[Closed] Does this look like a crack to you?

Double bugger!

Looks like 2 now

Oof, not cool 🙁

Looks cracked to me... 😥

Yikes. That's awful.

Word of warning - it's not [b]always [/b]your bottom bracket making an awful "shearing titanium creaking" sound when you pedal.
Sometimes it's other things..

DrP

It's the shame of being put away without being cleaned.

I'd check that Chromag too.

Structural mud innit...

DrP

That'll buff out

Is that 2 Tripsters you've broken?
Have you been wearing a fox hoody?

a good reason to never buy titanium.

owned 2 ti frames in the past, both cracked within a year of purchase.

Ouch, that's crap 🙁

Do Ti bikes have a higher failure rate than other materials? Everyone I know that's had one (of various brands), it's snapped (confirmation bias?).

I thought Ti was supposed to be really strong? Hence using it to make spaceships and other cutting edge stuff?

[i]I thought Ti was supposed to be really strong?[/i]

depends how you use it....

Oooof, that's not good. Brilliant repair, you should patent that!

Presumably it can be replaced under warranty? Still a pain though

Do Ti bikes have a higher failure rate than other materials? Everyone I know that's had one (of various brands), it's snapped (confirmation bias?).

Do Ti bikes have a higher failure rate than other materials?

in 30 some years I have never snapped or cracked a steel frame.
so I would say yes for me.

Nasty. It's threads like this which put me off buying a Ti bike/frame*. I have no idea if Ti is more susceptible to cracking like this, than other materials, but Ti frames tend to cost a bit more, so you want to have the reassurance it'll be good.

"a good reason to never buy titanium."

You'd better tell the entire space/aerospace industry then, they use quite a lot of the stuff...

*I'm sure Ti is a perfectly good material, I'm more concerned with the quality of materials and manufacture involved in making bicycle frames. There's probably a world of difference between the manufacture of safety critical aerospace components, and bicycle frames.

Surprise not, titanium cracking who'd have thought.

Titanium is hard to weld and prone to fatigue failures.

"Titanium is ... prone to fatigue failures."

Blimey. I hope nobody makes springs out of the stuff then. 😯

That is not repaired, I can see neither gaffer tape nor zip ties.

White tape with blue barrel adjusters? 🙄
Standards DrP, standards are slipping.

Is that 2 Tripsters you've broken?

Nope..this is the first.

It was a scandal frame I broke last time.

and a commencal meta before that.

So Alu 2 : Ti 1 at half time....

DrP

Jubilee Clip ftw, Shirley?

Do Ti bikes have a higher failure rate than other materials?

I suspect people are more likely to post about a failure as it tends to be costlier and less expected.

People tend to talk about Ti as 'a bike for life' because it is corrosion resistant and is pretty resilient and will generally take the rest of their life to pay for it!. However as well as 'ever-lasting' people also expect a Ti bike to be light. I expect cracks are more a result of building down to a low weight than any particular fatigue-prone quality if the metal itself. But if a Ti bike was built primarily to be strong and as a result weighed almost as much as steel one then nobody would pay the 10x extra to buy one.

Do Ti bikes have a higher failure rate than other materials? Everyone I know that's had one (of various brands), it's snapped (confirmation bias?).

as a former professional metallurgist and a bit of a Ti fanboi, I'd say yes. I reckon Ti has the highest failure rate of any material used in frames. It might not corrode, and have a (pseudo) infinite fatigue life but it is so prone to oxygen contamination in welding that those benefits are moot.

I was idly looking at a Tripster frame as my insurance pay-out N+1, but my general thoughts around Ti, Kinesis' short warranty and the fact Tripsters are failing kiboshed that. Half price Niner RLT Steel, hmmmm

I design my own titanium frames and have them built in China - between my current three and a number for mates, none have yet broken. Having had 30+ years of fabrication and ti experience. Having seen countless broken frames, particularly branded ones, my design philosophy is keep it simple, strong and avoid big changes in material section. This means cowled not plate drop-outs and non-shaped headtubes as these are the most stress-prone areas. Machined and tapered headtubes might look good, but they're heavier and more expensive than a 50mm OD/44mm ID piece of tubing that provides a nice even shape to weld to.

just finished servicing an Enigma Ti road bike for a customer

this is his second frame (first lasted a year), the first developed a crack all around the down tube / head tube weld, which the customer was convinced was a creaking BB, until I pointed it out

despite my concern, he rode home on it 🙁

despite my concern, he rode home on it

I had the second half of my CX ride to finish on the above crack!
Needless to say, it was completed with less gusto than the first half...!

DrP

"a good reason to never buy titanium."

You'd better tell the entire space/aerospace industry then, they use quite a lot of the stuff...

but reading through this post, we can safely say that my opening comment was correct, for a 20 stone bike rider commenting on Ti bikes failing.

It's a sticker, you can see much more clearly in the 2nd photo.

The only bike I've ever killed was ti, split top and bottom along the nds chainstay.

Do titanium frames get stress relieved after they are welded? Most cracks seam to appear next to the welds. I wonder if the higher temps for welding Ti are causing localised stress points on the frames.

the thing with aerospace and titanium is they are very careful when welding the stuff, [url= http://www.camvaceng.com/electron-beam-welding/industry/aerospace/ ]electron beam welding and vacuum chambers[/url] are common place. IIRC the wing box for the Tornado had to be sent to Grumman in the states to be welded because there wasn't the facility here to do it.

might just be the paint 😉

DrP is about one quarter of ton's weight... So have you contacted the warranty people DrP?

My winter road bike search is now stepping up a level..!

Warranty job, so all OK...
Upgrade will sort it 🙂

DrP

EDIT:

DrP is about one quarter of ton's weight.

I know that 😆

Good about the warranty 🙂 Maybe the creak isn't my saddle... and I fell off last week.... oh gawd...

Just over half, actually

So you weigh just over half a Ton. No wonder it broke 😉

This is like a maths question at school...
[i]
If DrP weighs just over half a ton, and Ton weighs 20 stone, where is DezB's frame cracked??[/i]

DrP

"but reading through this post, we can safely say that my opening comment was correct, for a 20 stone bike rider commenting on Ti bikes failing."

So, a good reason for [i]you[/i] not to buy Ti, but that might not apply to everyone else? I'm sure there are some lightweight steel frame that wouldn't be suitable for you, as well as certain aluminium or carbon fibre ones. Some frames have rider weight limits, no? 20 stone is relatively very very heavy for a person. Did your frames crack because they were flawed, or simply because they weren't designed to cope with your weight (Not meant as a personal dig btw, just that things have limits)?

But yes, there does appear to be a bit of an issue with some Ti manufacturers. Or is it that people are more likely to rant about an expensive Ti frame failing, than a cheap steel or aluminium one?

If DrP weighs just over half a ton, and Ton weighs 20 stone, where is DezB's frame cracked??

DrP

5? I'm pretty sure it's 5.

we do a bit of machining for planes and stuff...

modern steels are pretty strong, with really quite respectable strength-to-weight ratios.

the weight-savings offered by Titanium are often in the bits where you can't hollow them out easily, usually through accessibility issues.

landing gear is a good example: great big lumps of metal, not all of which is easily hollow-able-out-able (actual aerospace terminology right there).

round tubes are already quite well optimised, there isn't any un-stressed metal, so the weight savings aren't as attractive as you might initially suspect.

it seems possible that Ti frames are pushed a little far, with high-strength alloys that may not be *ideal* for welding, in an attempt to squeeze out as much weight-saving as possible.

just my professional [s]opinion[/s] guesswork, before i go home...

What inspection do bike companies do on their welds post welding? I bet they don't do anything like the analysis that industries like the aerospace industry do.

And for everyone who's either broken a Ti frame or is just against them because they can't/won't afford one, my 456Ti is still going strong and in it's 8th year but I broke a carbon FS last year.

Didn't stop me buying another carbon FS and when/if the 456Ti breaks it won't stop me buying another Ti hardtail.

Another here with a bullet proof Ti frame, had it over 10 years, of course I know it was made properly and not like the majority of non us made which seem to be poorly made as cheaply as possible and then charged a premium for!

And as for the "titanium prone to fatigue" 😆 gave me ago of laugh that one 😆

Pfffh another Dr with a Ti frame, obviously all paid too much, more money than sense 😡 😛

(Luckily no one will be able to find my Ti HT as all my bikes are currently hidden under dust)

Wow thats me avoiding a Tripster now. Looks like a Synapse or Supersix.

And as for the "titanium prone to fatigue" gave me ago of laugh that one

Why?

And as for the "titanium prone to fatigue" gave me ago of laugh that one

Why?

Because Ti alloys have very similar fatigue properties to steel with the added bonus of no corrosion under normal condotions so Ti has a close to an infinite fatigue life as you will get, providing you don't exceed its limits

Glad you're sorted Dr P. I know you ride that bike a lot.....
🙂

But I'm another one that wouldn't touch titanium with a barge pole. It's easily the most unreliable bike frame material IME. I've seen more cracked titanium than all the other materials put together. I stick to steel where I can because it's strongest, cheapish and easily repairable. Failing that aluminium is cheap and the big brands that use it a) Know how to get the best out of it by now and b) Have the clout to back it up.

There's some pretty shitty ti fabricators out there, not the smaller guys, but the larger OEM suppliers. There's the well known tale about the pacific rim fab that refuses to purge the frames with argon gas for welding and then looks all surprised when they suffer a 10% failure rate due to weld embrittlement.

I will ride a Ti bike at some point, probably when I'm fifty, fat and overpaid!

(scuttles off to hide the new Picknflick he's currently testing)

[i]If DrP weighs just over half a ton, and Ton weighs 20 stone, where is DezB's frame cracked??[/i]

The only crack on my bike is perched on the saddle.

Although my carbon frame hanging in the garage does have a crack down the seat tube.

So it's a 6.2

Because Ti alloys have very similar fatigue properties to steel with the added bonus of no corrosion under normal condotions so Ti has a close to an infinite fatigue life as you will get, providing you don't exceed its limits

I thought this had been debunked. In that although Ti like steel has limits within which it can undergo an infinite number of stress cycles without failing. In reality no Ti bike is ever designed to or built within these limits as it would be too heavy

This isn't the source for the first time I saw this and actually the one Ti bike does OK here, but its hardly an infinite number of cycles

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/frame_fatigue_test.htm

This is like a maths question at school...

If DrP weighs just over half a ton, and Ton weighs 20 stone, where is DezB's frame cracked??

DrP

cracking humour that........ 😆

That's not the first tripster I've seen crack there either, but they do seem good on the warranty front...

I've got two ti frames that are 8-10 years old. One set up as a rigid hard tail that I've ridden 20,000km on, often with bikepacking kit on. Both lynskeys made for other brands too, they're the ones that are meant to be extra rubbish quality. Fingers crossed for the future then!

Good test that:
Principia RSL 1.460 60 1,895 welded alu 200,000 no failure

Good job Principia's alu frames never fail. Maybe this was just a fault in the paint 🙂
[img] [/img]

In reality no Ti bike is ever designed to or built within these limits as it would be too heavy

If the Tripster had not been so successful and the number of frames built and sold had been substantially lower, then there would have been fewer incidents of cracks being reported.

We do not know is what the failure rate is for Tripster frames (although the comments on [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/tripster-atr-finally-built-up-lush/page/65 ]this page[/url] of the Tripster thread would suggest a low single figure percentage). I guess even if we did have that information, we don't have any data to compare it to for other bikes in this category, e.g. Salsa Warbird, On One Pickenflick etc.

Moreover, the usage of Tripster frames is probably going to be a lot more variable than a standard road bike, and we won't know what number of failures will involve riders pushing the off road performance to the limit and possibly beyond.

It would be very interesting to know what Dom Mason's views of the failures are, since he designed the Tripster while at Kinesis, and is now launching a similar titanium frame, the Bokeh Ti, at Mason Bikes. Interestingly, he is using an Italian framebuilder, whereas I believe the the Tripster frames are made in the Far East (China?) for Kinesis.

Hasn't Wriggles just ridden his Tripster across Canada?

Hasn't Wriggles just ridden his Tripster across Canada?

Fargo...

DrP

Ah, rich beat me to it..

Salsa Fargo from Banff, Alberta, Canada to the Mexico/USA border!

R. E. S. P. E. C. T.

2 pages and no picture of a big hairy bum

[i]Fargo..[/i]

Good job, by the look of it. Lolz

Maybe this was just a fault in the paint

DezB - Member
Hasn't Wriggles just ridden his Tripster across Canada?

Nope I took a Steel Fargo - I didnt trust Titanium over 2700 miles (it ended up being 2950) and the Tripster didnt take wide enough tyres. I met a guy doing it on 40mm tyres and he had broken 5 spokes in Flathead, Canada.

Anyway, back on topic - nice repair DrP. Should last for ever with that 😉

[i]Nope I took a Steel Fargo[/i]

Yes yes we've established that! Just think, 50 more miles... 😉

Coming up to 11 years on my only Ti frame here.

Broken quite a few frame components on ally full sussers, and had 2 chainstays on steel frames crack through corrosion.

...just for balance, like...

(another one who weighs just over half a Ton)

DezB - Member
Nope I took a Steel Fargo

Yes yes we've established that! Just think, 50 more miles...

I know, i know- I'd ticked the box by then and even the 50 miles back from the border was boring enough!

I have a Ti frame that is 25 years old - it used to belong to hairyscary off here who is a much harder rider than me and who breaks bikes just by looking at them and its still perfect.
(Its also the harshest bike I have ever ridden!)

A guy i work with still has two of his old ti team bikes from the mid 90's in service. No cracks, creaks or splits. Yet.

There's a difference between ti frames. I first noted the difference when I bought the first ti 456 frame. It had a lot of 'play' (give/compliance) in it. Not from the material but from designing it to be more cushioned. I said at the time it was noodley and wouldnt last long ..hey preso they started snapping at the rear disc side stay. The push for ti frames to be overly complaint is daft. I'm not saying the tripster was designed to be this way but ti frames ain't suspension and shouldn't try to design in mimic of 'suspension' if that makes sense?

The only frame I've ever seen crack JRA was a Ti Cotic on a 2008(?) forum ride in Swinley forest.

A couple of roadie mates have Ti, it's a sort of ritual most over 50's seem to go for.. ditch the carbon race machine in favour of a custom Ti slightly slacker, yet seemingly more comfortable grin spinner, then stick expensive campy bling on them.

One close mate has had two Seven Ti's I the last two years, first one cracked at the headtube, the second hasn't yet done anything more than eat up the miles. It's been in a couple of bunch wheel touches, one where the carbon fork bust and ended a decent 300k in a day jolly, it's gained battle scars and still hammers out the miles at the weekend.

I think it depends on your builder more than anything.

Oh, and my mate is 112kgs if that's any bearing on Ti (which I doubt)

Well...frame off to Upgrade yesterday afternoon.
I wonder if i'll get V2 back..
It's a shame the warranty is only the REMAINING since original purchase...oh well..
DrP