worried about the race win.

It doesn’t matter whether LH thought sandbagging was legitimate or indeed if it was perfectly legal. We all get given instructions from time to time by our boss which we think are wrong. He was given a clear instruction and he ignored it, publically. Unmanageable employees are no good, Merc have the best car and pretty anyone decent could replace LH and they’d still be winning.

I’m quite enjoying the LH for 2018 speculation, but none of it makes any sense. Here’s why:

Red Bull – Unless Max Verstappen ups sticks to Ferrari, he’ll be there for some time. Lewis (at thirty three) will be ill advised to go toe to toe. MV is probably the most outstanding new driver out there, he’s not yet twenty.

McLaren – Under new management, with entrenched corporate cultural problems that have stymied attempts to climb back up the grid, let alone challenge for championships. McLaren should have been strong at chassis circuits this year, but have been lacklustre. Likewise, McLaren and Honda seem to have problems with communicating effectively. Fixing this will take more than one season, I wouldn’t be surprised if Honda threw in the towel before 2019.

Ferrari – See above, but without the Honda issues. Perennial underachievers until the internal politics are resolved.

I dont understand why if Vettels comments are true they are not disciplining their driver for driving at the maximum. Saying you wont overtake the car in front because you cant overtake the one in front of that is a bit daft to put it politely.

Toto works for Lewis.

Yes Merc could hire someone else.

He’s not a washed up star, he’s top PR, upfront, top of his game and the rest of the field is either untested, average of fading talent.

Max isn’t ready nor will I think he will be. I remember Coulthard showing erratic promise. He never matured.

Controversial but although Max has great talent, part of the back is he currently has nothing to save and no pressure. Let’s wait and see when he has pressure to build points in a couple of years. Talent can crack. There was almost a point where Lewis had great misfiring talent. Remember all those comings together with Massa etc?

I’m not sure why so many people are missing this – I’m sure Merc management weren’t under any illusions that LH didn’t have lots of extra pace if he’d needed it, which does put a slightly different perspective on the radio messages they were giving him (and the response from LH suggests that he knew that they knew).

The only folk complaining about it were Merc management and Rosberg. At that part of the race, it seemed Merc had decided they wanted Rosberg to win the WDC.

To be fair to NR, he only made a silly suggestion once, and didn’t complain at all after the race.

I don’t see what all the fuss is about Hamilton backing up Rosberg, any driver in his position would have done the same and if they said otherwise they’d be lying ( like Nikki Lauda when Coulthard asked him the question after the race!)

Going back twenty years or so the championship would have been decided by Rosberg taking Hamilton out at the first corner in that race so a bit of sandbagging is tame in comparison 😉

BITD winning a race at the slowest possible speed was beneficial as it put less stress on the cars an tyres so you ran less risk of breaking down! He was just making sure he didn’t break it before it became a museum piece 😀

Nicos suggestion could of been a clever tongue in cheek bit of psychological play especially if Merc had relayed it to Hamilton. Hamilton bites and scampers off nico can relax Hamilton looses concentration makes a mistake nico gets past. Risk would be crashing out but Lewis still finishing. I say well played and entertainment aplenty from both sides of the garage.

like Nikki Lauda when Coulthard asked him the question after the race!

Yes, that was bizarre.

I have liked Kimi’s comments that he doesn’t understand people saying Nico isn’t a deserving champion saying words to the effect of “If you score more points, you deserve the title”. Sounds fair.

Whatever the arguments for or against either driver ……

This is how you do it!

So much better TV and racing.

I’m not sure why so many people are missing this – I’m sure Merc management weren’t under any illusions that LH didn’t have lots of extra pace if he’d needed it, which does put a slightly different perspective on the radio messages they were giving him (and the response from LH suggests that he knew that they knew).

This is what I’ve been saying. A superb bit of driving from LH, IMO.

A superb bit of driving from LH, IMO.

Not really as it didn’t work, worth a punt yes, but superb hardly.

Good point made above about the undercut in response to my previous post.

What did Lauda ask DC?

Merc have the best car and pretty anyone decent could replace LH and they’d still be winning.

Is there any subject you can’t talk crap about?

Merc have the best car and pretty anyone decent could replace LH and they’d still be winning.

Depends if that someone is good enough to generate enough data for Nico “I need more data” Rosberg.

If Lewis went to say Ferrari or Red Bull, and Nico’s new team mate was someone up and coming who’s a clear #2 driver, then Nico would be in a fight with a lesser car for the championship.

Merc have the best car and pretty anyone decent could replace LH and they’d still be winning.

Same could be said for Webber against Vettel – he was a very good driver but could never consistently beat Vettel. And also DC against Mika at McLaren, and going back further Berger against Senna.

The best are the best for a reason.

(You can’t include Schumachers team-mates as they were hobbled!).

Muffin I don’t disagree, F1 is in my view engineering lead – the car is 80-90%. In that eespect it’s very much like sailing where organisers understand to get close racing you have to put everyone in the same boat as otherwise it’s generally an easy win for someone based on superior design.

Is there any subject you can’t talk crap about?

IMO more than half the drivers in the Championship would have finished first or second had they been in the Mercedes, Button included and he was 15th. Hamilton is a better driver than Rosberg but would nowhere in 2013-16 seasons in any other car. In my view in a non competitive car (ie anything else) Hamilton would lose the plot completely.

https://www.formula1.com/en/championship/results/2016-driver-standings.html

EDiT: Pondo so looking down that list why don’t you tell me which of those drivers put in a Mercedes Hamilton would have beaten to take 1st or 2nd in the Championship had be had his choice of Ferrari, Red Bull, Toro Rosso, Williams, McLaren … in fact LH can have any car he wants other than the Merc. Like the other drivers he would have ben 100+ points back even if he could have held it together mentally in my view there is not a snowballs chance in hell Hamilton would have beaten Rosberg in the Merc in any other car.

Oh jambers – F1 is a comeptition for teams and drivers – it’s a constructor’s prototype formula, where teams are required to design and build their own car to compete (though Haas are stretching that a bit). That means that the combination of driver and car is what is important, always has been.

How many WDCs have won in the last 10 or 20 years without being in the best car? Alonso in the Benetton and maybe Vettel’s first win, but most years it’s the best of the 2 drivers who happens to be in the best car.

But they don’t ‘happen to be’ in the best car – they are talented and determined drivers who work their way into a team where they feel they can challenge for the title. That’s why Schumi went to Ferrari, that’s why Vettel went to Ferrari, why Lewis went to Merc, why Alonso went to McLaren (twice), why Button played contract roulette at the start of his career.

It’s like saying anyone could earn millions if they worked as a fund manager for Goldman Sachs.

While this is a good point…

But they don’t ‘happen to be’ in the best car – they are talented and determined drivers who work their way into a team where they feel they can challenge for the title.

…I reckon this is still true:

IMO more than half the drivers in the Championship would have finished first or second had they been in the Mercedes, Button included and he was 15th.

Maybe not more than half field exactly but the point stands I reckon.

Is there any subject you can’t talk crap about?

IMO more than half the drivers in the Championship would have finished first or second had they been in the Mercedes, Button included and he was 15th. [/quote]

That’s a bit different to saying –

Merc have the best car and pretty anyone decent could replace LH and they’d still be winning.

LH didn’t win, in case it escaped your notice – if he didn’t, who do you think WOULD have won in a Merc alongside Nico? Effectively saying “any driver would do better in a better car” is a fair shout, but it doesn’t carry a lot of weight.

Hamilton is a better driver than Rosberg but would nowhere in 2013-16 seasons in any other car. In my view in a non competitive car (ie anything else) Hamilton would lose the plot completely.

Saying LH would be “nowhere” in any other car is infantile nonsense without any foundation and in common with this…

https://www.formula1.com/en/championship/results/2016-driver-standings.html
EDiT: Pondo so looking down that list why don’t you tell me which of those drivers put in a Mercedes Hamilton would have beaten to take 1st or 2nd in the Championship had be had his choice of Ferrari, Red Bull, Toro Rosso, Williams, McLaren … in fact LH can have any car he wants other than the Merc. Like the other drivers he would have ben 100+ points back even if he could have held it together mentally in my view there is not a snowballs chance in hell Hamilton would have beaten Rosberg in the Merc in any other car.

… Is just gibberish and bears no relation to what we were discussing.