This from ONS in 2017

In 2017, the proportion of vapers was highest among current cigarette smokers (14.9%) and ex-cigarette smokers (11.3%). Only 0.4% of people who have never smoked reported that they currently vape.

This, for me, is a healthy situation – we are in the position where we do not know if there will be any long term effects of vaping, although the present evidence is reasonably positive. Whatever they are, it is almost certain they will be less of an issue than cigarettes.

So allowing cigarette smokers to move to vapes and get some additional freedoms if they do (eg vaping in pubs) is likely to be good for everyone. Not necessarily for the public finances, unless they start taxing the stuff.

However, until we know more, I’d be in favour of keeping that 0.4% figure steady – there is enough about vaping that is attractive to smokers (price/health/using them in pubs), we don’t need to add things that will make them more attractive to never-smokers.

When you look at the list of tobacco companies that are piling into this market, which I think is worth 50 bn worldwide now, you can see that in order to keep growing it, they need to market it to new consumers, not just middle aged blokes who used to smoke like a chimney. That’s still their business model with cigarettes, except their growing markets for new, young victims are in developing countries.

So the lobbying to allow advertising will be intense, and I don’t trust a report from a group of MPs to be unaffected by it.

I’ve never met a single person who’s just got up one day and thought “that vaping lark looks great! I’ve never smoked but I reckon I need nicotine in my life, so I’ll give that a go!”

Why would this be different to the people who just got up one day and thought “that smoking lark looks great! I know it has a fairly significant chance of causing me potentially fatal harm, but I reckon I need nicotine in my life, so I’ll give that a go!”?

Zero problem with vaping

Huge problem with people blowing huge clouds of steam into my face. Just because it smells of candyfloss doesn’t make it acceptable. It’s massively rude.

The machines can be made so that they don’t make you belch the huge clouds so there’s no excuse for being a douchebag cloud machine

What I object to is people using the term douchebag unless they’re called Chad Hogan and are a 15 year old at a high school in California

The best way to prove that is with some better stats or research though.

@mikewsmith

The point is that binners and I have experience and tap to lots of vapers about vaping… habits, quitting smoking etc.

Standing outside a pub in the sleet or other similar situations is a lot like sitting in a cafe at a dedicated trail centre in that it naturally promotes conversation on the subject ….

If I wanted I could find loads of statistics that show why we don’t need suspension, hydraulic brakes, stem or bar length etc.  I could go to a roady cafe somewhere and get lots of data but that data will be very different from the top of the uplift at FW…

As I say, if I wanted … but you and I both know that the data would change massively depending where we asked and HOW we phrased the questions.

When you stand outside a pub,airport, work or similar in the sleet the conversation is quite naturally biassed towards vaping and smoking and lots of smokers are very curious as they want to give up or just cut down anyway.

I don’t need a clipboard to know what people say and I meet hundreds, perhaps thousands.

I acknowledge some people may take up vaping… but I’ve never met anyone that has said that and it must be thousands.  It’s totally possible to be at the top of FW and have a conversation about the merits of 13 speed and bar ends… it’s just really unlikely though I’m sure it’s happened.

Nearly all the conversation (other than being British and talking about the weather) tends to be … Have you quit completely, how many were you smoking, where do you get your fluids…what did you try before e-cigs/vaping, have you managed to reduce your nicotine, are you trying to quit vaping as well etc. etc.

I could however completely change the results… I could ask if someone ever uses a stem longer than 50mm or bar ends or rim brakes… and a large proportion would probably say yes … or have you used any of these in the last 5 years etc.

There is a stunning amount of data proving bike helmets do nothing to protect a rider … this is frankly ludicrous if you ride downhill…. perhaps less so if you only ride canal paths at 5 mph.

I’m naturally very sceptical of anything published by ASH… and any ‘data’ from a survey that doesn’t give the sampling conditions and questions asked.  Quite frankly, 50 new vapers to every smoker is off the scale wrong based on hundreds or thousands of conversations….

I’m naturally very sceptical of anything published by ASH… and any ‘data’ from a survey that doesn’t give the sampling conditions and questions asked.  Quite frankly, 50 new vapers to every smoker is off the scale wrong based on hundreds or thousands of conversations….

There was data from other sources that showed it too, also the other surveys who found shops promoting hard to non smokers etc.

The one survey the industry wants to stay well away from – and politicians probably is one to determine how many people took it up that were not smokers.

According to the department of health, e-cigarettes contribute to 20000 “quits” every year, which is great. But there’s almost 3 million vapers.

But to ask which bit of this is bollocks? Becasue at that rate it would take 150 years to get to 3 million.

In 2016, 15.8% of adults in the UK smoked, down from 17.2% in 2015, according to data from the Office for National Statistics (ONS).

Some 15.5% of adults currently smoke in England, rising to 18.1% in Northern Ireland, 17.7% in Scotland and 16.9% in Wales.

Across the UK, 5.6% of people – around 2.9 million – used e-cigarettes in 2016.

“Approximately 100,000 people die needlessly from smoking-related diseases every year in our hospitals – it’s time to tackle the human and financial cost the tobacco industry creates.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jun/15/smoking-rate-in-uk-falls-to-second-lowest-in-europe

So if you lose 100,000 Smokers per year to death it doesn’t stack up that all the vapers are coming from smokers especially as there are other methods to quit available to people who want rid of nicotine too.

Smoking actually give the government a captive targeted marketing campaign too, they could charge companies to advertise on cigarette packets rather then on billboards or on the street.

So allowing cigarette smokers to move to vapes and get some additional freedoms if they do (eg vaping in pubs) is likely to be good for everyone.

good, compared to not sucking in somebody else vape fumes ? Who knows what the health issues are ?

 Only 0.4% of people who have never smoked reported that they currently vape.

@martinhutch

Sounds far more realistic to me….

Even then although the ONS is a far better source it can/could be misleadingly high…. or the word currently needs examining….

I think what would show a picture is how many fags a day back 10 years on the same axis how many cc of fluid or puff/day … etc.

Some people still smoke… though much less… others might only vape when they can’t smoke … and some might smoke only when they can’t vape  (probably less but that is me… in some countries I can’t get fluid and resort to smoking again…)

@Vikkipea (and others)

Millions of people made the decision to start smoking in the past, perhaps encouraged by advertising and widespread smoking in public places. Why wouldn’t the same happen with vaping if it was aggressively marketed and allowed in public places?

Partly, times have moved on…. but also just because vaping is much much less addictive.  Figures do vary as does how to measure but the chemicals in cigarettes that are present with the nicotine make it far more addictive.

This is answered a bit more in response to verses

@verses

Why would this be different to the people who just got up one day and thought “that smoking lark looks great! I know it has a fairly significant chance of causing me potentially fatal harm, but I reckon I need nicotine in my life, so I’ll give that a go!”?

Noone I know started smoking thinning they would be addicted …. nearly everyone thinks they will quit before … it’s just a laugh behind the bike sheds, Friday night at the pub etc.

Nicotine (along with the enhancers in tobacco smoke) however is a classic slippery slope… essentially you are way over the edge of the cliff before you realise it…

Nearly every vaper will tell you how it’s “missing something” which is I think partly why we add the flavours… vaping just keeps it at bay… so my opinion/feeling (there are figures bandied about) is you’d need to really try to get addicted starting off vaping… I know that’s just opinion and feeling but it’s something many vapers might also agree with?

Nearly every vaper will tell you how it’s “missing something” which is I think partly why we add the flavours… vaping just keeps it at bay… so my opinion/feeling (there are figures bandied about) is you’d need to really try to get addicted starting off vaping… I know that’s just opinion and feeling but it’s something many vapers might also agree with?

Well the only vapers you associate with are ex smokers so that makes sense, will those who don’t start as smokers miss what you are missing?

But to ask which bit of this is bollocks? Becasue at that rate it would take 150 years to get to 3 million.

@Mikesmith…. how do they define “quits” ???

I strongly suspect many of those smokers are also vapers   … and visa versa.

Have I smoked this year ?  Yes… I bought a packet in Baku where I couldn’t get fluid… the last time before that was months or a year before….  ?  Does that count as quitting?

From a health PoV am I concerned about 40 cigs in 2 yrs vs 22,000 I’d have smoked before?

So if you lose 100,000 Smokers per year to death it doesn’t stack up that all the vapers are coming from smokers especially as there are other methods to quit available to people who want rid of nicotine too.

Not everyone’s target is to be free of nicotine… that’s not a bad thing but if people can stop smoking (or even reduce it 550 times) being free of smoking is an immediate goal for many… you can do that and plant a line in the sand then go for the nicotine (or not)

Nearly all the remaining smokers have tried the other methods…

and in all seriousness … have you talked to hundreds of vapers ??? I have and I’ve yet to find one that wasn’t a smoker prior to vaping… some still some as well…

Smoking actually give the government a captive targeted marketing campaign too, they could charge companies to advertise on cigarette packets rather then on billboards or on the street.

In all seriousness, other than quit smoking products who would advertise on a cigarette packet?

and in all seriousness … have you talked to hundreds of vapers ??? I have and I’ve yet to find one that wasn’t a smoker prior to vaping… some still some as well…

No but the number and stats say they exist, the research on the other page had shops breaking their code of conduct and selling high nicotine products to non smokers. It’s happening. There is way more effort being put into marketing and capturing than the number of smokers currently still hanging on.

In all seriousness, other than quit smoking products who would advertise on a cigarette packet?

They were the ones I was suggesting, in tandem with banning all other advertising they do and sending them into plain packaging land. If people who don’t smoke, don’t take up vaping why do you need to advertise elsewhere?

Well the only vapers you associate with are ex smokers so that makes sense, will those who don’t start as smokers miss what you are missing?

Hard to tell…

Perhaps it’s only the ex smokers who feel the need to stand in the sleet and rain?  Maybe these 50 new vapers for very ex-smoker don’t have the same drive/addiction?   It’s possible but I can’t see it.

If you are arguing for the sake of it fair enough… if you really want to get an informed opinion it’s pretty simple to start a conversation in a smoking area… from experience you will be asking a long time before you find someone who just started vaping because it was “cool”.

Again, it depends how the questions are loaded…. I don’t make a habit of going to a sheesha bar… last time must have been 12-13yrs ago and before that probably another decade… but if you ask if I EVER then that is different.

I guess many people might TRY a vape out of curiosity…. but they are not turning up in smoking areas…

That to me sounds like a win either way….for PHE…

I agree that times have moved on, but that is surely related at least in part to the banning of cigarette adverts and banning smoking in public places?

When I was a kid and teenager, there were cig adverts everywhere, and cinemas, aeroplanes, pubs, clubs, trains, restaurants were polluted by a haze of smoke because it was socially acceptable. Now I am personally not bothered by a bit of “vapour, but I am bothered about a government trying to promote something that has no long term safety data. If the government really cared about our health they’d be doing a lot more about the obesity and type 2 diabetes “epidemic”.

No but the number and stats say they exist,

Exist ?  Or there are 50 new vapers for every ex-smoker.

I’m sure they exist… just like people ride FW DH with bar ends and 100mm stems… or people enter a XC race on a 180mm+ travel bike  etc.

However that is a long way from the norm… I could hang about FW and get figures of people at the top of the DH and ask them if they ever ride a 100mm stem … lots of them will ride road, commuters and XC bikes so the answer is YES… very very few will think to take that bike down the DH but I can infer I have data that people who DH use 100mm stems.

the research on the other page had shops breaking their code of conduct and selling high nicotine products to non smokers.

I’m hardly surprised but that doesn’t equate to people starting and continuing to vape.

Even if non-smokers were starting its still better than smoking and better above the counter than suspect liquids.

Some people are going to try regardless, just as some people will try any restricted drugs they can get hold of but that’s people for you.  PHE data which only accounts for people using the quit service shows e-cigs  and variants to be by far the most successful method… If a non smoking adult chooses to vape then .. well good luck?  If they are selling to minors that’s a different story and they need coming down on like a ton of bricks.

I had to go to a meeting once with an arrogant boss who assumed it would be fine for me to endure 2 hours of him puffing indulgently on a vape device all the time and I had a splitting headache for the rest of the day.

 If a non smoking adult chooses to vape then .. well good luck?  If they are selling to minors that’s a different story and they need coming down on like a ton of bricks.

Yeah or we could just be sensible and curtail advertising etc.

You seem to want to dismiss any stats that does not agree with your view there, a sample down your local might be one way but there is a big move from younger people away from pubs etc. so you might not have the whole picture.

Nothing anyone has suggested would restrict people from accessing stuff or using it in suitible places. However as with anything new perhaps we would be better off keeping a lid on this from the start. One of the big things is not to normalise a behaviour, would you suggest anybody acquire themselves a nicotine addiction?

You don’t need the advertising, you know it exists. You don’t need more places to use it.

I agree that times have moved on, but that is surely related at least in part to the banning of cigarette adverts and banning smoking in public places?

When I was a kid and teenager, there were cig adverts everywhere, and cinemas, aeroplanes, pubs, clubs, trains, restaurants were polluted by a haze of smoke because it was socially acceptable.

I think advertising is MASSIVELY overplayed.  It only really influences brand (IMHO) .. and even then I subscribe to Red Bull TV cycling… quite honestly almost nothing would get me to actually drink any!  (Maybe a nice bike and I’d down a can before throwing up off-camera)

Personally I think product placement in TV was far more successful… and the portrayal of the “cool smoker”…. but underlying everything was the deceptive addiction of cigarettes.  They just had to get people to get past the point and after that it was one brand vs other brands…

Now I am personally not bothered by a bit of “vapour, but I am bothered about a government trying to promote something that has no long term safety data. If the government really cared about our health they’d be doing a lot more about the obesity and type 2 diabetes “epidemic”.

The problem is what is long term….

We can look at the purer liquids that contain nicotine and glycerine … medicine has advanced so we have a good idea about long term health… it’s not perfect but its way better than we had in the 60’s… or 90’s

I’m in my 50’s so I won’t be around by the time any long term testing is available…. but I’d quite honestly take a very safe bet it will be very much less than smoking.  Quite how much less is probably down to regulation of purity and additives… again something the tobacco companies played with…

As the tobacco companies are jumping on the bandwagon BEFORE they go out of business there are plenty of people who just want to stick it to them… understandable but not at the expense of health and lives.

Obesity and Type II diabetes is .. well political.

I’m completely with you but the current political environment seems to be exerting more control than common sense.  Being a bit blunt it seems suggesting obese people should eat less and better and exercise more seems a political hot potato.

This turned up on my Instagram sponsored feed.

looks cool no?

https://www.instagram.com/vape_coachman

looks cool no?

Well it certainly looks like addiction.

looks cool no?

Not if you’re downwind.

I had to go to a meeting once with an arrogant boss who assumed it would be fine for me to endure 2 hours of him puffing indulgently on a vape device all the time and I had a splitting headache for the rest of the day.

If you didn’t have the bottle to ask him not to, then he probably would assume it was fine, (he’s still a dick for assuming, but if you didn’t like it, why didn’t you say something?)

The headache was more likely to do with your annoyance that you hadn’t stood up for yourself though, rather than inhaling some water vapour 👍

And there are certainly no people thinking customer for life 😉

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/27/science/juul-vaping-teen-marketing.html

I think vape coachman looks well cool! I’m going to buy an e-cig that can generate a cloud so big it looks like I’ve got a big fake Santa beard on, then I’ll accessorise it with cans of supermarket own-brand cider, which is also really cool!

Ya feel me braaa?

And there are certainly no people thinking customer for life..

They don’t need customers for life, Juul eliquid cost over £3500.00 per litre!

Mine costs a bit over £20 for the same amount.

Every industry has a minority of companies that coast along marketing crap products, at ridiculous prices, to idiots.

Juul is one of the e-cig industry’s classic examples.

Not in any way representative of the other 99.999% of the industry.