EU Referendum – are you in or out?

The tory /lib dem coalition is starting to look like halcyon days compared to this bonfire.

History will judge him as the lefts equivalent to Boris Johnson. A spineless opportunist who was just in it for himself

That’s a little unfair. Boris has to answer for the utter incompetence of the Garden Bridge and £53million waste of taxpayer money.

I too am in the **** incensed and nigh unto violence camp as the self-indulgent at Westminster squabble amongst themselves. It’s an utter disgrace. Our current European partners are waiting for someone, anyone with a clue to step forward and propose something sensible.

Corbyn sat on the fence for too long, similar to May he has treid to find a middle way that pleases no one.

His problem now is that his reneging on his promise to listen to members & push for a 2nd ref has blown his credibility with the liberal middle classes & the young remain voters he attracted last time..

No matter how bad the Tories screw up Brexit, labour are simply viewed by many as a party of old men that dislike the EU now.

Brexit has become the defining issue of our politics but both main parties are still to scared to pick a side

good summary of the fantasy of Brexit http://politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/02/14/may-s-latest-brexit-defeat-the-edifice-of-nonsense-comes-tum

What would a split party end up doing?

As you say, the primary result would be the end of the party’s chances of ever being able to govern with a majority. In labour’s case that’s probably not a massive problem as the minority parties like the SNP, Lib Dems, Plaid Cymru and the Greens (all 1 of them) would support them. However it would still split the vote and massively increase the chances of a tory majority. So kiss goodbye to labour ever being in power again.

It’s even worse if the tories split as well, they’ll be held to ransom by the likes of the ERG, DUP and whatever Farage-ists gain seats.

The fact is that without an electorial system designed to cope with multiple parties and coalition politics, we’ll end up like Italy with a completely dysfunctional democracy, open to expropriation and corruption on a scale not seen before.

So given that we’re at absolute gridlock, what would happen if the opposition* party decided to actually do some opposing?

What happened if the opposition party actually stood up and actually vocalised the madness of this situation and made a case for a peoples vote, as their members had instructed them to do?

We’ll never know.

Check out the hardcore Cobynite sites like ‘red labour’ on Twitter and friendface. They’re rabidly opposed to a People’s vote, just like Corbyn is, because they want their Brexit.

They all still think it’s 1973 and they don’t want to be part of the common market.

I just hope that all the young optimists in Momentum who supported this idiot now realise the extent to which they’ve been played and conned.

There is no vision for a fairer future. There’s just a bunch of bitter old 1970’s Marxists who care as much for their future as Rees Mogg and his chums

This whole sorry farce is about keeping the Tories together. The short lived and unexpected 2015 result aside, the Conservatives haven’t won a commanding election majority since 1987. The lunatics want to go full on TurboFatcha but know they’ll never win an election alone. The moderates hate the lunatics almost as much as they do the Labour Party, but without the lunatics onboard they’ll never have a parliamentary majority.

At the risk of gloating, it’s a reflection of our fractured society and the Tories have reaped what they’ve sown. The referendum should’ve been a clarion call to fix society, but instead it’s been hijacked. We have a Prime Minister who is a habitual can-kicker – during her tenure heading the Home Office, the investigation into Westminster pederasts ended up with four unsuitable judges being appointed and then sacked in order to make the problem go away.

Either it’s a destructive Brexit or the Conservatives split. If that happens, the rump Tories won’t be troubled by actual power for a generation, so we’ll all be thrown under a train to keep the w*****rs together.

I’m starting to share Binners’ view about Corbyn. He’s about as much use as a handbrake in a canoe.

Lots of successful countries have a history of broad coalition government. Looking at the current shower of shit running things and in opposition, I’d say that, and PR, is exactly what this country needs.

What happened if the opposition party actually stood up and actually vocalised the madness of this situation and made a case for a peoples vote, as their members had instructed them to do?

See above. It’s a dead duck anyway, irrespective of labour support, there’s about as much support across parliament for a second referendum as there is a no deal brexit. Why campaign for something that will never happen and risk splitting the party in the process? It’s political suicide.

The ‘opposition’ you want will result in labour being out of power forever and perpetual tory govt. Given we’re about to leave the EU, does that increase or decrease the chances of a disaster capitalism brexit you rightly warn about?

So to recap

Tonight’s loss was worth sweet FA as it had no legal force…hahahaha

You couldn’t make it up why vote then

May says I’ll carry on regardless

Tonight’s loss was worth sweet FA as it had no legal force…hahahaha

You couldn’t make it up why vote then

May says I’ll carry on regardless

Well that is the short version….
Longer, the BBC covered it… but May can carry on, she doesn’t have a leg to stand on, won’t get her deal through and has sent a few over the edge. It’s a long game of procedural chess, I guess the movie will be a better watch

Both May and Corbyn are walking tightropes.

Corbyn is toeing his ideological line and doesn’t give a **** if that means the Labour party split. That is quite clear from the fact that he is happy to get in bed with the ERG and haemorrhage remainer votes.

Edit and deleted

That is quite clear from the fact that he is happy to get in bed with the ERG

So Corbyn wants to split his party and commit political suicide in order to find common cause with neo-fascist plutocrats funded by dark money? Care to share your views on 9/11, the moon landings and lizards ruling the world? You are David Icke and I claim my £5.

I have no idea what magic grandads motivations are. He’s hardly forthcoming on the subject

What I do know for sure is that ever since June 24th 2016 he has done everything in his power to facilitate a hard Brexit that is a wet dream of the hard right, and in doing so betraying everything the Labour Party is meant to stand for

Feel free to keep making excuses for him if you like. I don’t think it washes with many any more apart from the most terminally deluded

He’s either a hard right sleeper cell or a useful idiot

Take your pick…

Take your pick…

Well eventually you might get your shot with the Chuka Umunna party.

If even your constant bashing was relevant, the fact that you have formed all of your opinions about magic grandad at the expense of other decent policies that Labour could offer the country post Brexit – does nothing to ultimately resolve the downward trajectory delivered by the Tories.

I’m sure we could find people well to the left of Umunna who can see through Milne&Co.

Take your pick…

It will be like this except the camera will get nicked

What I do know for sure is that ever since June 24th 2016 he has done everything in his power to facilitate a hard Brexit that is a wet dream of the hard right

So how do you square this with the repeated and consistent call for a permanent customs union? I’m really not on a mission here to defend Corbyn, but I am trying to point out that labour’s policy is the only one that seeks to both bridge the leave-remain divide and offer something that the EU have indicated that they might be able to accept. Why is that such a crazy proposition? It seems to me that it’s the only option to avoid a no deal brexit.

You do get the concept that to actually deliver anything you actually have to be in power, right?

Guess who’s going to be in power on March 30th? Have a wild guess?

Clue: they’ve not got a beard

So, I may have spotted a flaw in the plan of using the EU exit to set up a socialist utopia.

Not least that you’ll have a Tory party, free from the shackles of the EU and with the far right wagging the dog to basically write our unwritten constitution with a blank sheet of paper

Good luck with the socialist utopia that’s going to bring about

(whisper it … the current Withdrawl Agreement already includes “a” Customs Union ’till something that delivers the same benefits can be arrived at … but most of the UK leaves “the” Single Market and “the” Customs Union at the end of the transition period … which it will still have to, no mattter what, unless someone budges on FoM … May and Corbyn are in the same place really … but their parties are not)

Daz – how many times?

To stay in the customs union you have to accept freedom of movement. Corbyn has put this as a red line. You can’t have one without the other

You know….. red unicorns

So Corbyn wants to split his party and commit political suicide in order to find common cause with neo-fascist plutocrats funded by dark money

Yes. But he is not intentionally finding common cause with neo fascists, he just ended up there because his brand of left wing politics has always found common cause with fascists. That point has been made abundantly clear by modern history, they feed off each other. The political spectrum is a horseshoe after all.

Corby is a blinkered true believer.

You do get the concept that to actually deliver anything you actually have to be in power, right?

See above again. Which of the options open to labour maximise the chances of them being able to be win an election? It’s certainly not the ones which result in a split in the party.

Not least that you’ll have a Tory party, free from the shackles of the EU and with the far right wagging the dog to basically write our unwritten constitution with a blank sheet of paper

See above again. How does labour committing political suicide help prevent a tory party doing exactly what you say? So a different question from the ‘what should labour do?’ which never gets an answer: How can the tories be defeated without a united labour party?

Here’s a question…the two party system is ****…but what do you replace it with

Which of the options open to labour maximise the chances of them being able to be win an election? It’s certainly not the ones which result in a split in the party

Well, they are being split by not supporting remain strongly enough….

He doesn’t give a **** if remainers split away either, not because it wouldn’t hurt the party but because they are not his ideological bedfellows.

You are literally giving him too much credit, this is a guy who likes to dress with a bit of Troysky-chic as if he is still 17.

I have been following the Brexit saga quite closely. But I have no idea what the vote was on that was lost today, can anyone fill me in?

Most news stories are just carrying the details of the defeat and potential ramifications, rather than what the vote was actually on..

That point has been made abundantly clear by modern history, they feed off each other. The political spectrum is a horseshoe after all.

Ah right so now we’re equating Jeremy Corbyn to Stalin? Nicely done. It’s like an inverted Godwin’s Law. Honestly the hysteria on here is ridiculous, and probably indicative of why we are where we are. We really are truly f***** when otherwise intelligent people start making shit up. I used to think this was a peculiar brexiteer trait but now it seems to be universal. Honestly, if we do end up with no deal we’ll deserve everything we get. Night all. Been fun as always 🙂

this is a guy who likes to dress with a bit of Troysky-chic as if he is still 17

I think if you’re judging this by how Corbyn clothes himself then that says quite a lot.

But I have no idea what the vote was on that was lost today, can anyone fill me in?

Supporting the gov approach… that is… seeking an alternative to the backstop (which is currently the UK staying in Customs Union ’till other measures and a deal are in place that avoid a customs border on the island of Ireland, the backstop takes this form at the UK’s request, but now we want it changed at the last minute, because only now have MPs been consulted on it)… and in addition noting that parliament expressed it’s desire not to Leave without a Withdrawl Agreement. Simple.

ERG abstained, because they won’t support anything that doesn’t embrace a no deal Brexit as an option.

Labour whipped against because May hasn’t included a permanent customs union as an option (even though the deal already allows any future UK government to agree to one with the EU if it wishes).

You can see why it isn’t summed up in a subheading on a tabloid front page, or in a tweet from a journo.

Ah right so now we’re equating Jeremy Corbyn to Stalin? Nicely done. It’s like an inverted Godwin’s Law

No, I’m equating him and his view of how politics should be conducted with the Communists that had running street battles with fascists during the interwar period. During this period, the two ideologies fed off each other, attracted the same kinds of people and those people often swapped sides relatively easily. You might not be able to accuse him of the latter but a lot of his supporters would happily swing from labour to ukip.

I think if you’re judging this by how Corbyn clothes himself then that says quite a lot

What would you presume if Jacob Rees Mogg started waltzing about in Hugo Boss leathers?

Fantastic photo

What would you presume if Jacob Rees Mogg started waltzing about in Hugo Boss leathers?

I would presume not to have a clue what kind of point you are trying to make??!!

Check out the hardcore Cobynite sites like ‘red labour’ on Twitter and friendface. They’re rabidly opposed to a People’s vote, just like Corbyn is, because they want their Brexit.

Give it a f***ing rest, will you?

May wasn’t even in parliament for the vote last night…

Corbyn won’t get a GE before March.

Labour position doesn’t make sense. They forgot to include the people vote on the letter to the Pm.

And May is quite happy to wait as long as possible knowing that only the Libdem and SNP are trying to stop her.

Supporting Corbyn and Labour is helping Brexit and the Tories. Simple as that.

How does labour committing political suicide help prevent a tory party doing exactly what you say

Thats not really a bad thing for most of the “moderates”. Remember they arent really overly fond of actually having a left wing party and got very upset when the drive rightwards (especially economically) seems to have been temporarily halted by actually electing a left wing leader. A massive defeat would allow them a chance to regain control and, overall, they would probably be happy with the tories anyway (well until the ERG takes over).

That the Labour party diving rightwards helped contribute to this mess doesnt seem to have crossed their mind. The main problem with the “moderates” is they dont realise just how ideologically extreme they are.

A massive defeat would allow the a chance to regain control and, overall, they would probably be happy with the tories anyway (well until the ERG takes over).

I’m coming to the same conclusion. The cult of anti-corbynism has got to the point where they’ll risk an ERG lead brexit in order to get rid of him.

To stay in the customs union you have to accept freedom of movement. Corbyn has put this as a red line. You can’t have one without the other

Not true. If the set of red lines given to the EU was different they would come back with a different deal. If some of May’s other red lines were missing you can’t say what would be offered.

I’m coming to the same conclusion. The cult of anti-corbynism has got to the point where they’ll risk an ERG lead brexit in order to get rid of him.

Yep, peoples inability to look beyond Brexit and what party could get in is going to keep a Tory party in for a long time.

I’m coming to the same conclusion. The cult of anti-corbynism has got to the point where they’ll risk an ERG lead brexit in order to get rid of him.

What utter twoddle! You really have been drinking the cool aid, haven’t you?

The reason I object to Corbyn is exactly because he’s actively enabling an ERG led Brexit. And its not a ‘cult of anti-corbynism’, its absolute exasperation and despair with the actions of the present leader of the labour party*

The party exists to defend the interests of the working classes. Corbyns actions in facilitating Brexit will usher in the greatest assault on the rights of the working people since the Victoran era. If the ERG and the Tory right get their way (which lest we forget, is the default position on March 29th – Thanks for 3-line whipping that one Jezza!), they’ll make the skirmishes of the 80’s under Thatcher look like a picnic.

The fact that Corbyn and his cabal either can’t or won’t see this signals a total dereliction of duty IMHO.

* The phrase ‘leader of the labour party’ is used figuratively in this instance, and in no way implies any actual leadership