disliking your own child?

Just about everything you do in school is rewritten plagiarism. There is almost no scope for original thought. The whole system is based around learning what is already known and being able to reproduce it with good style. Even as an adult when you write up your research for peer review you spend most of your time quoting others (so as to avoid accusations of plagiarism) because your own contribution to pushing the envelope is tiny.

Junior is really good at it (so he’s got a place at Science Po, Paris), that doesn’t mean he’s assimilated, understood and applied everything he’s written. It’s also very abstract, which doesn’t prepare him for dealing with something real such as the world he lives in or his parents – hence my contributions to this and other child-raising threads.

Edit: bring back metalwork, woodwork, needlework and cooking!

But mostly just bring back music – because that does actually develop a child’s creativity.

Creativity needs to be encouraged more Edukator, but I’d argue that in the social sciences you can’t just “wrote learn” a topic and expect to get good marks.

Also – metalwork, woodwork and music can be just as much of a case of “wrote-learning” as any other subject.

OK – will agree to disagree as recent work I read showed understanding of topic and related literature AND original thought. It was the latter that impressed me most of all.

Sorry ton for the deviation!!

Take your point on spoken language Edukator but not on cut and paste – especially given plagarism software. I was in the “its easier these days” camp until recently ie, when I read current essays and dissertations.

This. As an “educator” at uni level I found that the level of work my students produced was streets ahead of what I did at their age.

Well how else would you get good marks, Tom? Learn all there is to know and how to reproduce it in a format that will get good marks.

Music is indeed good for creativity, and has resulted in some heated “debates” about artists’ abilities to create under the influence of various substances. Music brings your kids into contact with a world of drink and drugs so encourage your kids’ musical interests at your peril. Whilst junior has survived (remember the “firm” bit) so far, for some the music scene is just a part of dropping out and ****ing up. One band member describes himself as an anarchist (he does whatever he wants whenever he wants, mainly FA) – his father (in our MTB club) despairs.

Don’t stick a guitar in front of them then, a bloody Violin will do!

I was also talking about the death of decent classroom music and school bands.

Well how else would you get good marks, Tom? Learn all there is to know and how to reproduce it in a format that will get good marks.

No, you have to be able to make connections between different topics and ideas that are not necessarily obvious or even taught by the teacher. I was reading “The Hitler Myth” by Ian Kershaw as basic introductory stuff for my history A-levels, I’d still challenge anyone to use that books ideas in an essay without actually understanding them.

Music brings your kids into contact with a world of drink and drugs so encourage your kids’ musical interests at your peril.

What kind of orchestra do they have at your kids school??! 😆

A slight different perspective on this Ton.

I come from a well to do family, they sent me to a good school and never refused me anything. In my case this was counter productive, I went off to uni with a very generous allowance, car, flat everything you would need.

I started to treat everyone like garbage, treating the family home like a hotel laundry service, driving bans, writing bad cheques for huge sums knowing that Dad would sort it out, basically acting like a self entitled buffoon, safe in the knowledge that the family net would sort out whatever problems arose.

The tough love arrived on the day I came home from Uni after finishing up, Other than the granny flat I had claimed for my own the house was locked up tight.

My Mother left a letter congratulating me for graduating and telling me it was time to stand on my own two feet. She had filled the annexe cupboards with basic food staples.

My father also left a letter, his was a little more stark – basically giving me six months to sort myself out and find somewhere else to live.

I still didn’t get it.

At this point I had never had a job of any sort. So I was amazed when people didn’t seem to want a well qualified, arrogant, posh little **** to work for them.

I still didn’t get it.

I rode my bike a lot, ate basic food, signed on and continued to treat everyone really badly. Six months past, I arrived home to find the locks changed, Mum and dad were in the house but not answering, I could hear my mother crying. By now I had lost most of my friends so ended up sleeping in the car for a couple of nights before someone reluctantly gave me their spare room.

Something clicked.

I took a very junior office job in the next town along saved like crazy and managed to get a bedsit. But my life was in tatters – one friend, no family contact at all, I was ashamed of myself.

A year or so later I left the area entirely, I rarely go back as I still don’t want to run into people from that time in my life, 20 years later I still feel the effects of what I did – I have never been able to fully fix the relationship with my parents, we didn’t talk at all for years.

Tough love was the answer for me (Even though you can argue it was not that tough.) But acting the clown between the ages of 19-24 has shaped my entire adult life.

How could it have been different? I wish we had all kept talking, I wish that there had been another way to break my sense of entitlement, but ultimately I was my own worst enemy. As I have grown older I have realized that Mum and dad did exactly the right thing, I just wish the communication hadn’t broken down totally like it did.

I wrote a song, here are the lyrics, I can’t do a YouTube because I’ve got nasty trigger finger after catching my index in a swimming line:

Why listen to me what would I know
Check on the Net, Google’s your friend *sung with irony/sarcasm*
Yeah we went to school too in my day
But I don’t know shit, don’t smoke it either.

I’ve already forgotten more than you’ve ever learned
And can’t be arsed to argue anymore

You say the system’s crap, I can’t say you’re wrong
It’s unfair you say, yet you’re the privileged son
And all this stuff you have that’s the system and me, and Rage are liberals too!

Get a life your phone is melting your head
Get a drink that’s why your heroes are dead
Get real you can’t spend your whole life in bed.

Etc.

He didn’t appreciate my lyrics but quite liked the melody.

my sympathies to you Ton. i’m not looking forawrd to when my kids grow up…i hope i never have to write a similar post to yours in the future but who knows?
i used to be a youth worker and spent a great deal of time working with young people of a similar age who had the same traits as your daughter…most parents were in a similar position as you…worrying about what they can do…but some quite frankly couldnt give a toss
the fact that you’re worried says something and thats the first step for you
tough love works but you need to balance that with the softly softly approach…but only you can define the boundary between the two.
from what you say she may be going through a phase of trying to identify herself…she’s going from young person to young adult and that transition phase can bring about issues such as this…usually in boys but in girls it can be quite extreme
hopefully it will improve and she will realise the error of her ways…i cant see you as the type to shut the door on her completely but let her get it out of her system but be there as a parent to catch them when they fall…its her life now and she has to learn from her mistakes
you just need to be there to listen/advise and offer emotional support..but not much more

A slight different perspective on this Ton.

…

Tough love was the answer for me (Even though you can argue it was not that tough.) But acting the clown between the ages of 19-24 has shaped my entire adult life.

How could it have been different? I wish we had all kept talking, I wish that there had been another way to break my sense of entitlement, but ultimately I was my own worst enemy. As I have grown older I have realized that Mum and dad did exactly the right thing, I just wish the communication hadn’t broken down totally like it did.

Honestly, this is quite well written, you could do worse than put it in a letter to them.

A few of my friends went off the rails at age 19, I really don’t think it’s that uncommon. The tough love thing has worked for most of my friends, but then none of them went really that far, and plus, they were all surrounded by a good group of friends (possibly the most important thing).

My Sister and I were given equal treatment/love and she turned out as selfish and evil as they come.

She became a solicitor and thus perfect for the job as it is everyones fault expcept hers.

My Parents love her but are always on guard and seldomly talk to her.

The day she left, everyone was happier.

Very hard situation OP. Don’t know how I would cope if at all. I think you have done well to cope for so far.

70’s lot that really gave up on continuing that – a lot of them seem very comfortable and happy with the status quo.

Not this one!