EU Referendum – are you in or out?

Businesses dictating ransom terms to the nation? Those business should be boycotted or worst case target their top executives. That will learn them for trying to stick their head out …

Any business that requires subsidies to be an ongoing concern is just not a business but merely sucking up public funds for their own salary. A bit like bail out without having to pay back and only to secure the top management salary.

DrJ – Member
Somebody, please, I beg you, write a blocker for iOS.

You could always block yourself from not having to read STW forum … simple and you call yourself DrJ … (What PhD do you have to even insist on the title Dr?)

Junkyard – lazarus

we’re all guessing

To some degree this is true but the status quo will remain and nothing will change as we are so big they cannot lose us is clearly amongst the least likely outcomes. Its practically a fairy tale. [/quote]

You are always contradicting yourself? Are you confused or deliberately trying to confuse?

If you are unsure of the outcome then why keep banging on the biases?

What makes you so sure you are right?

What is your logic apart from increasing the population and trying to destroy the borders?

What is your true intention?

😯

I could but I enjoy most of the contributions, even those I disagree with. It is only spoiled by the garbage spouted by a couple of nitwits.

Some people have certain standards to maintain.

DrJ – Member
I could but I enjoy most of the contributions, even those I disagree with. It is only spoiled by the garbage spouted by a couple of nitwits.

You have another choice. Do not read or participate in the thread.

Nobody force you at gun point to read them nor to contribute.

How hard can that be?

What have you learned from your PhD during those years that could disable your ability to present your critical thoughts? 🙄

slowoldman – Member
Some people have certain standards to maintain.

Some don’t or you don’t?
Seriously how old are you?
If you cannot grasp this basic then you are amongst us. <= Read this sentence carefully and think hard using your life experience then decide if what I said make sense to you in a non-judgmental way.

slowoldman Does Not mean a wise old man.

My grandpa was an oldman but we (everyone in the family with respect) called him stubborn old fool, my grandma called him a pervert and his children called him communist.

edit: slowoldman – so far you have been impartial and if I can remember only showed your true self twice but I think you are getting caught up with some biases on this forum …

You both deny that anything will change with regard to the cost of EU businesses dealing with the UK following brexit.

I don’t. You seem to have forgotten previous posts. I haven’t a clue. I have just said that companies will want to continue to trade with the UK. If their govts (in the form of the EU) make it difficult to do so, it will affect their growth. Companies couldn’t give a toss about EU membership, they just want profit.

The question you haven’t answered is why the EU would continue to grant the UK the benefits of membership following our departure.

I don’t know if they will, and neither do you. The EU does have bilateral agreements, and not just within europe either. Will they grant the Uk one? Nobody knows.
I can’t deny that the UK would be hurt more than any other single EU member state if they don’t, but everyone will be negatively affected.

On another note, I don’t get why some delicate people take it so personally and get all emotional. It’s a discussion, people are expessing opinions. If they don’t like the fact that some have views that don’t align with their own, I would respectfully suggest that they avoid contentious threads, or even better avoid forums altogether. Not every thread can be a STW circle jerk.

On another note, I don’t get why some delicate people take it so personally and get all emotional. It’s a discussion, people are expessing opinions.

No ones getting emotional, apart from maybe one person who everyone ignores anyway. Funny that you suggest people don’t take part when your entire position seems to be ‘I don’t know and neither do you, so anything anyone says is irrelevant’.

I can’t deny that the UK would be hurt more than any other single EU member state if they don’t, but everyone will be negatively affected.

?

On another note, I don’t get why some delicate people take it so personally and get all emotional. It’s a discussion, people are expessing opinions. If they don’t like the fact that some have views that don’t align with their own, I would respectfully suggest that they avoid contentious threads, or even better avoid forums altogether. Not every thread can be a STW circle jerk.

I dont understand why diplomatic statements like that are not well received TBH if that does not calm the little wall flowers down and reduce their hysteria then what will?

Has anyone taken it personally on this thread?

In!

junkyard – are you telling me that the EU members will act as one to penalize our trade? My experience of EU CEN committees (and Euro trade bodies) has constantly been that individual countries representatives act for themselves (commercial interests) and their country second and the greater EU good after who decides on the type of biscuits. What I am saying is though your point is valid regarding loss of trade due to us leaving EU only with some memberstates. However never underestimate the ability of certain countries or commercial entities (as EU speak calls companies) to say one thing while(doing another) ensuring that sales will not drop.
A good example of this is Germany and some of it’s bigger companies like Siemens or EoN who would suffer. Perhaps take BMW, a double figure portion of their profits are made in the UK alone. I suspect they’ll be having a word with Mrs Merkel if she blocks our insignificant to them exports, thus jeopardizing their massive exports to the UK. Many companies in the UK now are part of Europe wide groups, the commercial ramifications would be very difficulty’s.
So my point is the rest of the EU is highly likely not to act together on exports from the UK. It will be tough though if we did not have the right politicians to make the point should the vote go the out way. At the moment we seem not to have a political leader who could lead the country out of a soggy paper bag. Well Sturgeon could be she is a EU supporter without question.
My view is that the UK will be allowed to remain in the EU free trade zone, thus having to conform to all the directives and EU legislation while be forced to pay tuppence apeny less than we paid as members. Like Norway but worse but with further added cash payments.

Edit spelling again (Burnage High School for the thick)

It takes more than 10 mins to knock up a free trade agreement, what happens before they do?

This is another reason why we won’t leave regardless of the vote.

Clearly after a ‘leave’ vote we need to renegotiate a ton of treaties before we can practically leave.

How long is it going to take to do that? 5, 10, 20 years? We could enter a perpetual state of ‘leaving soon’ until a future govt had another referendum to get a ‘stay in’ result.

I thought the same about Scottish independence. Its not clear why there would ever be agreement on the things that needed be agreed.

Leaving a union isn’t the same as never having been in it.

clearly it will take time but the govt wont be able to delay or they will be voted out at the election for one that will do it and leave- given folk just voted to leave they will expect to leave and electrorally hammer anyone who fails to deliver. The govt will look beyond weak.

I see no evidence to suggest a vote to leave means we wont ever leave. Its more unlikely than they will let us have free trade as they need us. Its so unlikely I am not going to discuss it

IMHO about 2 years to leave though I am sure we could do it in three months if we really wanted to. Its not like anyone could stop us.

the govt wont be able to delay or they will be voted out at the election

The UK govt will only be 50pc of the negotiations. I see no reason why the EU would be in any hurry at all to apply effort to drawing up new trade agreements to hasten Britain’s departure.

And that assumes genuine agreement is easy.

What happens when. The EU want to charge us 10 billion for free trade but we think free trade is worth 7.5 billion? Which side is going to compromise and why? (Numbers made up to demonstrate the point).

How long is it going to take to do that? 5, 10, 20 years? We could enter a perpetual state of ‘leaving soon’ until a future govt had another referendum to get a ‘stay in’ result.

Fantasy land. Honestly, I’m trying to respond to this stuff sensibly but you guys aren’t making it easy. So even though we vote to leave, we won’t, the rest of Europe will be so desperate for us to stay they’ll maintain our preferential status until at some point in the medium term, we decide to rejoin. Whilst all this is going on, nothing will change and it’ll be like nothing ever happened. 😆

I imagine we stop paying and continue to free trade and force them to reach an agreement

whatever happens it wont be a 10-20 year stand off.

Clearly any negotiation will be tense and difficult but some agreement will be reached.

The EU want to charge us 10 billion for free trade but we think free trade is worth 7.5 billion? Which side is going to compromise and why?

Why on earth would the EU compromise in this situation?

dazh – Member
No ones getting emotional, apart from maybe one person who everyone ignores anyway.

I supposed that must be me! Woohoo! 😆

I am here to open up the arguments i.e. a different way of looking at the same things coz you lot are either predictable or boring.

I may not have all the statistical information on me but all you got to do is follow my logic to investigate things for yourself. Try it then be critical of the information you get … you will be surprised what you will fine. Not everything is seen as it is …

No, I am here to ask for your approval nor to please or to suck up … Nope!

This is a “public forum” and I ain’t posting to reply to you but open all to the critical views of the whole world!

You might prefer not to understand me but others will … 😀

Hellooo! This is interweb! 😆

edit: I like BritLand ways of side swiping their opponent(s) or giving the the cold shoulder/send them to Coventry (used to live there) etc … very funny that. Only in BritLand I see that. In other part of the world they go ape shite chopping each other to pieces …

EU referendum … The way to vote.

Vote Out

Four simple factors to consider:

Power – you will be better off in charge of you own destiny – you can scream and kick the politicians right at your doorsteps as you wish in the UK. But if you have EU bureaucrats you will have to spend a lot of money traveling to their place of residence to protest … they might not even understand you as they are speaking in different languages.

The economy argument – only affect the rich, the one that squandered state money, the ones waiting for handouts, the corporation or organisation that have no intention of helping the local people (now they are threatening the nation to dis-invest), those businesses that depend a lot on subsidies but by their own have no profit (failed business model).

The security argument – Nato is there and you will still help your neighbours.

The boarder control – That’s what passport is meant for. Use your passport!

The rest of the arguments are just very fine details that will confuse you … try not to be side steps by the details coz they are to confuse.

Inners : “There’s no way the EU would let us have free trade if we vote out!”

Outers : “We are such a big export market for Germany and France that they would have to agree to free trade”

I can’t see how one side or the other can be so sure they are right.

ctk – Member

Inners : “There’s no way the EU would let us have free trade if we vote out!”

Outers : “We are such a big export market for Germany and France that they would have to agree to free trade”

I can’t see how one side or the other can be so sure they are right.

Hence the economy argument is unsustainable. Because business will adjust accordingly due to the attraction of the £, EURO and $ dangling in front of them. Any business that complains about this or that because they know they cannot have an easy ride and some of their competitors will over take them.

The entire argument is about Power.

Control or be controlled.

The rest are just information to confuse.

Definitely Leave, Cameron isn’t even asking for the right or even remotely significant changes. We will be much better off out, the EU will sign any trade deal we want as we spend £60bn (?) more with them than they do with us. We’ll savs billions on EU funding, be abke to properly tax Google, Apple, Facebook, Starbucks, Amazon etc, cut politican numbers and take back control of our own destiny instead of being drawn further into the EU superstate. Almost everything the EU has touched from border control, tax, euro and foreign policy has been an unmitigated disaster. All this and they want more inckuding an Army FFS.

Have signed up to Vote Leave, made an initial donation and will be doing some volunteering canvassing / stall manning. Like the Scottish Referendum this will be a once in a lifetime opportunity, we’ll almost certInly never be asked again.

Will catch up on all the posts here when I get more connectivity tomorrow or Thursday.

in, personally and professionally.

be abke to properly tax Google, Apple, Facebook, Starbucks, Amazon et

you are surely joking??

http://www.eurolabour.org.uk/tory-ukip-meps-eu-proposals-tax-dodging

Like the Scottish Referendum this will be a once in a lifetime opportunity,

unless we do leave and scotland decides to leave the UK….

the EU will sign any trade deal we want as we spend £60bn (?) more with them than they do with us.

Stupid arrogant twaddle- the economy x 5 of ours that we have just withdrawn funding from after they bent over backwards to get us to stay will somehow have to let us. *
I am surprised so many folk, not this poster mind, think we can somehow leave the club and remain within the free trade bit as they need us
Its bizarre we hold two fingers up to them and then we withdraw money, they we wont play by their rules but they wont be able to let us go….It is the dumbest argument imaginable yet it is oft repeated

You cannot get a divorce then cherry pick the bits you wont to keep because they cannot cope without you.

We’ll savs billions on EU funding, be abke to properly tax Google, Apple, Facebook, Starbucks, Amazon

I just laughed at that . The notion that the Tories want to high tax and Europe is stopping them is so poor its not even a jambyfact its just a lie. No one thinks this is really the cause.

* I am sure both sides will want trade to remain but thinking the UK can dictate to the EU is like thinking Scotland could have dictated to the rUK

It’s really frustrating. I’m naturally an internationalist/pro european person but this particular EU is shit frankly. So it’s more or less deciding which option I dislike less.

I think a couple of folks have said it already but the greek crisis basically said to me the EU is ****ed. Not the euro, not the parliament, but the entire game. Watching the big powers brutalise a small player just to provide an example and keep everyone in their place, that’s not a union. Can Britain in the EU influence that? TBH I doubt it. All of the major powers seem intent on making things worse not better, and all we want to do is fiddle with trivial details in the most parochial way. The only time we take any leadership is to do something crap.

“We’ll savs billions on EU funding, be abke to properly tax Google, Apple, Facebook, Starbucks, Amazon”

I just laughed at that . The notion that the Tories want to high tax and Europe is stopping them is so poor its not even a jambyfact its just a lie. No one thinks this is really the cause.

The disadvantage of blocking jamba is that I probably tend to miss LOL moments like that.

This.

I have personally benefited enormously from the freedom to work etc in the EU, but I really hesitate to vote “in” for the reasons you list.

The disadvantage of blocking jamba is that I probably tend to miss LOL moments like that.

Indeed I only read because he does come out with some [unintentional] gems

I am hoping he replies with an appeal to his own authority

be abke to properly tax Google, Apple, Facebook, Starbucks, Amazon etc

Even for you Jam this is risible. You are aware that just recently the UK government sold out to Google on this issue and about a week later the EU government is proposing closing the evasion loopholes?

This is the total opposite of what you’ve suggested. Even if you secretly thought the opposite, saying it now given these two news articles shows absolutely hopeless understanding of the public debate. Are you actually George Osborne?

A key benefit of the EU is that it forms a much larger bloc than the individual countries. So whilst Google &co can play us off against each other by claiming turnover in a lower tax jurisdiction, that’s harder to pull off if there are EU wide rules to stop it. The EU as a whole is a huge market for any multinational company, far bigger than the UK.

jambalaya – Member

Have signed up to Vote Leave, made an initial donation and will be doing some volunteering canvassing / stall manning.

So now its finally revealed who’s funding UKIP. Cheers!

😆

unless we do leave and scotland decides to leave the UK….

🙄 How many times?

How many times?

As many as it takes.

32?

Just once, but it may take many votes to get there, a bit like the Irish vote for the Lisbon Treaty.

We will be much better off out,

Says someone who is married to/living with French lady, works for a company that has offices in Paris (are you still in Paris Jamby?) and does business all over the world. Cut off your nose to spite your face.

I can find many flaws with the EU, mainly the lack of eurobonds despite a European central bank and an uneven economic playing field. However on a personal level I value the rights and freedoms its given me.

I’m in either way, but can’t vote.

If all the immigrants left the UK, and all the UK ex-pats came back, there’d be more people here.

It’s really frustrating. I’m naturally an internationalist/pro european person but this particular EU is shit frankly. So it’s more or less deciding which option I dislike less.

I think a couple of folks have said it already but the greek crisis basically said to me the EU is ****ed. Not the euro, not the parliament, but the entire game

Very true, which is why I feel so frustrated by the current false debate. Cameron’s reforms (to scratch a broken record further) are a complete sideshow. The idea of a June/July referendum is totally absurd as we have no real idea on what we are saying yes/no to.

It is breath-taking dishonesty to suggest otherwise.

Merkel is the arch compromiser/pragmatist and he attitude towards the UK lends some support to Jamba’s view (roughly) on we all need each other. We do, and/but as we see now, we must do everything we can to avoid protectionism and isolationism. History tells us the folly of such approaches but the hyperbole around migrants shows how dangerous a threat that is.

All a buggers muddle. |But we should wait for the genuine questions:

1. Which countries are ready and able to from a monetary, fiscal and political union (and possibly share a common currency? [its not the current lot BTW]
2. Of those, who wants to?
3. For the rest, how do you want to interact with the core, with each other and with the RoW?

IMO – there is a very small number that qualify for (1), even if we do we (2) don’t want to, so it comes down to (3)

Unfortunately, the EU prefers to kick cans down the road (as Greece/EU banks and their NPLs etc illustrate only too well). so when will we be bale to have a proper referendum with a sensible question?

The answer – manana, demain, tomorrow….

In.

On cue, see that FR and De calling for greater fiscal union and common Treasury this morning. They are correct and it works for THEM.

Some of you do have a very low opinion of British people to take charge of their own destiny don’t you?

You would rather prefer to relinquish your own independence to bunch of bureaucrats than to govern independently. There are some very strong self interests here partly because many have connection to Europe mainland in whatever forms …

I will also see tactical voting from the North i.e. Scotland, with majority voting In to spike (IMO) the South, Scots’ traditional foe, but if they do so then the Scots are merely exchanging one foe for another. Coz they will still be dictated too but this time by the bunch of bureaucrats much more further and much more difficult to deal with.

To the Scottish people … (assuming that you achieve your goal of independence under the UK full EU membership) if you vote In then you will have no much control over your own destiny and will be at the mercy of a gigantic bureaucratic machine. You think the South is difficult to deal with wait till you have to deal with a machine. You can scream and cry but the machine will not be deterred and you will just be another resources to be consumed.

I see you coming and I tell you so … obvious is obvious. 😯

the greek crisis basically said to me the EU is ****ed. Not the euro, not the parliament, but the entire game

Hmm – but what’s the alternative?

a) Give up on the whole idea of cooperation
b) Chuck it out and start again, from scratch
c) Sort out the problems with the current EU

It would be interesting indeed if options b and c were on the table.