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Can't believe no one has done this......
Wahoooooo. Free hotel after a night out on the lash. 😀
are we copying the Americans again?
Are we talking nonsense again?
Cameron is. 🙂
Drunk tanks - whats the difference with the police cells used now?
Yo will still need someone to provide control and restraint, you will still need medical cover.
Years ago there was one in Edinburgh according to thd old timers I talked to. One large room with a central drain in the floor. You were best to get in early to get a space around the edge and the latecomers got the centre where the pish all drained into
As for minimum pricing - a good idea but it does make me laugh. Tories and Labour adopted this as policy for Westmister while opposing it in Holyrood . Can't bear to back a SNP idea
Lot of rubbish talked about minimum pricing affect all drinkers - pish as they say - nothing I drink costs less than 40p a unit
I can't see minimum pricing working.
I mean it's not as if drugs are cheap, but plenty manage to afford them.
TBH, I heard this on the radio this morning, and really, it's not really the governments business what/how much I drink, wish they would just piss off trying to run my life.
Lot of rubbish talked about minimum pricing affect all drinkers - pish as they say - nothing I drink costs less than £40p a unit
Jings; £40 a unit! So vintage Claret washed down with single cask,limited run Islay Malts. Bllody fat-cat Edinburgers.
Emsz - a good point you make, but some people are clearly not capable of running their own. So where do you draw the line?
So vintage Claret washed down with single cask,limited run Islay Malts
It's the NuSocialist's tipple of choice don't ya know 😉
I ended up in a drunk tank once in my youth for telling a Policeman he looked like sloth from the goonies. It wasn't like a hotel in anyway whatsoever.
MAP is just another way of the judgemental ruling class saying that only the middle class and they can be trusted to drink, while the poor must be taxed into abstainance.
😳
extraneous £ edited out
Great now when I run out of taxi money I have somewhere free to stay 🙂
I still can't get the Pogues 'Fairy Tale of New York' out of my head...
"T'was christmas evening... in the drunk tank..."
Its all just typical political bluster. Typical Call-me-Dave. Grab the headlines for a couple of days, keep the Daily Mail on-side, before the 'policy' disappears into the ether. Never to be heard of again
Remember Blair's 'marching yobs to cashpoints to pay on-the-spot fines?
Same fing innit?
Well that died a death when Ewan Blair was found slumped in the gutter...
it's not really the governments business what/how much I drink, wish they would just piss off trying to run my life
This comment is fair enough in relation to responsible people, but there are a (seemingly vast) number of people who appear incapable of treating alcohol responsibly which has (often serious) repercussions - perhaps these people need treating like an adolescent seeing as they're behaving one.
If you read enough newspapers (and the readers comments where available) one thing you hear over and over again when any issues occur is "the Government should do x, y and z to address this" ... and when they do try and do x, y or z everyone complains that they're interfering too much and it's becoming a nanny state.
You can't have it both ways.
Either society takes responsibility for itself (which it is failing to do in many areas), or Government needs to step in like a Parent.
But it's not just drink, the govt seems to take an almost obsessive interest in what you eat as well...
it's not really the governments business what/how much I drink, wish they would just piss off trying to run my life
If you end up in A&E or in a police cell or with long term alcohol related health issues, then it becomes the business of every tax-payer.
Using that argument you could justify a 'health tax' on mountain bikes and gear as people are bound to fall off and hurt themselves.
If you end up in A&E or in a police cell or with long term alcohol related health issues, then it becomes the business of every tax-payer.
This. It costs tax payers to clean up the mess after everyones 'saturday night out', A&E expenses, ambulances, police resource etc... because people don't know when they've had to much and how to control themselves. This country is broken in the way we seem to applaud people who drink to excess and give kudos to people boasting about how much they can drink.
Kinda sad really.
Using that argument you could justify a 'health tax' on mountain bikes and gear as people are bound to fall off and hurt themselves
I'm not sure there are many other activities that are such a drian on the system as drinking. I don't see A&E rammed on a Friday or Saturday night with Mountain Bikers, or police cells overcrowed with lycra clad roadies.
But it's not just drink, the govt seems to take an almost obsessive interest in what you eat as well...
That's because people's diet is a major problem as well.
Why not have a vomit tank for people who have eaten too much junk food? It would save the taxpayer so much in long-term health care! Or why not have an individual ration each week of govt approved food and drink as we are all incapable of making the correct decision about what we consume into OUR bodies?
Jon - Glentress / innerliethan put half a dozen people in Borders general on average I beleive - needing more expensive care than monitoring and kicking out generally. Local ambulance service has had to buy a 4x4 ambulance.
we are all incapable of making the correct decision about what wwe consume into OUR bodies
Yes, most people are incapable based on what can be seen in most cities on an average weekend, and these people are a huge drain on resources during that time.
But it's not just drink, the govt seems to take an almost obsessive interest in what you eat as well...
I agree with this to an extent - info/advice is fine and necessary.
Although after a point I'd use the same arguement, considering the implications for society due to the growing obesity problem ... if people can't/won't take responsibility for themselves, someone's got to do it.
Or should the Govt just sit back and let people eat/drink themselves into health problems and an early grave?
Yeah, but let's imagine everyone gives up the fags and drink and takes up sport, instead of drunks u would just have loads of sports injuries. 😀 instead and Cameron would be telling us to stop!!
The radio just said looking after all the drunks costs £90.00 per year per taxpayer. I wonder how much Afghanistan is costing?
Everything costs something y'know?
Jon - Glentress / innerliethan put half a dozen people in Borders general on average I beleive - needing more expensive care than monitoring and kicking out generally. Local ambulance service has had to buy a 4x4 ambulance.
Fair enough TJ, but you're talking about specific MTB areas. You're not really suggesting that the country as a whole spends a comparable amount on mountain bikers than alcohol related a&e admissions? which is what I was getting at really. The individual cost per patient may be higher, but the over all cost isn't, even in Borders general I would guess.
Alcohol deserves more focus than mountain biking as a problem for the NHS.
£90.00 per year per taxpayer
I can think of much better things to put that money towards than scraping the inebriated off the pavement every Saturday night.
Perhaps the government should spend their time looking at why some people drink so much, rather than increasing the cost of living for everyone.
Putting the price of alcohol up will do nothing to curb binge drinking.
Loads of football related injuries every sat and sun.
Can we tax the hell out of that please. 🙂
yep fat tax*, alchy tax and smoking tax all seem like sensible ideas [i]to me[/i] but if we start on that track then I'm sure there's plenty of folk out there who think mtb tax, 5aside football tax and allsorts of other activity tax would be a good idea. Not sure I want to see that.Using that argument you could justify a 'health tax' on mountain bikes and gear as people are bound to fall off and hurt themselves.
*tax, fine, refusal to treat at hospital whatever
Yeah, but let's imagine everyone gives up the fags and drink and takes up sport, instead of drunks u would just have loads of sports injuries
The difference would be that people who drink and eat junk all the time are more likely to end up wrecks in old age and costing the taxpayer a lot more money than those who exercise and keep fit.
I wonder how much Afghanistan is costing?
It's a bit spurious, as the two things are unrelated.
However - I wonder if that £90 is the actual cost of sorting them all out, or the NET cost after the tax revenue they bring in? They pay an awful lot of tax on all that booze, I wonder how much the treasury would lose if they stopped bingeing and spent their money on something else instead?
Jon - Glentress / innerliethan put half a dozen people in Borders general on average I beleive - needing more expensive care than monitoring and kicking out generally. Local ambulance service has had to buy a 4x4 ambulance.
It's all about cost vs benefits tho isn't it. If, say, 1000 people a week ride at Inners/Glentress and all have better health as a result of getting some exercise, the benefit (or cost savings even, if you assume they therefore consume less healthcare) of this offsets the cost of patching up 6 or so people in A&E (although the local NHS Trust probably don't see it this way as they are footing the cost without seeing much of the benefits!).
If 1000 people go out and get lashed on a Friday night and 6 or so end up in A&E/the cells, the costs are clear but I'm struggling to find any benefits, apart from to the profits of pub chains....
If 1000 people go out and get lashed on a Friday night and 6 or so end up in A&E/the cells, the costs are clear but I'm struggling to find any benefits
1000 people.. say 9 pints or equivalent each that's 9000 pints. Roughly 40p/pint depending on the beer, plus 20% on £3 that's £9k in govt revenue. Then there are more fringe economic inputs - taxi fares, the profits of the pub landlords, the fancy clothes and shoes people buy to drink in.
If 1000 people go to a trail centre on a weekend - someone else work that out I've got expenses to do. Petrol duty, some of them will have a car solely for this purpose. Also the cost of their bikes should be factored in.
shoes people buy to drink in
People buy shoes just for drinking in?! Wow.
Perhaps the government should spend their time looking at why some people drink so much, rather than increasing the cost of living for everyone.Putting the price of alcohol up will do nothing to curb binge drinking.
This. But that would be too much like hard work. A knee jerk reaction like minimum pricing is far easier. Governments need to realise that taxation and/or fiddling with pricing isn't the only answer to every problem.
I would respectfully suggest that it would be prudent for a rural ambulance service to own one anyway... MTBers are not the only punters...TJ - Local ambulance service has had to buy a 4x4 ambulance.
Anyone who thinks that the lack of personal responsibility demonstrated by a significant minority of utter t@&£s isn't a real problem that needs addressing, should spend a shift with a weekend nightshift Ambo crew or Cas unit... 😯
FWIW, I think this drunk tank idea [i]could[/i] be a good idea, implemented properly and sufficiently expensive/unpleasant as to act as a real deterrent, of which there really isn't right now. The police won't even have them in there cells any more, (apparently it looks bad when they die choked on there own vomit. Personally I couldn't give a shit...)
As an A&E doctor who still occasionally rides an MTB I probably have the right to an opinion on this....
I don't mind treating anyone who turns up, it's kinda what I get paid for. However it annoys me having to treat people who turn up for no other reason than they are absolutely wasted. I don't mind if you have had a few drinks and fallen over, it happens to the best of us, but if your only complaint is that you have got so drunk that you've shit yourself I'm not entirely sure how that suddenly becomes my problem.
With regard to the 'people injure themselves getting fit' argument I disagree. People don't go out on their bikes with the express intent of injuring themselves, these are called accidents; people do go out on a night out with the express intent of getting so wasted they can no longer stand/getting into a fight.
Minimum pricing - this, I think, would be a good idea. There are bars in the city where I work where you can get a treble and a mixer for under £2. This, plus other 'Happy Hour' type drinks promotions, encourages people to drink far more than is sensible, in too short a period of time. I accept that there is an argument for peoples liberty to do as they please, as put forward by Emsz above, but a large proportion of society have repeatedly shown that they will not take responsibility for their own actions, and this is where the government has to step in. Minimum pricing would not affect most peoples drinking but it would mean that a subsection of our society would be able to afford either less shots on a night out, or less nights out; both of these are good things.
Cynic-al - drugs are on the whole very cheap. Cheaper than a night on the lash. Ecstasy currently retails at a fiver for two pills in my neck of the woods and heroin is down to around four quid a wrap, cocaine is around £20 a gramme. It is being addicted and requiring ever increasing doses and not having a job that makes it seem expensive. (FWIW I wish the government would get around to legalising and controlling ecstasy as I very rarely see anyone who has taken too many E's and got in a fight/fallen over and shit themselves.)
As for the costs.... It's not just the alleged £90 per taxpayer, which must include chronic alcohol related problems as most of the inebriated I see don't actually require anything doing other than paring in a wheelchair and keeping an eye on until they are sober enough to clean up their own vomit/poo (yes, we do make them). However, it's not just the monetary costs, I do have to spend some time making sure that these people are actually just drunk and not injured/hypoglycaemic etc. This time could be better spent doing something more useful, like looking after your gran in cubicle seven while she has a heart attack......
Anyway, enough prattling on from me.... Any questions?
Easy way to do it, round them up like cattle at 2am, throw them in the back of a few ford transits. Lock them in an old warehouse to sleep it off - whoever makes it out alive should be escorted back to the city center to clean up the litter, vomit and piss left behind by their fellow 'party goers'.
Anyway, enough prattling on from me.... Any questions?
What's your favorite colour ? And why... ?
People don't go out on their bikes with the express intent of injuring themselves, these are called accidents; people do go out on a night out with the express intent of getting so wasted they can no longer stand/getting into a fight.
This is the crucial difference. I don't mind 'taxpayers money' convering treatment of people accidentally injured doing something constructive (sport, hobby, trade etc).
Getting wasted on alcohol does not fall into this category.
I despair that deliberately getting massively drunk is the best thing some people aspire to do with their time and money.
[i] a large proportion of society have repeatedly shown that they will not take responsibility for their own actions, [b]and this is where the government has to step in[/i][/b]
why? seriously why? their choice, no one's forcing them to do it, let them.
[i]I despair that deliberately getting massively drunk is the best thing some people aspire to do with their time and money.[/i]
get you! so what? no ones forcing you to join in, they don't care what you think of them, why are you bothered?
Prezet - Thanks, nice to be appreciated occasionally (rather than the usual ignored or being told to **** off, or that "I pay your wages' - really that one never gets old and actually I think you'll find that it's me that pays your benefits)
allthepies - red - Coz' red ones go faster (well known FACT)
Emsz - because it is negatively impacting on the rest of society?
(Some parts of it directly [police, ambulance staff, hospital staff, people who live/work in town centers] and some indirectly [alleged cost of£90 to every taxpayer])
As for minimum pricing - a good idea but it does make me laugh. Tories and Labour adopted this as policy for Westmister while opposing it in Holyrood . Can't bear to back a SNP idea
Isn't your usual argument that the SNP has a majority? If so then it must be voting against it's own plans. And besides, if you were independant you'd have these people with even more power and even less likely to do what wesminster MP's do. And you're already complaining about it?
As for the MTB Vs Drinking debate. Think about sport in general, I've never been in A&E on a Saturday night (thursday night yes after falling over while almost sober and depositing several pints of blood ont he pavement from my head), but Saturday/Sunday daytime the place is packed with sports injuries.
A broken forearm for example costs anywhere between £5k and 10k to fix apaprently, and I've not paid that much VAT on my bikes.
tinas - this was a couple of years ago when the snp were running a minority government. tories and labour blocked the introduction of minimum pricing in Scotland at the same time as the london parties adopted it.
Just an aside to laugh at the childishness and hypocrisy of politicians
because the ****less eejits make it our problem when they start costing us money and wasting our good health and police service's time. If they go out with the intention of getting absolutely blotto with a sensible plan about who is going to look after them and get them home then fair play, each to their own. But many don't. They have a sense of entitlement, that it's their god given right to have the system look after them. It's taking the piss out of all of us.why? seriously why? their choice, no one's forcing them to do it, let them.
And having to work really hard to persuade an 86 year old woman to go to hospital because she needs to, but doesn't want to because its Friday night and the Cas is going to be heaving with pissheads (she's right you know) is not my idea of fair.
sorry I mentioned the MTB crashing thing - it was in response to someone else and clearly spurious I thought.
Another interesting part of that is of course borders general has developed a high level of expertise in dealing with these injuries I bet. so perhpas they should be paying us for providing such good teaching opportunities
why? seriously why? their choice, no one's forcing them to do it, let them
Erm. Because it's unhealthy for them & wider society.
My 5yo son would happily spend the entire day drinking coke & playing on the playstation. That would be his choice. But my wife and I (the 'Government' in our house 🙂 ) advise him why this is not a good idea and put rules in place so that he learns moderation and the healthy way to enjoy these things etc (plus obedience to his parents ...)
If you expect to be treated like a responsible adult then behave like one, otherwise the Govt will be forced to treat you like a child and impose rules, restrictions and punishments ...
they don't care
Sums up some peoples attitude very well.
They don't care about what effect their actions are having on others.
Not something to be proud of really is it?
OK, so how about a campaign that instead of saying "don't drink so much" One that says "YOU drink? it's YOUR problem, we're not gonna help"
LOL 😆
vote for me, you know it makes sense!!
so perhpas they should be paying us for providing such good teaching opportunities
That's a lovely and unexpected twist... I like 😆
OK, so how about a campaign that instead of saying "don't drink so much" One that says "YOU drink? it's YOUR problem, we're not gonna help"
LOL
vote for me, you know it makes sense
Wouldn't that be bleeding wonderful! [i]Apparently[/i] it's not ethical to leave someone to die in the gutter when you are a supposed 'caring professional' though... 😳 so the next best thing would be to chuck 'em in a drunk tank where they get their airway maintained, other possible causes/issues watched out for and a big fat bill/fine in the morning...
Dr death.
20 quid a gram for cocaine?
Where do you live?
😀
North East
(it seems to be shite though, the locals are taking grammes at a time so it is probably mostly baking powder)
useless hippy - it will be "cocaine" not cocaine.
There can't be any actuall cocaine in a 20 quid gram of cocaine.
(it seems to be shite though, the locals are taking grammes at a time so it is probably mostly baking powder)
Note to self; self raising DOES NOT = better high...
😆Note to self; self raising DOES NOT = better high...
This is the crucial difference. I don't mind 'taxpayers money' convering treatment of people accidentally injured doing something constructive (sport, hobby, trade etc).Getting wasted on alcohol does not fall into this category.
Not sure I can see any real difference when it comes to ambulance usage etc. - you might go out to get wasted (or indeed, clear that jump you've never managed before) but you're unlikely to be planning on needing A&E care. The big difference is the scale - if 1000s of people were getting injured on a weekly basis you can bet that the government would be talking about licencing, minimum skill levels or whatever.
Not sure I can see any real difference when it comes to ambulance usage etc
Speaking as the ambulance man, I can see a huge difference. It's in the attitude of the punter, and it's in the perception that the public (who are picking up the tab) have of said punter. There's a lot of sympathy for someone who has injured himself whilst takIng part in healthy activity, a lot less for your average incapable intoxicated and often incontinent pissed up pleb.
Rightly so, it's all about social acceptability.
If you visit Lothian and Borders police HQ at Fettes in Edinburgh, in reception there is a handcart dating from the mid 19th Century. This was used by the then Leith constabulary to round up all the drunk and incapables and toss them into the drunk tank. This government seems intent on taking all it's policy leads from the good old Victorians...next we'll be running hospitals and education on a private basis, with only those who can pay their own fees seeing any benefit. Oh wait a minute.....
I'm surprised Dave and his mates haven't just come out with the reintroduction of poorhouses/workhouses, transportation of criminals, or corporal punishment. Though I bet at least one of these has been suggested in private/off the record...
Death sez:and actually I think you'll find that it's me that pays your benefits)
🙂
Death, any idea how much it costs to treat a drunk? Medicine and consumables wise?
but if your only complaint is that you have got so drunk that you've shit yourself I'm not entirely sure how that suddenly becomes my problem.
Post of the week! 😆
According to this
9 billion was raised from alcohol duty, and according to this http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9083671/Health-minister-binge-drinking-costs-NHS-2.7bn-a-year.html binge drinking costs the NHS 2.7 billion a year, so aren't the drunkards subsidising the system for the rest of us?
Much of that £9bn will come from senisble drinkers though.
Pretty much what Dr_death said except the minimum charge thing I doubt will make much difference.
We've ran 'drug tanks' on New Year Eve in Newcastle, together with a Dr and St John's. Those that have had too much to drink get a mattress on the floor, some fluids and maybe IV ones a bit of a kip and then when they're more with it sent on their way.
Police cells now don't get used for drunks as much, it's not what they're there for for one and also they don't have on call medics readily available now in many areas. Where I work they have to drive 28 miles to take them into custody that can deal with drunks, given than they are often the only ones in the area and have to ask for a second officer to go with them from another area this takes 2 out of 2 large areas for several hours.
Did you see him today Dr_death are have you been off?
We've ran 'drug tanks'
Is that what you call your trucks??? we just call them motors... lol 😉
In all seriousness though, I despise the concept of the 'temporary minor injuries unit/booze bus/drunk tank' SJA thing. It's great for the ambulance service, all those red 1/cat A u/c patients that you get to within the 8 mins because they are classed as passing calls, but really, its just panda-ing to the pissheads and legitimising their often frankly disgraceful behaviour. A proper drunk tank would be police led, medic supported, with fixed penalty notices issued to all attenders.
In Edinburgh the drunks end up in the main cells fairly often. Sometimes collected from ~A&E
That's because it's a city so has the resources. I bet Haddington doesn't have the resources the same as Edinburgh.
Is that what you call your trucks??? we just call them motors... lol
Ooops!
I like you idea of penalties for being taken in, the did have Police in them that carted some off if their behaviour warranted it.
In Edinburgh the drunks end up in the main cells fairly often. Sometimes collected from ~A&E
I should imagine that there are quite a lot of regional variations. Where I used to work a drunk died in the cells a few years ago with resulting nasty repurcussions for the bobbies. trying to get them to take into custody anyone in even a mildly innebriated state was a knightmare for ages; It led to some ridiculous situations. I guess it largely depends on how well supported medically the custody suite in question is, as well.
Nurse practitioners on duty 24/7/365.
A proper drunk tank would be police led, medic supported, with fixed penalty notices issued to all attenders.
The idea of drunk tanks, at least according to the enabling legislation in Scotland - the Civic Govt Scot Act 1980 was to remove drunks from the criminal justice system. So why police led?
In 1980 legislation was introduced in Scotland for “designated places” where the police could take intoxicated people to sober up – thus diverting them from police custody. 40 years on it never happened. Not in Strathclyde anyway. Because nobody would pay for it. Drunks are still being cared for in police stations by staff with no medical qualifications bar a first aid course.
30 years ago police were quite happy to throw drunks in a cell. These days with better training about the risks and the possibility of alcohol masking other medical conditions they are more likely to be taken to A+E. I'm talking about near unconscious drunks here not staggering but still able to speak drunks.
I don't see either the NHS or the police diverting cash from their squeezed budgets to set uop drunk tanks. if it didn't happen in the good years despite the law being in place it won't happen now.
When Dave Cameron suggested drunk tanks did anyone ask him what budget the funding would come from?
Nurse practitioners on duty 24/7/365.
Yup resources.
Now there's a cushy number... <Wonders if a Paramedic practioner would fit the bill...>
Drunk tanks would need police to do control and restraint - or PCSOs