Drugs!

The worldwide misery and destruction is largely caused by the fact that drugs are illegal. Did you read the article I posted the link to? The one that was full of actual evidence from proper studies and the opinions of experts (including senior law enforcement officials)?

No I bet you couldn’t arsed – because…. well…. drugs are bad aren’t they.

Could you please try and apply a tiny smidgeon of critical thinking to your opinions?

Surely th purpose of any internet discussion is for individuals to be able to counter one anothers arguments with what you describe as critical thinking, I havent read your posted article because I prefer to counter any argument you Grum can put forward without the need to copy and paste a received view. opinion or theory.

My view is quite simple !

Concisely :-

There are no societal benefits of personal recreational drug use therefore why should a society indulge those who wish to pursue selfish acts which benefit no-one apart from a temporary, short and synthetic happiness ?

I havent read your posted article because I prefer to counter any argument you Grum can put forward without the need to copy and paste a received view. opinion or theory.

Oh I see – you’re not interested in evidence, or reason – or the best possible outcome for the largest amount of people.

Marvellous.

My view is quite simple !

Yes. Yes it is.

How can you present it as your argument ?

How do you Mr Grum know its true ?

All Im doing is asking you to present your own view !

My view on this question?

There are no societal benefits of personal recreational drug use therefore why should a society indulge those who wish to pursue selfish acts which benefit no-one apart from a temporary, short and synthetic happiness ?

It’s a stupid question which ignores reality and is heavily loaded with your own biases and prejudices.

How do you Mr Grum know its true ?

Know what is true? I don’t ‘know’ anything is true, but I’ve looked at least some of the evidence – something you don’t seem to feel is necessary.

There are no societal benefits of personal recreational drug use therefore why should a society indulge those who wish to pursue selfish acts which benefit no-one apart from a temporary, short and synthetic happiness ?

On that basis they should ban mountain biking too, and any other hobby or leisure pursuit which has no wider benefit to society. Have you considered emigrating to North Korea? You might like it there.

Like I said earlier, abstinence is an abomination in the eyes of creation, I think my point has been illustrated colourfully here

How can you present it as your argument ?

How can you form any opinions that are the slightest bit insightful or valid in the real world without reading around the subject in question and forming your own views based on those. In this case, most of us have formed opinions based on personal experience and the thoughts and experiences of experts. Our views match theirs broadly speaking.

Surely th purpose of any internet discussion is for individuals to be able to counter one anothers arguments with what you describe as critical thinking, I havent read your posted article because I prefer to counter any argument you Grum can put forward without the need to copy and paste a received view. opinion or theory.

It is indeed, but like any debate opinions formed with no or little knowledge of an area with no facts, evidence or other supporting opinion to back it up aren’t worth much. I believe this because that’s what I believe isnt going to convince anyone.

There are no societal benefits of personal recreational drug use

There would be massive benefits if it was legalised, which was my point in the first place, although typically for STW the argument has strayed (via one-on-one arguments and the like) away from that. Somewhat.

yunki – Member

Like I said earlier, abstinence is an abomination in the eyes of creation, I think my point has been illustrated colourfully here

That’s too heavy that ^^^ “abstinence is an abomination …”

Could you elaborate because it really is difficult to understand. Keep it simple.

I think we miss the point completely.

To sum it up: Legalised drugs => natural culling of zombies maggots (self-inflicted harm) or an excuse to cull (when society has given up on them because they push others to their limits).

Compassion is reserved for those that deserve compassion and those people who are genuinely kind. Drugs addicts (illegal type)/ users? Hhhmmm … nope. Not on the list.

Care to deal with my central point, or do we need to hear more about your weevil obsession?

The issue with any drugs is the ability of self control, how it’s supplied and the levels it’s supplied at. Alcohol causes many issue I see a lot of effects of alcohol but of course I will it’s readily available legally, you can brew your own and available illegally too. The data you see for figures where alcohol is was involved from healthcare in an incident isn’t a great source. If a person has had half a lager it’s recorded as having alcohol and gets marked down as alcohol involved that’s all it shows, not if it contributed or not but gets marked as a statistic.

If heroine was as easy to get hold of and as social acceptable the figures probably would be very similar to alcohol. Both are unpleasant drugs that have consequences when not used responsibly. I’m not sure legalising them will make it any better, the Colorado data is far too earlier to tell on any long term effects.

I could give incidental information on deaths of most drug but it’s incidental so no use what so ever, sorry DazH but that’s all your providing and secondhand too. None of them are them are nice to deal with, alcoholism is an awful thing it’s terrible how it effects individuals and families. Class A deaths are horrible too there’s longterm uses who seem to get few issues until one day they get it wrong but have serious health problems and then there’s new users who’ve only tried a few times then it goes seriously wrong.

What ever the drug of choice an addiction effects the individual, their families, friends, society and their employers. Do we really need to try and monitor another drug when alcohol and tobacco cause enough issues. Yes we might need to look at how it’s controlled but I’m not sure legalising it is the answer.

There are no societal benefits of personal recreational drug use therefore why should a society indulge those who wish to pursue selfish acts which benefit no-one apart from a temporary, short and synthetic happiness ?

War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength

cheekyboy – You are bundle of laughs.

Shall be ban the growing of flowers in gardens and insist the land is only used for growing food?

Mr Woppit – Member

Care to deal with my central point, or do we need to hear more about your weevil obsession?

😆 => “weevil” They are cute.

Simple:

1. Legalised drugs
– can you control drugs when there is danger of over consumption?
– side effect that society needs to deal with can you deal with it?
– where is the boundary between personal consumption and the wider society? i.e. where do you stop from affecting others?

2. Not to legalise drugs.
– underworld still control it but at least it’s only confine to minority of users in the grand scheme of things.
– the penalty that goes with it etc …

gobuchul – Member

War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength

^^^ heavy stuff that.
Did you nick it from Bertrand Russell?

The country already accommodates alcohol and nicotene use. This is the current status quo. Why should it be any different for a legalised range of other, currently illegal, drugs?

where is the boundary between personal consumption and the wider society? i.e. where do you stop from affecting others?

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.

So far, the Colorado experience with one particular type of drug that, we have been told, will ruin your life and destroy society, is that neither of these things has pertained. $20 million has been raised in local tax revenue. I do not know what effect it has had on criminal involvement but I am willing to bet that they have rapidly become disinterested in the product.

What exactly is your point?

War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength

^^^ heavy stuff that.
Did you nick it from Bertrand Russell?

Oh dear.

Mr Woppit – Member
What exactly is your point?

Consume whatever you like as that is individual freedom which I agree but the problem is that the side effects always ended up with burden to wider society.

Yes, tobacco or alcohol are dangerous/harmful but do you need to add to that burden?

🙄

Mr Woppit – Member

War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength

^^^ heavy stuff that.
Did you nick it from Bertrand Russell?

Oh dear.

G. Orwell. 😆 OKay, they all say similar things in a twisted ways. Bunch of western “philosophers”.

Consume whatever you like as that is individual freedom which I agree

Yes, tobacco or alcohol are dangerous/harmful but do you need to add to that burden?

OKay, they all say similar things in a twisted ways.

I think I may be losing the will to live.

Mr Woppit – Member

I think I may be losing the will to live.

😆

You cannot have it all and I favour culling.

Yes, imagine all those MPs hook on crack if it is legalised. I mean they are already bunch of zombies even without addiction.

Oh ya … China can always supply the “goods” just like opium was once supplied to them in the past.

Simple:

1. Legalised drugs
– can you control drugs when there is danger of over consumption?
– side effect that society needs to deal with can you deal with it?
– where is the boundary between personal consumption and the wider society? i.e. where do you stop from affecting others?

2. Not to legalise drugs.
– underworld still control it but at least it’s only confine to minority of users in the grand scheme of things.
– the penalty that goes with it etc …

Imo, provided appropriate licensing and restrictions of quality etc safe limits etc will be better known. There should also be harm reduction due to the fact there’s no longer a stigma and illegality attached. Friends etc should be much more willing to call an ambulance be honest about drug consumption if they were legal. Of course you can never mitigate risk entirely.

As for risk to society, we already have laws on alcohol consumption and what you can and can’t do when under the influence. Wouldn’t take much to extend these laws. Harsh penalties for crimes commit while using might work as a deterrent as well.

Yes, tobacco or alcohol are dangerous/harmful but do you need to add to that burden?

I’d look at the overall effect. It’s similar to helmet compulsion, where the effect on the individual is outweighed by the benefit to overall health.

In this case, although there would probably be an increase in usage amongst those that wise to partake, the benefits will be seen in other areas. High tax take, less people in prison for drug offences, better drug education and most importantly take the supply of a substances there if obviously a demand for out of the hands of criminals.

It’s a stupid question which ignores reality and is heavily loaded with your own biases and prejudices.

It was not a question it was a statement, you are correct i am totally prejudiced against illegal drug use.
In my reality i have yet to encounter anyone who has used drugs and has encountered the highs and the lows and come through the other side and can honestly say they really enjoyed themselves and that it was beneficial to them or society.

I am 48 i have lost 3 friends 2 to the drink and one to the drugs, all three cut off in their prime because of selfish stupidity, 3 families greatly bereaved.

What has mtbing got to do with drug legalisation ? its a poor analogy you really need to learn to think.

? its a poor analogy you really need to learn to think.

Ironic coming from you who is apparently basing their entire view point on personal experience. It’s fair enough in some sense but misses the bigger picture entirely.

If I was to play the same game I’ve lost 1 friend to outdoor activities gone wrong and none to drugs. So does that mean we should ban mountaineering? No, of course not. All activities carry a risk and we should do our best as individuals and as a society to manage them and deal with the consequences.

Keeping illegal drugs illegal doesn’t deal with any of the problems they currently cause, where as legalising them would sort out a huge dose of them. It may bring others but from what I can see the effect to society on the whole would be a gain, not a loss.

There are no societal benefits of personal recreational drug use therefore why should a society indulge those who wish to pursue selfish acts which benefit no-one apart from a temporary, short and synthetic happiness ?

cheekyboy – I’m sorry about your friends.

However your statement that I quoted above is quite strange. You seem to be suggesting that unless an activity has “worth” then it should not be done.

I don’t think anyone here has suggesting that over indulgence in narcotics, legal or otherwise, is a good thing. The crux of the legalise and control argument is that people will always take drugs, so why not ensure this does not become a revenue source for organised crime by supplying better quality, cheaper and taxed drugs? This would also greatly reduce petty crime and burglary, the vast majority of which is performed to fund drug use.

What is “synthetic” happiness? I have had some very genuinely happy times which involved alcohol!

I am 48 i have lost 3 friends 2 to the drink and one to the drugs, all three cut off in their prime because of selfish stupidity

Selfish stupidity? How compassionate.

cheekyboy – Member

My view is quite simple !

Concisely :-

There are no societal benefits of personal recreational drug use

Thousands of great artists of all genres have found inspiration through drug use, as have many scientists and great thinkers of the world.

I wish there was an image I could post of a million Patrick Stewart facepalm’s.

What has mtbing got to do with drug legalisation ? its a poor analogy you really need to learn to think.

It’s a perfectly valid analogy. Doing things for fun is about lighting up those little pleasure neurons in the brain; whether that be hurtling down a hill on a bike, chasing a fox across a field on a horse, playing tetris, or laughing your ass off on 2CB.

Do we really need to try and monitor another drug when alcohol and tobacco cause enough issues.

I think we can all agree drug use is causing some issues so the more pertinent questions is how can we best redress this, control this or influence it. I dont think that is best achieved by prohibition personally as this just exacerbates many of the problems

Ok then, lets legalise recreational drug use , where do we start from ? How do we regulate, who do we consult with, how do we control the logistics of supply.
Do people really believe we could develop and implement a workable system, without disruption to the existing infrastructure, it would take international co- operation on a huge and unworkable scale a bit like the pipe dream that one day we will live on another planet.
Its a totally absurd and unworkable idea, the state would have to dismiss all previous criminality before it could properly engage in regulating the supply from the previous gangs who had control, an amnesty on murder and absolute villainy, if thats what you want then I pity you.

Do people really believe we could develop and implement a workable system, without disruption to the existing infrastructure

What are you talking about?
It’s selling a consumable product, it’s nothing new or difficult.

the state would have to dismiss all previous criminality before it could properly engage in regulating the supply from the previous gangs who had control

WTF! 😯
Why would we be dealing with the criminals?

If you’re not already on drugs, then definitely give them a go.

unworkable scale a bit like the pipe dream that one day we will live on another planet.

WTF are you talking about? Yeah it’s as complex as interplanetary travel. 🙄

Most drugs used for recreation are also used for medical purposes, cocaine, heroine etc so the supply of these is not too difficult.

Most drugs used for recreation are also used for medical purposes, cocaine, heroine etc so the supply of these is not too difficult.

ok then !

If drugs became legal tomorrow how would it be effectively regulated, supplied and taxed to ensure the taxed revenue would be sufficient to cope with the utter chaos it would create !

I don`t know how it could be done, maybe you could enlighten me.

I don`t know how it could be done, maybe you could enlighten me.

Like it is with fags.
There you go, easy.

the utter chaos it would create

Your sensationalist fantasy, not fact.

I suspect that those who think recreational drugs should be legalised are not suggesting that we just legalise them overnight. Obviously a number of frameworks would need to be set up first – supply chain, distribution, monitoring, support etc. etc. Some of these are already in place, although perhaps on a smaller scale, such as the availability of most of these drugs for medical purposes.

So yes, if you could magically revoke the current laws overnight and make everything legal from tomorrow, then there would be chaos. But that’s quite clearly not what anyone (sensible) is suggesting.

There’s no reason why, given time to get the right mechanisms in place, this can’t happen.

I suspect that those who think recreational drugs should be legalised

The point I am trying to make is the inability of those people to actually think !

Most of what comes out of their mouths is regurgitated drivel, its what we hear when people venture near russell brand with a microphone.

cheekyboy – Member

The point I am trying to make is the inability of those people to actually think!

Isn’t that exactly what you are demonstrating?
That and a total absence of imagination?

I’ll try and make it easier:

Alcohol is a drug.
Cannabis is a drug.

Can you imagine life where alcohol is regulated, taxed, not run by pardoned criminals (a ludicrous suggestion), et cetera?

Yes?
It should be easy… 😉

Now why is cannabis so different?

The point I am trying to make is the inability of those people to actually think !

How exactly do you think you are doing this. The most far fetched fantastical nonsense has come from you.
Legalising drugs is not in any way shape or form

a bit like the pipe dream that one day we will live on another planet.

Far out Dude far out.

The point I am trying to make is the inability of those people to actually think !

Most of what comes out of their mouths is regurgitated drivel, its what we hear when people venture near russell brand with a microphone.

Or, you know, that’s what we are doing. Based on our own prejudices, experiences, expert opinion and some science we’ve come to our own conclusions which happen to be the same as some of the experts?

As far as I can see you’re the only one not doing any thinking are are regurgitating the same old shite we see in the Daily Mail.

As far as I can see you’re the only one not doing any thinking are are regurgitating the same old shite we see in the Daily Mail

I have asked two very simple questions

1/ What are the benefits to society that would justify the legalisation of drugs that are currently illegal ?

2/ If legalised how would the supply, quality control, taxation etc be regulated and administered.

I have not yet received one coherent response to these two simple questions.

Judging by some of the remarks I have received I have obviously upset some people, this may be because the received view they hold on most drug related matters cannot be realistically defended.

cheekyboy – those two questions have already been answered multiple times. If you can’t be bothered to read/understand the replies or read any of the compelling evidence it’s only you that’s being made to look stupid.

Judging by some of the remarks I have received I have obviously upset some people, this may be because the received view they hold on most drug related matters cannot be realistically defended.

No, it’s because you’re being wilfully ignorant – while expressing strong opinions that are nothing other than prejudices. Please try reading the article I posted a link to – it’s full of actual evidence. What are you afraid of?