Drugs!

1/ What are the benefits to society that would justify the legalisation of drugs that are currently illegal ?

Prohibition does not work- even you have accepted its a “hope” that wont happen.
Legalising means it is controlled and regulated and not in the hands of criminals.
It would create jobs and revenue in a legitimate way as well as raising taxes
We could reduce the harm done by improving the quality of the product so that users dont die due to quality/impurity issues.
I could go on but it will fall on deaf ears

2/ If legalised how would the supply, quality control, taxation etc be regulated and administered.

Exactly the same way that alcohol or fags are or any other number of restricted products…Why are you asking that ? How many times do you need the same answer to that …its not like interstellar travel its very easy to do and we do it with lots of products

I have not yet received one coherent response to these two simple questions.

You are TJ and I claim my £5

You have recieved the answers you just dont want to engage or accept them

Judging by some of the remarks I have received I have obviously upset some people, this may be because the received view they hold on most drug related matters cannot be realistically defended

LOL you really are away with the fairies
You are the one who wont read links for example [ you are almost proud of this fact and berate folk for citing evidence], admit your views are prejudiced and unrelaistic [ a hope] and then you accuse others….lolz at the ironing

1/ What are the benefits to society that would justify the legalisation of drugs that are currently illegal ?

There are people in prison that are there because they have taken drugs that are illegal, if you decriminalise that, thousands of otherwise normal people are released from prison. Families will be complete again, they can get a job and pay tax…

How’s that?

Ok then, lets legalise recreational drug use , where do we start from ? How do we regulate, who do we consult with, how do we control the logistics of supply.
Do people really believe we could develop and implement a workable system, without disruption to the existing infrastructure, it would take international co- operation on a huge and unworkable scale a bit like the pipe dream that one day we will live on another planet.
Its a totally absurd and unworkable idea, the state would have to dismiss all previous criminality before it could properly engage in regulating the supply from the previous gangs who had control, an amnesty on murder and absolute villainy, if thats what you want then I pity you.

I’d say Holland would be a good place to start. Their recent amendments even go so far as to stop the obvious tourist trade of that particular market.

I also find it hard to believe that the Coffee Shops are trading with drug cartels but I’m open to being proved wrong.

As to the benefit – many a song played at a gig I’ve been to has apparently been written using the odd bit of weed and other stuff. That’s entertainment and entertainment makes folk happy. I know this is a good thing as I’ve dedicated countless hours of my life to Sid’s Civ…

If you going to legalise illegal drugs does that mean there is a possibility that guns should be legalised too?

I want Benelli M4 for the just in case scenario. Don’t you go around telling me that guns kill and violate your human rights. My human rights and freedom must be upheld. Guns don’t kill people do, guns save lives of innocent families.

A gun is not addictive but merely for self protection if zombie maggots roam the streets. Nobody should be forced to carry one but freely available for everyone to carry one.

It will benefit the govt because if you legalise guns the govt can increase their revenue via tax and with guns you need to train at the shoot range and bullet cost money and govt can tax that too.

If guns are legalised the prisoner number could be reduced and many family will be complete again because they are able to protect themselves from zombie maggots.

Guns don’t kill people do.

Guns save life.

How’s that?

🙄

How’s that?

For making you look more than a little silly?

It’s very good.

If you going to legalise illegal drugs does that mean there is a possibility that guns should be legalised too?

I think changing the law on one thing does not mean you have to change it on all things, it is idiotic to suggest otherwise.

If you want to break it down into a very simple (on the face of it) analysis, look at cost benefit analysis.

Cost/benefit of helmet compulsion (for example): Bad for overall health.

Cost/benefit of legalising recreational drugs: Possible increase in users might mean more stress on the health system. Better drug education, known quality of supply, takes trade away from criminals, crime reduction, lower policing costs and big tax revenue increase. Benefits out weight the costs.

Cost/benefit for gun ownership: Easy access to guns for everyone, including criminals. Police now need to be armed. Massive increase in costs for policing, health care and licensing. Benefit: A very few debatable points about self protection.

I think you can see it doesn’t really add up and your analogy doesn’t work.

Legalising means it is controlled and regulated and not in the hands of criminals.
It would create jobs and revenue in a legitimate way as well as raising taxes
We could reduce the harm done by improving the quality of the product so that users dont die due to quality/impurity issues

So you agree that we would need to establish a government run department/departments to do all of this ?

Once this is all up and running would the costs of this be met by the revenue taken in by the drug taxation, I can only assume you have checked the figures/financial model ?

Would these taxes be earmarked for use in drug related health services.

Or would the non-drug using tax payers have to subsidise what is essentially someone elses pleasure ?

Would the govt approved drugs meet the needs of the hardened drug user, would he be prepared to pay the new tax or would he just keep usng his old criminal supplier ?

The transition period from criminal supply to govt approved supply, how exactly would that work ?

Would the thriving criminal drug suppliers really give up their lucrative businesses overnight and get a job, handover the range rover sports etc.

So you agree that we would need to establish a government run department/departments to do all of this ?

Do we for alcohol or tobacco?

Once this is all up and running would the costs of this be met by the revenue taken in by the drug taxation, I can only assume you have checked the figures/financial model ?

Have you looked at tobacco and fags – do they make money 🙄

Very weak line of attack tbh. I guess this is what you ask if you dont care about evidence.

Would these taxes be earmarked for use in drug related health services.

Not a bad idea to use it for treatment but I doubt it all would

Or would the non-drug using tax payers have to subsidise what is essentially someone elses pleasure ?

What like non smokers and non drinkers subsidise smokers and drinkers??? Have you seen how much tax we raise from these? 77% of fags are tax for example

The Treasury earned £9.5 billion in revenue from tobacco duties in the financial year 2011- 2012 (excluding VAT).17 This amounts to 2% of total Government revenue. Including VAT at an estimated £2.6bn, total tobacco revenue was £12.1bn

Currently they earn nil from drugs and have associated costs
TBH I have no idea what on earth the point is you are trying to make there.

I cannot be bothered with the rest but yes there will be issues that need to be discussed and resolved.
Thankfully we have models of other controlled substances, evidence form other countries who have done it and it is not as hard as interplanetary space travel.

So you agree that we would need to establish a government run department/departments to do all of this ?

Given that there is already a department dealing with alcohol and tobacco etc (FDA I think) I’m sure an expansion of that department would cover it.

Once this is all up and running would the costs of this be met by the revenue taken in by the drug taxation, I can only assume you have checked the figures/financial model ?

I have no idea how much this would cost, but the tax intake from Colorado on weed alone was in the region of $2m in a month. I would suspect that this sort of rate of taxation would cover most, if not all of the costs associated with the new policy. Not to mention the money saved in the criminal justice system.

Would these taxes be earmarked for use in drug related health services.

Or would the non-drug using tax payers have to subsidise what is essentially someone elses pleasure ?

Are taxes from alcohol and tobacco ring fenced? The costs to polcing, health care etc should go down, not up, due to users having a reliable and known source. Would be a bit daft to ring fence taxation on this issue, especially if the proceeds far outweighed the costs.

Would the thriving criminal drug suppliers really give up their lucrative businesses overnight and get a job, handover the range rover sports etc.

Who knows? Maybe they’ll take the opportunity to go legit? If I was selling drugs now and had the opportunity to keep doing it without the risk of a hefty jail sentence, I’d be pretty keen.

Surely th purpose of any internet discussion is for individuals to be able to counter one anothers arguments with what you describe as critical thinking, I havent read your posted article because I prefer to counter any argument you Grum can put forward without the need to copy and paste a received view. opinion or theory.

cheekyboy – Member

As much as Gove worries me (I’m a teacher), fair play to him for sending his daughter to a state comprehensive (albeit a C of E selective one).

Before you start praising that twerp, may I suggest a bit of background research !

Mmmmmmmm!!!!!!!!!

cheekyboy – Member

So you agree that we would need to establish a government run department/departments to do all of this?

They already exist.

Once this is all up and running would the costs of this be met by the revenue taken in by the drug taxation, I can only assume you have checked the figures/financial model?

You are aware that products are generally sold at profit?
It may surprise you that the NHS makes a net profit of £9-13,000,000,000 a year due to smoking. Smoking is more costly than recreational drugs.

Would these taxes be earmarked for use in drug related health services.

No, because there would be a surplus.

Or would the non-drug using tax payers have to subsidise what is essentially someone elses pleasure?

No, as reasoned above.

Would the govt approved drugs meet the needs of the hardened drug user, would he be prepared to pay the new tax or would he just keep usng his old criminal supplier?

This is just another example of how you really haven’t thought things through and have no understanding of the matter. I could explain, but really?

The transition period from criminal supply to govt approved supply, how exactly would that work?

It’s very simple.
One weekend, the drug user hangs around the back of a dodgy pub, waiting for someone to possibly turn up with a substance that may or may not be what he wants, and may or may not be harmful.

Next weekend, the drug user pops into the chemist, buys some MDMA, has a really great time, hurts no-one and boosts the economy.

Would the thriving criminal drug suppliers really give up their lucrative businesses overnight and get a job, handover the range rover sports etc.

The majority of drug users would prefer to buy from a legitimate source, provide it and the criminal business would no longer be lucrative.

e ?

Yes please, but without that superfluous **** space, if you don’t mind.

Well I have finally received a few answers, although poor old Junkyard has become too fatigued to continue.

I remain unconvinced that drug legalisation is a worthwhile thing to society as awhole or the individual.

I also see no worthwhile benefit from self-stupefaction.

So please excuse me I`m of off to ride my bike on the magic mountain 😀

good idea, make up a political party with that as the main driver and see how many votes you get.

I briefly met Prof Nutt last week. He blamed politicians for the mess that is drugs policy. A nearby politician blamed old people for voting (i) more than young people and (ii) against drugs, on the whole.

So please excuse me I`m of off to ride my bike on the magic mountain

Enjoy your flounce 😉

I briefly met Prof Nutt last week. He blamed politicians for the mess that is drugs policy. A nearby politician blamed old people for voting (i) more than young people and (ii) against drugs, on the whole.

I suspect it’ll take a fairly large shift in the political landscape before this sort of policy ever makes it into the statue books. It will need people who are youngish now to become older and start getting involved. As along as there are lots of older generations entrenched in their views then nothing will change and it would be political suicide to attempt it.

I remain unconvinced that drug legalisation is a worthwhile thing to society as awhole or the individual.

Then quite frankly, you’re an idiot.

Every example of prohibition in history is proof of this.

Careful on your bike; it’s easy to have an accident when you have your eyes shut tight to the world.

cheekyboy – Member

poor old Junkyard has become too fatigued to continue.

I can assure you he hasn’t, when they shut the internet down the last post will be JY responding to a thousand page thread, we all salute his indefatiguability. If he’s stopped talking it’s because your posts have, incredibly, become beneath his contempt. I didn’t think that was possible, congratulations.

“Harm caused by drugs” chart.

What a **** joke.

Pinched the graphic from the first page because it’s been used to demonstrate that our current drug laws aren’t right – the balance of legality and harm are wrong.

It’s being used to support a possible argument for looking into the decriminalisation of some drugs. If this argument applies, then it certainly supports an alternative argument for stronger prohibition of alcohol.
Earlier, someone put forwards the idea that prohibition doesn’t work. From the graphic, it looks like legalisation is the thing that doesn’t work.

It’s very simple.
Before the “war on drugs” started, drugs weren’t really a big problem.

Alcohol is for sale where ever we walk, where ever we shop, where ever we eat, where ever we dance, where ever we watch a film, where ever we stop for petrol. Hence why its top of that skewered chart. Everywhere = more affected by it/using it.

Its a right of passage to try and drink alcohol.

I can’t remember the last time I was offered Skunk or weed etc.

Skunk, psychosis and mental illness. Hmmm. Theres one thing I really wouldn’t want to become socially acceptable.

Everyone who takes drugs seems to think it makes them interesting, different and funny. Its a **** game.

Yes alcohol is bad. BAD. However why add another product available everywhere in the same places as another product to **** a wider audiences life up even more?

Leave it as it is. The preserve of teenagers and middle-aged middle-class types who are in denial that they are 18 anymore.

I can assure you he hasn’t, when they shut the internet down the last post will be JY responding to a thousand page thread, we all salute his indefatiguability. If he’s stopped talking it’s because your posts have, incredibly, become beneath his contempt. I didn’t think that was possible, congratulations.

I would like to disagree but I could only do it through my laughter and a lack of self awareness 😉

Chapeau

Everyone who takes drugs seems to think it makes them interesting, different and funny. Its a **** game.

Excellent, we’re now into sweeping stereotypes. The type of statement made by people who don’t have any evidence to back up their claims.

Skunk, psychosis and mental illness. Hmmm. Theres one thing I really wouldn’t want to become socially acceptable.

is smoking socially acceptable these days? No, it’s stigmatised as it’s bad for you. Even if drugs were legalised I doubt they’d become socially acceptable in the long run as they’d be subject to all the education, awareness campaigns and restrictions that are currently applied to smoking.

The preserve of teenagers and middle-aged middle-class types who are in denial that they are 18 anymore.

Yes, lets do that. Continue letting young people be punished by the criminal justice system, possibly ruining their future careers for having some fun when they’re young. Great plan.

middle-aged middle-class types who are in denial that they are 18 anymore.

I thought they just serially swapped midget sized bikes and bragged about their libido 😉

Yes, lets do that. Continue letting young people be punished by the criminal justice system, possibly ruining their future careers for having some fun when they’re young. Great plan.

Correct me if I’m wrong theres no charge etc if you are found with a small amount/personal consumption. Plus if its illegal- its not rocket science is it? You know you dont have to do it. Unless of course you are addicted to it.

Excellent, we’re now into sweeping stereotypes. The type of statement made by people who don’t have any evidence to back up their claims.

Coke is a **** ‘s drug.

Correct me if I’m wrong theres no charge etc if you are found with a small amount/personal consumption

You’re wrong.

Plus if its illegal- its not rocket science is it?

That’s sort of the point, isn’t. Being illegal isn’t stopping people from doing it, so why try? Prohibition doesn’t work.

Coke is a **** ‘s drug.

Thanks for that well reasoned statement.

Correct me if I’m wrong theres no charge etc if you are found with a small amount/personal consumption. Plus if its illegal- its not rocket science is it? You know you dont have to do it. Unless of course you are addicted to it.

Charge is to the discretion of the Procurator fiscal, varies widly from area to area, And yeah you’re very right…I don’t have to do it…but altered states are bloody good fun and often very affirming/rewarding not to mention that for our entire existence as a species we have been experimenting with substances to aid the changing of our perception. It is our current societal treatment of so called drugs and drug users that are the underlying problem, not the drugs themselves, perhaps we also need to take a step back from the issue and examine how our society has evolved over the past 50 years at such a rapid technological and wealth led pace but at the expense of a true and genuine social inclusion model that seems to be discussed as an afterthought.

Perhaps it would help you understand the current legalisation issue and why our current model of drug legalisation is flawed if you read some of the many Social and Anthropological/Ethnobotanical studies that have been published with regard to historical use of plants and substances to induce altered states, many are online and if you genuinely wish to broaden your understanding of the issues then there is hope for the rest of us who do not hold your polarised view of the world.

I could give incidental information on deaths of most drug but it’s incidental so no use what so ever, sorry DazH but that’s all your providing and secondhand too.

Err, that was sort of my point. Anecdotal evidence works both ways, which is why I was saying it shouldn’t be used to formulate policy. It’s heartening to see that this thread has supported my original point though. Most people these days do seem to support legalisation in some form (I rarely meet anyone who doesn’t!), and those who don’t tend to be the irrational, reactionary and wilfully ignorant types who can’t accept that they might be wrong. Hopefully it’s only a matter of time before the world sees sense.

And for those asking how it could be done, have a look at Uruguay: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/22/uruguay-legal-cannabis-1-dollar-gram

And for those asking how it could be done, have a look at Uruguay:

No, Uruguay!

Won’t happen here. With THC spray selling at £150 a pop there is just too much money to lose.
Very sad for those that could get almost free pain relief but are denied due to legislation and cost.

Thanks for that well reasoned statement.

Shrugs, it is.

People harp on about crime etc yet happily take and ingest drugs grown on murder and misery from the start to our shores.

Now you’ll counter me saying ‘yeah but if we legalise it we can legalise the supply chain’. Maybe weed but Coke never will be legal.

So people will still love getting off their faces whinging about being burgled etc yet people in foreign countries are being shot etc etc in the process of growing narcotics.

Here – weed growers/sellers aren’t exactly nice folk but it’ll never be legalised here so those people who see themselves as good citizens put money into non-taxpaying, benefit-loving scumbags.

Abit of generalisation but hey.

And people say doing drugs afect your ability to think coherently and make well reasoned points

It just needed more rANDom CapS L0Cks for the full effect

Yeah thats right. So your saying its ok to turn a blind-eye then?

People who live civilised lives but like the ‘edgy-stuff’ turn a blindeye to the crime behind their recreational drugs.

Hypocrisy?

civilised lives

What’s that then? Sitting on the verandah sipping red wine in your smoking jacket?

It’s probably going to never happen, but if a shed load of countries did legalise cocaine then the process of making the stuff wouldn’t be as deadly and immoral as it currently is. That’s almost definitely a pipe dream though.

Its probably best to not going down the line of accusing people of being hypocrites though. The number of people who’ll walk around wearing clothing from sweatshops or using electronics that have been made in appalling conditions wouldn’t have a leg to stand on.

Here – weed growers/sellers aren’t exactly nice folk but it’ll never be legalised here so those people who see themselves as good citizens put money into non-taxpaying, benefit-loving scumbags.

You should probably stop now Hora, you’re just showing up your prejudices as well as your lack of forward thinking.

turn a blindeye to the crime behind their recreational drugs.

Hypocrisy?

I am sure many users would be delighted to buy organic fair traded drugs – could you suggest a supply route currently?

It is obvious the only way to make it nice[r] is to legalise it.

PS you really could do with chillin 8)

you really could do with chillin

An illegally procured-Hooker might help 😆

I’m confused.. I haven’t really taken any illegal drugs for years and years now, bar the occasional drunken line at a festival or a sneaky toke on a spliff at a gig.. I certainly haven’t bought any drugs in over a decade..

I do however enjoy munching pharmaceuticals like smarties, especially benzodiazepine tranquilizers.. Do we have any opinions on this behaviour?

Do we have any opinions on this behaviour?

Everything in moderation, young yunki.

(Including moderation, to finish the quote.)

I do however enjoy munching pharmaceuticals like smarties, especially benzodiazepine tranquilizers.. Do we have any opinions on this behaviour?

It’s just grown-up drug taking. Whenever I go to visit the folks, I can’t leave without first raiding my mum’s drawer full of prescription painkillers that she has been given for various ailments (she never takes them BTW, before I get accused of causing any suffering).