[Closed] do i really need a full suss??

Yes.

Mine

what you got druidh

I would have thought the 1st question is what type of terrain are you regularly riding over ?

wyre forest and cannock chase mainly!! so nothing to rough!

You don't 'need' one, but you might enjoy it. Try demoing some and see what you think. Something light-ish will do though surely.

A big hit is not really your average full sus, certainly not what you should use for xc use

Coiler would be too much bike IMO. You'd be better off with a 4 or maybe 5 inch travel bike for Cannock & Wyre.

whether or not i need another full suss frame!!

You've akready tried some?

im worried about getting beat up all the time

If you are not getting beat up then don't worry about it.

ive got another mate who tries to do xc on a spesh big hit and hes constantly knacked from pushing it up the hills

So?

ive been in talks with a lad on here about a kona coiler frame but i cant help thinking im making a mistake

What's the worst that happens...you sell it again?

If you WANT it (it's not about need) then give it a go. Keep it a while as it takes a while to acclimatise to the different way of riding.

My first real full susser was a coiler, awsome do anything bike but a bit overkill for most UK stuff but has the flexibility to handle most DH tracks. Here's my old Coiler 🙂

[img] [/img]

I ended up swapping the frame out for a Heckler, I find it a lot more forgiving. Natural progression I suppose.

P.S. Druidh has a Meta 5 that he's looking to sell soonish.

renton, do you want pics still.
i am getting the bike from my mate tomorrow to take pics myself.. ❓

I would have thought the 1st question is what type of terrain are you regularly riding over ?

wrong. FS is unnecessary skill compensation. Think about it - why would you want to make riding easier ? OK, I admit I still have suspension forks, as I still need some skill deficit compensation, but I have just as much fun on my hardtail as I did with my former FS :o)

Thing is, you do this for fun, yes? So 'need' shouldn't really be high up on the list of priorities. You want a full suss? then as long as you can afford it, then go for it...Life's to short for effing about, if you want to do something then do it.

barnes, why do you not use a box brownie???????

You do not, in any meaningful sense, [i]need[/i] a full-sus. If you want one and can afford it, there is no harm. It will have good points and bad points. 🙂

sold my heckler and kept my 456..

prefer the feeling of the trail rather than a dulled sensation that fs gives. im not slower on my ht either.

I, and all of my colleagues guide in the French Alps on hard tails (Orange P7, Rocky Mountain Blizzard, Dialled Bikes Alpine etc). I tend to get lazy on a full suss, just bosh through stuff and not think about it. I can go as quick on my P7 as I could on my FSR and haven't got the risk of the rear shock blowing up/pivots knackering up etc.

It all depends on what your priorities are really, if you've got a bad back or something then it may be necessary but for keeping your mind on the ball and getting the most out of your riding then it's HT all the way

...and you will periodically change your mind and undergo a series of damascene conversions to the one true way. 🙄 🙂

I just bought a Cotic Soul after 6 years of riding a Mk1 Intense Tracer. I was fed up of really good bikers with technical skills on hardtails beating me both up and down the hills. The Cotic fits me really well and has a much lower BB height which has made me more confident on the technical stuff and the shorter wheelbase has made me king of the singletrack. It's really nice not to have the suspension wallow on every tight corner. Full sus will make you lazy and slack off learning the technical skills that your mates sound as if they have. If you want to improve your downhill performance, fit wider bars. The Inbred is a top bike, I'd hang on to it.

barnes, why do you not use a box brownie???????

different things. On FS you [b]have[/b] to go faster to get the same sensation. No legacy camera is going to give me 6 shots a second and 1600 shot capacity :o)

do you want a full sus?

i recently bought a full sus frame and built it up with lots of left over bits, only cost £300 full build.

ridden it a few times and yes it feels like your going faster,
but i feel a little numb riding it (oo-er missus),
i suppose it makes things a lot easier/smoother after years on a hardtail,

ive been finding the last few rides i've choosen my hardtail,
but the speed on the full-sus is great,
just being able to be lairy and get way with it.

try it out you can always move it on if you dont like it

NO - you dont need one is a question of want... i prefer a HT myself but thats down to not wanting to service pivots / shox etc - i like climbing and love the connected feel to the trail and the acceleration you get with a HT (and the red faces of full suss types when you go past them up and more often than not down hill too...:)) get one and see if its for you...

Its not the bike its the rider...

I'd disagree snowpaul, it is partly the bike.
Riding my old 456 with 2.1 tyres - took it steady on the downs
456 with 2.3's - gave it a bit more welly but still not going as fast as I wanted
07 trance with 2.1's - still too steady on the downs
07 trance with 2.3's - amazing fun. more stability in the tyres and the 4" travel really lets me go for it on most descents.

sure the climbing speed isn't there anymore but thats not the fun bit.

I got more tired than I was expecting on afan's W2 riding the 456 and it battered me too much so went for a short travel trail bike. love it. I don't think you really need more than 5" on any trail in the UK minus proper DH trails. 4" will suffice for all trail centre riding i think.

I feel far more confident on my full suss than I do on my hard tail, although I think that may be down to longer travel forks, and slacker geometry. It means that I ride down stuff that I wouldn't on my old bike, which means that I have more fun.

it's a personal thing. Folk mincing down walking trails will feel little benefit from fs. Alps guides will be skilled enough to use hts which are often better on slow techie stuff there. Others will benefit from fs if they are using it to extend their skills, give some margin for error etc.

You do need it if you want it.

No.

if you must get one go for a lightweight shortish travel 4in max bike. I've a mate who rides a spesh fsr and he is quicker then me on my hardtail but that's 'cause he's a better rider than me. He's always been quicker than me no matter what bike he's riding. I feel beat up after blasting round Afan on my hardtail, but that's 'cause I like to go quick and I put loads of effort in - my mate always seems to be fresher after rides than me but that's because he can ride smoother/faster/better using less effort - regardless of what bike he's on.

Kev

I dont know about anyone else but my ridings gone up in leaps and bounds since I started riding a hardtail again, (kept short travel FS for certain rides) but its the hardtail thats making my riding.

Do you really need one? No. Is that a reason not to get one? No.

If you are finding you are particularly battered after long rides, then why not go for something a bit more comfy.
A Coiler though is one extreme to the other. Mate recently bought one to use in Spain instead of his E-120 & while it appeared to be like a rocket on the descents he did struggle on the climbs more than normal. His full build weighed 37lbs.

You should be able to demo one for a full day to get a decent feel of whether you want one or not.

07 trance with 2.1's - still too steady on the downs
07 trance with 2.3's - amazing fun. more stability in the tyres and the 4" travel really lets me go for it on most descents.

0.2 of an inch made that much difference?

A Coiler for Cannock and Wyre forest will be overkill. Be honest with yourself and pick a bike for where you ride, that said theres a little DH at Cannock, is that what your thinking? 🙂

XC on a bighit"

it sounds to me like your in the same boat as me, i was getting battered having moved to somewhere much rockier than i was used to, but didnt want to give up actually having to make an effort to ride.

4" travel takes the edge off, but doesnt make it toooo easy.

also helps on techy climbs!

trance here 🙂 its awesome (though looks a little bland)
if your going frame only, you could pick one up for a few hundred quid.
if you want for a whole bike, i believe they come into the "£1k top value FSers" class, if you go for the lower end ones.

This is STW and a thread about suspension bikes. So just do as your told and buy an Orange Five.

quite 🙄

in answer to the OP: no but if you fancy one get one as there great, but not a coiler (way too much for the midlands XC)

Borrow one and try it, decide for yourself.

A full suss for somewhere like the Chase is OTT but if you want it do it
It certainly won't be quicker.
Having gone the full circle I tend to use a rigid single speed most places these days. Absolutely spot on for the Chase.If you are getting beat up there is something wrong

Thanks for all the replys!!

ive had a few full sussers over the years but always end up going back to a hardtail(always inbreds too)

this time it feels different though?

i just feel more clumsy on my hardtail and sort of batter my way through rough trails , i keep getting pinch flats on the back wheel too.

i m a heavy lad so i find it hard sometimes to throw my weight around too.

my last full suss was a norco fluid i bought from a lad on here and it was perfect but a little small for me.

i think i need somthing like an early trance frame or a fsr stumpy frame.

just somthing to take the edge of the rough stuff.

so am i doing the pics or not ❓

something as short travelled as an anthem would take the edge off and be rocket fast too....

TON yes please!!

i dont suppose you know what shock is on it??

cheers

steve

what's all this 'to take the edge off' lark. i thought suspension was designed to keep you pinned to the ground over the rough stuff. you can still pick your line through big boulder fields on FS so it's not just ploughing through stuff - you just get more options than you have on a short travel HT.

i've just built up a 100mm HT and i love the way that it rides and handle but up in the lakes or the peaks i'll take my big bouncy 6" machine thankyou

i've decided FS is for old people with bad backs 😉

im off to wales in two weeks and we are doing skyline ,whites level and the wall over a log weekend so is this the type of terrain for a full susser or will it be doable on a ht??

All doable on a HT, lots of people do....

I would take my full sus on a trip like that though... not that I got a choice any more 😥

all riding is doable on a hardtail.
just depends how much fun youll have.

personally (peachos) i dont find any massive enjoyment in going somewhere challenging, and then taking a Boat of a bike i just have to steer in the right direction and let a monster squish do all the work.

i think you can either be a: short travel HT/long travel bouncy bike person
or a: short travel bouncy marathon bike, burley HT person.

im the second option.
both provide challenges, both can be fast as sin when in the right mood

well this being my 1st post I might as well upset the applecart, I ride a 6 & 6 full squidge, that I use for trail, 'freeride' the occasional uplift/full body-armour day and general mischievous biking antics.

I have never seen anyone on a hardtail 'embarrass' anyone on a decent full squidger when the trail points downwards. I'm sure there is those out there who can kill it on a hardtail, but it’s certainly something I’ve never seen.

As for the debate about 'keeping it real' and more 'in tune' with the trail and your bike, I have my doubts.

The speed at which I ride my full susser is much faster than the speed at which I ride my HT (of which I also ride regularly, with only 100ml up front) ergo, the speed of riding means that certain reactions (not all) but some, need to be improved as well. this may be down to my preferred terrain of course, but we must also look at the fact that a year ago, although riding my HT as hard as I could (I started on a hardtail) there is no way that I would have been able to experience certain things (Innerleithen matador trail/cwmcarn uplifts) with the same kind of enjoyment that I did on my F.S.

I understand (quite clearly) - there are those who can ride hardtails extremely hard, but lets look at those hardtails in particular, they are extremely strong, burly big tyred heavy set machines, with huge 160/180 forks and a geometry specced for airtime and hucking all over the shop.

There are plenty of full squidgers out there that are designed to be light weight trail xc bikes that would easily show up a burly hardtail if we are going to go down the route of acceleration and ease of climbing, as much as there is vice versa with whippet HT’s and big FS’s

Again the idea of feeling 'planted to the trail' is something that baffles me in regards to riding hardtail. The reason for rear suspension is exactly the same as the front, to absorb bumps, rocks and shocks, and in doing so, keeping the bikes tracking along the trail. This increased % of time the wheels are on the ground equates to better grip, better grip leads to the ability to corner and takes difficult terrain at a much faster speed. I think the best way to look at that is to think of a snakes climbing over a rock, and then compare that to a wooden ruler doing the same.

So looking at a full susser, we see nothing but progression, yet looking at the hardtail; I can see nothing but compromise.

As for the idea of line choosing, if there is no major difference in peoples speed or ability to ride terrain, then this is a non starter surely?

If there was a huge difference in speed I would understand the finesse of perfect line choice, in the same way I would look at the difference between using a rapier and a two handed sword, but as already discussed and proffered by those who ride HT there is really no obvious difference.

There is of course then the issue of maintenance that a rear suspension unit can only add to, as opposed to the maintenance free back end of a hardtail. There are those who know how to maintenance a front fork and ensure its continual upkeep as they ride. But they are in the minority. Even more so are those with aircan rear shocks who regularly maintain it. The majority of us, both FS and HT have very little knowledge of what happens inside a suspension unit. And so any maintenance is done professionally, meaning the time spent maintaining either shock is one and the same, being both as likely to malfunction as the other.

This leaves us lastly with comfort of riding. Something which is only an opinion can only ever be looked at objectively as opposed to factually, but it would seem to me that general consensus is that full suspension is by far and away the more comfortable of the 2 options, translating to me roughly as a further enjoyment to be had. And it leaves us of course begging the question; why purposefully choose to be more uncomfortable?

your missing the point.

Faster: Yes
Better: Maybe, certainly better at the job its designed for
More fun however?: totally personal opinion.
its not alll about the outright speed

If there was a huge difference in speed I would understand the finesse of perfect line choice, but as already discussed and proffered by those who ride HT there is really no obvious difference.

There are those who know how to maintenance a front fork and ensure its continual upkeep as they ride. But they are in the minority. Even more so are those with aircan rear shocks who regularly maintain it. The majority of us, both FS and HT have very little knowledge of what happens inside a suspension unit. And so any maintenance is done professionally, meaning the time spent maintaining either shock is one and the same, being both as likely to malfunction as the other.

disagree!
50% of the fun in owning a bike, for me, is taking it apart and looking after it.
i took great satisfaction in tuning a really simple fork (MXcomp) to fit my riding style by way of varying oil heights, weights, air pressures, etc. simple stuff, not fiddling dials and knobs, but to do it you have to know what each change will do to affect the fork characteristics
i could have sent it off, sure, but wheres the fun in that?

Probably a little too much dissection over this topic.

Try one, if you like it, buy one.

Easy.

There is no such thing as a right and wrang answer on this matter. Pick the bike you like and ride it as hard as you can. Have fun and feel like you are 12 again everytime you go out on it. Hardtail or full suspension - meh.

Just enjoy riding.

Split the difference. Get a FS but buy a hair shirt.

*runs and hides*

50% of the fun in owning a bike, for me, is taking it apart and looking after it.

for me the figure is -33%. My ideal bike would work correctly with no intervention for say 5 years and then have to be returned to the shop for recycling :o)

personally (peachos) i dont find any massive enjoyment in going somewhere challenging, and then taking a Boat of a bike i just have to steer in the right direction and let a monster squish do all the work.

i get what you're saying mate, but it's not really what i put across. i suppose i must be from the 'short travel HT/long travel bouncy bike person' though. i find it very rewarding hooning it through a rock field whilst trying not to slip out everywhere and avoid the rim-wreckers. but i also like finding the smoothest line on my HT, trying my hardest to avoid as much rockyness as possible whilst going as fast as possible.

in fact, i'm going to start a third 'type of rider'. the type of rider who actually just enjoys riding any type of bike. that's me that is 🙂

lol,
its like a STW niche of niches, amongst all the orange 5s, 69ers, rigids steels and "Speccy pitch is the best bike ever"...ers theres an elite of "Just riiiide maaannn"

who seem to fit into the same group as that aetheist bloke, who is SO aetheist, hes religious about it 😀

🙂 but yep i do see what you mean peachos

so, in conclusion we can firmly say:

whatever.

no, we can't put it to bed yet. there's been nowhere near enough indignation or willy waving.

I think we should start a new niche:

The "Whatever" niche 😆

or the anti-niche niche

or the anti-niche niche

I think that would be to niche to be a niche. What is the definition of a niche anyway?

my personal feelings are pretty much the same as most peoples, i just wanted to put in writing some of the things i think when i read stuff already written.

I think most people are of the same ilk;

" u ride bikes too!!? that's awesome..."

[url=

tail ridden nicely IMO[/url]

I'm sure there is those out there who can kill it on a hardtail, but it’s certainly something I’ve never seen.

Twice over the last month i've had advice on how 'I should get a full Susser' and statements like 'I dont know how you manage on a hardtail', from talking to people i've met out riding. This was just harmless chatter, but on both occaisions they rode very very slowly. The last pair I met actually had me concerned that one of them had fallen off they took so long to get to the bottom of the descent.

I dont consider myself a very fast nor good rider, so ended up giving their astonishing slowness some thought; a lot people must be buying 5 inch FS bikes before their ready for them - and get stuck in rut unable touch on the bikes ability. As long as their enjoying themselves so what? but I do get a little miffed receiving bike choice advice from them!

Renton - I dont mean you by the way, you've had a few bikes, so treat yourself another FS, but keep your Hardtail too, you'll miss it otherwise. 🙂

****in ell im nowhere near that good on my ht!!

I have a FS and a hardtail, there are pros and cons with each of them, but it doesn't matter Cu's I have fun on both, It's good to have a choice. I'm completely over biked with them too, but I don't care because they keep me interested which equals me going out ridding more 😀

Thats not me! I'm nowhere that good either! 🙂

i will keep the inbred i think as i like riding it !!
but still going to look out for a full suss frame!!!

I've just built up a 6" FS'er that has the stiffest platform setting on the shock you could wish for, the forks drop to 4.5" (110mm), it weighs 28lb, descends like a demon and climbs better than any bike I've ever owned.

(I'll put my willy away now, but it was in context with the thread)

I've owned rigid, short travel HT, longer travel HT, a 5" FS and now a 6" and give me the FS'ers every time. I get to pick a line, only on the FS it's avoiding lines where you think "shit no, not even on this bike", in comparison to the HT's "best stay away from those pointy rocks". On the occassion that you do end up on the "shit no" line, sometimes the bike surprises you and you get through it. All adds up to a bigger buzz for me.

I'm not that long returned to FS ways.

Its miles comfier (for an old tosser with a bad back) and I'm not so beat up when I get to the bottom. Its also made me a bit less skittish. Course it would be best to get the HT built back up and see how fast you can ride it with the FS gained confidence...

(Mind you it might have been something to so with the Pikes being over pumped on the HT) 😀