Cause for concern?

What that says Grumm is that the alarmist headlines and so forth are exactly that and not in any way reflective of the Muslim in the street. Much as Northern Ireland was personified in the press as a hot bed of Terrorism for 30 or 40 years, when in fact a few hundred on all sides, perhaps less, had any involvement.

These alarmist articles are propoganda nothing more. They have already succeeded in making the term Sharia Law to be a terrible threat to our Western virginity, all the while overlooking the simple fact that its the oldest legal system in the world, has been around successfully for 1000’s of years, is the basis for much of our own legal system and in the majority of cases the excesses are limited to a few areas where the interpretation is corrupted and taken to extremes.

The argumnents you are putting forward are architypal of those which as I said before start with the phrase “I’m not a racist but….”. (And before the Religion/Racism thing erupts again, could I just ask the simple question Anti-Semitism : Racism or Religious persecution??….. Don’t bother I won’t respond to that point.)

Poxy forum!! Double post

Yes apparently anyone who expresses any concern about any aspect of Islam is a bigot.

Honestly this is exactly the kind of bollocks that plays into the hands of the likes of the BNP etc, as they can use it to claim they are victims of ‘political correctness gone mad’.

Im concerned about any religion that requires frequent devotion, what you should eat, what you should wear etc etc.

Religion shouldnt be about control but about celebration. The control aspect is very much a human trait.

Anti-Semitism : Racism or Religious persecution??….. Don’t bother I won’t respond to that point

Then dont make it.

Muslims have been trying for some time to have their religion above criticism, even apealing to European courts to have criticism of Islam a crime.
Religion is a choice and we are free to criticise that choice just as we may criticise a persons political persuasion. By elevating its status you are trying to place it above analysis.
It is not racism and you should not try to marginalise those who argue against it.

all the while overlooking the simple fact that its the oldest legal system in the world, has been around successfully for 1000’s of years, is the basis for much of our own legal system and in the majority of cases the excesses are limited to a few areas where the interpretation is corrupted and taken to extremes.

Many crude medical practices were the forerunner to the Germ theory of disease. Because one was before the other doesnt make it better. It is widely used (not a “few areas”) to disproportionately penalise women.

The argumnents you are putting forward are architypal of those which as I said before start with the phrase “I’m not a racist but….

So are all aspects of Islam above criticism? Does feeling at all uncomfortable about any aspect of Islam make you a bigot? What a stupid blinkered attitude.

I also don’t like the Catholic Church’s stance on condoms or homosexuality – is that allowed or does that make me a bigot too? Maybe that’s ok because the Daily Mail doesn’t rip on Catholics much?

Yes apparently anyone who expresses any concern about any aspect of Islam is a bigot.

Unfortunately that statement is both very frequently true, and also an often used justification trotted out by racist bigots for their vile filth. (That comment is not aimed at you personally Grumm) Generally its used when folk comment without any knowledge, understanding or acknowledgement of the wider truths, and usually on a VERY narrow spectrum of issues which the vast majority of Muslims find abhorrent, as if they were representative of the whole faith.

You also raise an interesting point in respect of Catholicism. You are right in that respect. But, do you think that might be because bigots don’t see catholicism as some threat to their Aryan maculinity, (given that locally in the UK its largely a white working/middle class religion), rather than that point being some sort of justification for Islamophobia.

Questioning religion is all very well but you seem to be saying that people shouldn’t have the right to practice it. We live in a secular society anyway, and the idea that Islam will somehow slip between the cracks and come to take precedence over this in wider society is ridiculous. Surfer immediately jumped in with comparisons with Iran, which just isn’t valid – it’s controlled by an oppressive regime that mantains its power through fear, and religion is just a convenient peg to hang it on.

Meanwhile, what plays into the hands of the BNP are vague suggestions that we have a massive enemy in our midst who are hell-bent on destroying Western society, such as the ones in the report Grumm cited. I wonder how many people criticising Islam on this thread have met any Muslims or have any day to day interaction with them. Unless you have the sixth form debating society view that everyone religious is suffering from a mental illness, they are normal people just like me and you.

Hurrah for Mr Agreeable!

Quite right and well said. Encapsulates my views very well. Obviously being agreeable is much more persuasive than my rather less than subtle “My Arse!” approach, but hey it takes all sorts to spin a wheel.

Questioning religion is all very well but you seem to be saying that people shouldn’t have the right to practice it.

People shouldn’t have a right to practice it if it involves oppressing people and inciting hatred, eg against gays. It may only be a minority who do so, but does that mean we should just accept it?

such as the ones in the report Grumm cited.

Did you actually read the report? Or the other bits I posted out of it? No didn’t think so

I wonder how many people criticising Islam on this thread have met any Muslims or have any day to day interaction with them.

I have worked with a few Muslims, and one Pakistani student I would say was a friend. What relevance does that have to anything?

People shouldn’t have a right to practice it if it involves oppressing people and inciting hatred, eg against gays. It may only be a minority who do so, but does that mean we should just accept it?

You are taking the Dawkins view that religion can be a tool of oppression and should therefore be suppressed. Spot the irony there. Religions don’t have a monopoly on prejudice or homophobia though and, as I said earlier, if someone’s beliefs start to affect people in a negative way then there are remedies under English law.

Maybe if Muslims worldwide were more outspoken or vocal against about what’s happening in Iran (especially as Islam Sharia law is a convenient peg to hang it on – as you put it) I’d feel less uneasy.

Grumm : The “I work with a few muslims” etc comment is on a par with, “I’m not a racist but”. It seeks to justify the unjustifiable, and again not aimed at you, but it is often used in blatantly racist conversations.

Re your report posting, yes I did and yes I have and thats the foundation for my anger on the matter, it is blatantly flawed and blatantly biased. I have already explained several times over why flawed sources should not be given credence. You seem intent on acknowledging the flaws and then accepting the content, and frankly that does not do you credit.

Regarding the Gays thing, I presume therefore that you will be starting one about both the Catholic church and the C of E which are very blatantly institutionally Homo-phobic, as opposed to Islam where the concept has in fact been embraced (admittedly mainly behind closed doors) for millenium, except by a very limited number of extremists.

Try to remember that Islam encapsualtes as many variations as you can think of religions, including Christianity, which they tend to view as a kind of sub category of Islam, with Jesus being one of their prophets. Its for this reason that the sweeping generalisations are so ridculous and blatantly stupid.

There are shitloads of Muslim critics of the regime in Iran, many of whom are its former citizens.

And quite a few who are very bravely expressing their point of view openly at great personal risk on the streets within that country.

So, Mr Agreeable, just so as I’m genuinely clear on this, you’re saying that contrary to what I heard on Radio 4 yesterday, that anyone changing their faith from Islam under Sharia law won’t get persecuted and that the persecution is actually only the regime in Iran that’s responsible for this?

tyger : If I may, that is arguing the general against the specific. Obviously, given that Islam is one of the most predominate religions in the world, you will always be able to find sects that prove a point one way or the other. There is no point in the question.

Try to grasp the concept that Islam is a coverall term for a huge range of beliefs, some weird, some wacky. Some followers are arseholes, most aren’t.

So whats your point?

anyone changing their faith from Islam under Sharia law won’t get persecuted

Not in the UK, because UK law takes precedence over Sharia law. The House of Lords have made this quite clear:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/oct/23/religion-islam

I’m just trying to understand why (it appears) that Islam seems so intolerant and hostile towards anyone who is considered an infidel or non-Muslim? I take your point that (as you put it) some followers are arseholes and others aren’t but the principles held in Sharia law are the same surely throughout the world?

Grumm : The “I work with a few muslims” etc comment is on a par with, “I’m not a racist but”. It seeks to justify the unjustifiable, and again not aimed at you, but it is often used in blatantly racist conversations.

Except that I was saying it in response to Mr Agreeable suggesting that none of the people criticising Islam knew any Muslims, and I suggested that it was completely irrelevant.

Re your report posting, yes I did and yes I have and thats the foundation for my anger on the matter, it is blatantly flawed and blatantly biased. I have already explained several times over why flawed sources should not be given credence. You seem intent on acknowledging the flaws and then accepting the content, and frankly that does not do you credit.

Even when it says positive things about UK Muslims? I accept that it might be flawed and biased, but that doesn’t mean everything in it is wrong and should be ignored. Perhaps you have some better source of information on the views of British Muslims?

Regarding the Gays thing, I presume therefore that you will be starting one about both the Catholic church and the C of E which are very blatantly institutionally Homo-phobic, as opposed to Islam where the concept has in fact been embraced (admittedly mainly behind closed doors) for millenium, except by a very limited number of extremists.

I already mentioned I don’t like the Catholic Church’s view on gays. I think saying that Islam’s homophobia is limited to a very small number of extremists is very misguided.

What you are failing to realise (again, read the Jason Burke book) is that the most dynamic, fast-growing strain of Islam is a fairly extreme Saudi version of it. It’s difficult to see how this is a good thing, and while they might be a minority, it is a significant one, and growing, thanks to things like the Iraq war radicalising many young Muslims.

Pretending this isn’t happening or that there is nothing wrong with it because you don’t like the Daily Mail is misguided and stupid.

Mr Agreeable – legally yes, but I know of many that have been persecuted with hostility, even from their own families in the UK.

the principles held in Sharia law are the same surely throughout the world?

That might be true in a very general sense but the interpretation and application is much stricter in countries like Saudi Arabia than it is in say, Pakistan.

Meanwhile, you’re still completely ignoring the fact that we’re talking about Sharia in the UK here. As stated above, in the UK it is not binding on anyone unless they want it to be.

I know of many that have been persecuted with hostility, even from their own families in the UK.

Yes but that’s not legally binding is it? In fact under UK law – the one that matters – the persecutors could be prosecuted if they go too far.

As stated above, in the UK it is not binding on anyone unless they want it to be.

That’s an extremely simplistic way of looking at it.

Mr Agreeable – Yes, but of course fear plays a big factor here.

Yes and real life can be an unpleasant business. People are subject to all sorts of pressures from their parents, peer group or the people they worship with. None of these are legally binding on them though. You’re not giving people – or the UK legal system – enough credit here, I think.

fear plays a big factor here

Too right. I have a gay friend whose parents are very religious, dad a vicar etc. Coming out was a very difficult decision for him.

the persecutors could be prosecuted if they go too far.

Shouldn’t any persecution be discouraged/spoken out against? Or would that be bigoted? How far is too far?

Actually, no the principles of Sahria law are not the same throughout the world. They are in fact very different and totally down to local interpretation. Surely that is self evident by the way that even in this country not every Muslim adheres to the same set of rules.

Grumm : Perhaps you have some better source of information on the views of British Muslims?

Clearly I’m not getting my point across, and I honestly don’t know how to make it clearer. Try to think of it like a rope across a ravine. The fact that the rope is only frayed in one place and therefore unlikely to break anywhere else does not automatically make it safe to use that rope. Flawed information is a bit like that. If you know some of it is flawed, you can’t then assume that its safe to use some of it and ignore some. There is clearly an underlying and inherant danger in that assumption.

What you are failing to realise (again, read the Jason Burke book) is that the most dynamic, fast-growing strain of Islam is a fairly extreme Saudi version of it

And what you sir fail to realise is that by giving credance to Denis MacEoins drivel, you are in fact encouraging that growth. Besides, “fast growing strain”…. compared to what precisely? Thats just alarmist crap suggesting in the very words chosen that it is some sort of insidious bacteria about to affect the entire planet. Is it really significant when compared to the estimated 1 – 1.8 billion practising Muslims in the world? I suspect that you will find if you look into it that this extremist sect is exactly that…on the extreme, and in overall terms no more representative of Islam, than the IRA was of Catholocism.

Can’t you see that FFS????

People are subject to all sorts of pressures from their parents, peer group or the people they worship with.

Yes and generally in this country we try to educate people to think for themselves, and try to stop people who exert undue pressure on others – except where religion is concerned it seems.

By suggesting that people should be denied their right to settle a dispute how they choose, you’re not stopping any persecution at all. You’re causing it.

Mr Agreeable – sorry to hear of you friend but somehow I doubt that he’s had to go into hiding for fear of his life – yes, even in the UK. I would hope that his Dad wouldn’t actively make strides to persecute his son.

Yes Tyger because that’s what all Muslims do, as soon as you piss them off they come after you with big pointy knives.

Look at the numbers of people who now wear the burka – almost unknown on our streets probably 10-15 years ago, now pretty common. This is not a normal part of mainstream Islam, it is part of the extremist Saudi brand of Islam.

Of course not everyone who wears a burka is an extremist, but it is part of a general radicalising trend in world Islam – read up on it if you don’t believe me. Experts on all sides including many Muslims say the same thing. But of course you know more, based on, er… what was it again exactly?

Meanwhile, you’re still completely ignoring the fact that we’re talking about Sharia in the UK here. As stated above, in the UK it is not binding on anyone unless they want it to be.

And isn’t it just dandy that there is no such thing as an arranged marriage in the UK, sheeeeeeesh.

Yes and generally in this country we try to educate people to think for themselves, and try to stop people who exert undue pressure on others – except where religion is concerned it seems.

Oh really? What like thinking its a good idea to eat crap and become obese, or to sit on your lardy arse and watch chewing gum for the mind on the box for example? In my experience, threads like this would not have existed in the past, simply because people did think for themselves and were able to think issues through intelligently. Personally, I see precious little of it nowadays. But thats fine, you believe what you like, obviously the educational system at the moment is an absolute shining beacon of excellence in a sea of ignorance.

In the exerting pressure on people department, may I suggest that you read up on Rupert Murdochs influence and the ongoing manipulation of our electoral processes on his part.

really? What like thinking its a good idea to eat crap and becomne obese, or to sit on your lardy arse and watch chewing gumm for the mind on the box for example?

Aye. Its called freedom. Off on a tangent- Not noticed overweight Muslims have we either?

By suggesting that people should be denied their right to settle a dispute how they choose, you’re not stopping any persecution at all. You’re causing it.

Errrrrrm you don’t actually mean that how it came out I hope Mr_A?

Oh really? What like thinking its a good idea to eat crap and become obese, or to sit on your lardy arse and watch chewing gum for the mind on the box for example?

Well there are millions of pounds spent every year trying to educate and encourage people not to eat crap and be inactive. It might not always work. What’s your point exactly?

And yeah, so because Rupert Murdoch controls lots of the press, sharia courts that discriminate against women are ok. Nice logic there – you are sounding increasingly incoherent and silly. 😕

Is it really significant when compared to the estimated 1 – 1.8 billion practising Muslims in the world? I suspect that you will find if you look into it that this extremist sect is exactly that…on the extreme, and in overall terms no more representative of Islam, than the IRA was of Catholocism.

Quite true. However as I understand, the Saudi’s (and by default wahhabi) are behind the current funding of the vast majority of Mosques and Islamic faith schools in this country. So going back to the IRA analogy, although they in no way represent Catholicism, I’d imagine they’d be cause for consternation if it they were discovered funding most of the catholic schools and churches in this country.
Of course, the problem in both cases is how do you successfully reduce the influence of the unsavoury element without alienating the rest.