Ashes 2013

No-one in England really cares about cricket anyway (just following what the Aussies claimed when they were losing all the time – can we assume they care again now? 😉 ).

grum – Member
No-one in England really cares about cricket anyway (just following what the Aussies claimed when they were losing all the time – can we assume they care again now? ).

It certainly seems that way. They also seem to be suffering collective amnesia about the last three series

So moving on, Starting XI for MCG?

Boycott
Vaughan
Strauss
Bell
Prior
Botham
Stokes
Agnew
Tuffers
Broard

This Australian team are a pretty average bunch really. A couple of decent players maybe, the rest are brawlers, alcoholics and chokers.

But, and it’s a big but, they have been ably led and coached by people who have identified weaknesses in the opposition and exploited them.

England of the other hand are just toilet. Self confidence is admirable but it has to be justified. The cracks have been evident for a while now. Poor planning has led to this. No plan B, players who put in repeated poor performances and don’t get dropped and too many **** egos.

That was gifted to the bogans on a plate.
It’s not the start of the some long reigning dynasty for australia, the big bash league will be starting and it’s back to your 6 and out cricket with fireworks and pom-poms to earn $$$$$’s
England will have to regroup and changes needed but not sweeping ones just a reshuffle and a change of attitude, there’s some new talent waiting in the wings that will need to be introduced. Interested to see where they go from here.

@zokes.

Yes I have broken my own taboo. So, seeing as I have fallen into my own trap, can you have a go at blindly defending Pietersen? Go on, just for old times sake.

Your ‘defend the indefensible’ is:

It’s ok to hole out to long on when you should be batting to save the game so long as you are Kevin Pietersen.

Discuss.

Prepare to trot out:

“It’s the way he plays”
“You have to take the rough with the smooth”
“He’s played great innings in the past”
“He’s just misunderstood”

Yawn.

@DannyH

Why Not, it’s a dull boring game that takes 5 days loose even though you know you have lost on day 1. It’s only fair to entertain the poor fans who have traveled a long way to watch the drivel that England are producing. It was up to KP to entertain and make people feel good about Cricket without him the tour would be a complete loss.

SA must be really looking forward to hosting Australia, and to be honest India probably fancy their chances against this shower of an England team even in England.

@dannyh

Calm down, we don’t need a A_A-style borefest on this thread. You made your point. Some of our views differ to yours. Deal with it.

So can I take that as confirmation that you think the manner of his dismissals in this series have been fairly scandalous given the match situations in which they occurred?

There are other players who need to be worried as well as Pietersen, but there are two things that make him especially culpable.

Firstly the manner in which he has given his wicket away suggests absolutely no consideration for the team or the result. This may be accidental (in which case he is a pillock) or more ‘I’m KP and I play how I want’ (in which case he is disruptive pillock.

Secondly he has manoeuvred himself into quite a clever position. To drop him will mean having to indulge in all sorts of media justification. It will also probably prompt an immediate retirement from international cricket (aka a tantrum), thus enabling the media to level a charge of ‘denying the team it’s best player’.

I really don’t need to calm down, I’m quite clear and there is no conflict in me – Pietersen has to go. If he can’t handle that and retires, then so be it.

Nearly all of this current team should be worried, however it think most of them have the humility to accept this and try to rebuild their reputations the correct way. I don’t think Pietersen does.

I really feel for Cook. I hope Flower doesn’t hang him out to dry by making him make all the decisions.

So can I take that as confirmation that you think the manner of his dismissals in this series have been fairly scandalous given the match situations in which they occurred?

No, you can stop trolling for a rise. The manner of some of his dismissals has been scandalous. Others, such as his second innings in Adelaide, were pretty unlucky. Many of the batsmen, Bell included, and Cook especially, got themselves out in stupid ways (though thankfully none quite so farcical as Watto, but Bell was culpable both for not catching it, then failing to spot the run out there).

We get that you don’t like KP. I’m not quite sure what you’re trying to achieve by ramming this viewpoint any further down our throats.

I really feel for Cook.

I don’t. He was outmanoeuvred by Clarke of all people at just about every level of captaining the fielding side.

So merely asking someone to comment on something they have been vocal on in the past is ‘trolling’ now is it?

It seems your definition of ‘trolling’ may be tainted by your own inability to to be objective when it comes to KP.

It is clear we aren’t going to agree on this, so does that now mean I am not allowed to mention it? Will I have to use code?

So merely asking someone to comment on something they have been vocal on in the past is ‘trolling’ now is it?

When you do so repeatedly, and in a deliberately goading manner with clearly no intention of debating, rather just stating how right you think you are, then yes, that’s trolling.

You made your point: some agreed, others disagreed and pointed out that there are several others equally (if not more) culpable here, not least gormless Captain Cook, whose dismissal in the second innings at Adelaide was the most stupid bit of cricket I’ve ever witnessed from an England player (Bell’s fielding of Watto being a possible exception, but then I only listened to that, rather than watching it).

KP has a responsibility to the team, and one that on occasion he clearly forgets. However, Cook is the captain of the team. If the cap fits, he must wear it. Most of his dismissals have been atrocious, and his fielding strategy has been clueless from the moment we’ve been under pressure. Ironically, there have been a couple of suggested fielding/bowling strategy changes suggested by KP that have yielded wickets. He also actually has a better tour average than Cook, make of that what you will.

I’m not sure KP wanted to cleverly manoeuvre himself into a situation which would only arise if he wasn’t scoring runs. Don’t forget this is a guy who wants to play till 2016 and had to grovel his way back into the team. You may as well replace KP’s name with several other senior players – of course the Management would have to justify dropping them, it could lead to retirement and the media not being best pleased. A more obvious reason why he is more culpable is being the star batsman he should be setting the example to the youngsters.

I’d also like to pick up a point from your post about Cook being outdone in the captaincy stakes by Clarke. It is very difficult to envisage a situation in this series so far when Cook has been able to exhibit his captaincy skills. No runs on the board and equipped with bowlers who are neither taking wickets nor restricting runs. Granted they have had the Aussies five down for less than par a couple of times, but I’m not sure how Cook could have capitalised on these moments any better than he has. Clarke has had some good plans. The KP two mid wickets was one, but when the batsman doesn’t have to walk straight into it.

Cook’s batting form has also deserted him, but you can’t accuse him of not trying. His very essence is that of a trier. He is now batting so deep in the crease that he has no price against a ball that deviates even slightly. That Harris ball that did him for a goldie was a good ball, no mistake. But it only clipped the top of the stump. If he had got a stride in and been hit on the front pad, the initial decision may have been not out. The review may then have saved him if it was a half ball impact. On such small matters big things can rest.

I will apologise, however, for being passionate about this! I grew up from the age of 11 to 28 with the England cricket team being humped by Australia, and to hand the initiative back to a mediocre Aussie team just pisses me off.

Why is the spotlight shining so brightly on KP apart from Stokes no body has shone with the bat,

I think that the Aussies were desperate for this win and stuck to a game plan, targetted Swan and KP which has worked. Trott leaving in the way he did I think has upset everyone way more that they have let on.

Management has been a bit complacent.

Its not the end of the world the sun will come up tomorrow and the next series will be just as exciting.

Ah, so he got one good ball. Some being 5, others being 1. In case you’ve forgotten here are the edited highlights of his dismissals (credit http://www.espncricinfo.com/):

Pietersen has clipped it straight to midwicket. Australia have thought they can get Pietersen that way. It was full on middle, it came right out of the screws, but straight to George Bailey.

Pietersen is heading back to the dressing room, where he’ll get to mull his shot choice of a fresh cup of what-the-hell-was-that?

Pietersen takes a little step down the pitch and clips straight to short midwicket and again Pietersen falls right into the trap.

Siddle didn’t nip it back much, but just enough, and it has caught the inside edge and Pietersen has played on. (oh, a good ball)

Pietersen sticks his bat under his arm and heads off, it’s the way he plays but he’ll know that shot wasn’t really what England needed.

Pietersen has gone trying to play another big shot

In comparison half of Cook’s dismissals have been to good balls (and one of the others wasn’t actually poor shot selection).

For the record I’m actually a Pieterson fan – he hasn’t always played this way, which is why he’s so highly valued. He really does need to sort his head out, or somebody needs to have a talk to him (the question is who he will listen to).

It is very difficult to envisage a situation in this series so far when Cook has been able to exhibit his captaincy skills.

I’ll give you three examples:

132-6 – Gabba
174-4 – Adelaide
143-5 – Waca

On all three occasions, England were on top with all the momentum, and failed to do to the Aussie tail what they did so successfully to ours. Strong captaincy and innovative fielding and bowling changes might have kept that momentum. Instead, on each occasion we allowed Haddin, who whilst good, is no Gilchrist, to dictate terms and wrestle the initiative back.

but you can’t accuse him of not trying

But I can. He just seemed to give up when it wasn’t going well in the field (feeding Clarke singles at the Gabba in the hope that Broad might bounce him out), and as I said, his shot selection (and as you highlight his technique also) have left him very open to that accusation. Don’t get me wrong, I really rate him as a player, but using the same yardstick as you are for KP, he’s got oodles of talent and has failed quite spectacularly to demonstrate it, often with careless or stupid shots. Devil’s advocate at this stage, but KP did try to hit it beyond the fielder at long on, you know. I won’t defend his shot, but he did try to hit a six, and Lyon out of the attack. Ultimately, bar Broad, Stokes, and perhaps Root, all are culpable either through poor application, or just not being good enough in the first place (I like Bressers, but he’ll never routinely worry the best test batsmen, nor bowlers).

and to hand the initiative back to a mediocre Aussie team just pisses me off.

It pisses you off? Try living here! 😳

They all seem to have suddenly become really keen on a sport I’d barely heard a whisper of until about two weeks ago. If I didn’t know what cricket was, for the past 3 ½ years I’ve been here I still wouldn’t until now.

Because he is so much better than this. Certainly the most talented player on either team, arguably the most talented in world cricket at the moment (possibly even the most talented during his career). Some of the other batsmen are struggling to cope – Pieterson is giving it away needlessly.

I don’t think the comparison with Cook is fair. Cook certainly isn’t in top form and is struggling – his poor shot selection has been very uncharacteristic and hints at him needing to do something different because he knows he’s not playing well. It’s hard to say whether Pieterson is in form, but it’s certainly not lack of form which has led to him getting out most of the time – unless of course with Pieterson being in form means he doesn’t play stupid shots.

Note the words I used in my first paragraph – Cook might be a better batsman then Pieterson (he certainly has been at some points in his career), but a lot of that is down to hard work, application and willpower.

Cook has almost the same number of test runs as KP, and I think he has more centuries. He’s achieved this at a much younger age, and all whilst facing the new ball rather than hiding at 4/5 in the middle order. He’ll certainly eclipse KP’s record provided he does regain form. To me, that makes him a better player, so the expectation on him to demonstrate this should remain.

Feeling is if KP applied himself he would be th ebest in the world instead he makes daft decisions and gives his wicket away hence he is blamed

Form may come and go but Pietersens decision making errors are eternal

I’m siding with Dannyh on Cook. It’s easy to be an innovative captain when you hold the whip hand, when you’re being flogged it’s much harder. Yes, a couple of times we’ve had the Aussies under pressure and failed to capitalise, but we always knew in Aus that you make inroads for 35 or 40 overs and then the ball goes soft, and you need patience. Trouble is that no one, but swann in particular hasn’t been able to repel the aus counter attack and hold an end at 2 an over, hence their tail has got them back in it. Whereas our batters have shut up, and then been blown away by fresh pacemen when the new ball comes. And so plan a, attack, has been followed by a failed plan b of keeping it tight for the next new ball, and we’ve conspicuously failed to have plan c, which I put more to the coaching and tactical staff.

I’m worried that the pressure of captaining a failing team could prevent cook from getting back to the heights he’s clearly capable of. We need his runs and I think with carberry, maybe the beginnings of a capable opening pair, more than we need his brand of captaincy.

Of course there’s much more to his captaincy than calling the bowling changes and moving the field about, and maybe he’s still the right man to unite and galvanise them, but not at the detriment of runs, because without runs at the top of the order, we’ll always struggle.

Yes, the point I was trying to make is that Clarke’s job has been made much easier because his batsman are scoring runs, the bowlers are taking wickets and the fielders are taking blinders. Contrast with England.

Anyhow, I think Cook is not a particularly brilliant captain, but he is the only bloke in the England dressing room with the experience, nous, and (until this series) a secure enough place in the team. I have always liked Clarke, he has shown more ‘ticker’ than a lot of the ‘ocker’ Aussies give him credit for. He is a beautifully balanced batsman. He is a better captain than Cook in my opinion, but not miles better. The bloke who should (and probably would) have been captaining England had it not been for the poisonous influence of KP is Strauss. I would recommend reading the “it’s hard being Kevin” article at the front of the 2013 Wisden for a balanced summing up of the issue.

Man for man, England should have won this series (on paper). Man for man, England have been totally outplayed. On this series, can anyone think that England would get more than two players into the ‘team of the series’?

Anyway zokes now has a place in my esteem. I think I had realised you lived in aus as a Brit, so keep your chin up fella. I don’t know if you play cricket over there, but if you do, I’d recommend a DR Jardine harlequin cap and an aloof attitude.

ah fun and games, should we all meet back here with a mince/meat pie and a warm mulled wine/cold beer on the 26th?

First test I stayed up all night to watch. Second test, up late and then up early to catch the start and close of the day. Third test with the smaller time difference – up early to see the middle session before going to work.

So yes, i’ll be here for the fourth test too. But be warned, England, I’m beginning to lose my patience……

What else to do but sit on the sofa with a slab of beer in the fridge and watch the cricket on Boxing Day? Some Australian traditions aren’t so bad!

+1 on the Trott departure upsetting the team balance/morale. It’s not been used as an excuse but must have hit hard.

+1 on the Trott departure upsetting the team balance/morale. It’s not been used as an excuse but must have hit hard.

Considering his batting figures and his normal composure under pressure he was the man for the situation, it’s the name you want to see when the words “England must bat for 3 days to save the test” come up, I’d put money on him doing at least 2 of them…

But looking back at the players that have left the side this isn’t the team that won in the summer or the winners from before there have been small changes along the road but the core of old players remained and the results kept coming. No alarm bells rang until it was too late.

I really hope Trott returns to the team, he is one of those grounded solid guys that it needs to be built on. Lets see if we can keep Stokes away from the Flintoff path too.

[/quote]What else to do but sit on the sofa with a slab of beer in the fridge and watch the cricket on Boxing Day? Some Australian traditions aren’t so bad!

That reminds me, must get my dad put on the insurance so he can drive to Hobart while I look after the slab with the radio on…(it’s one of the citizenship tests I think)

It doesn’t matter…

Swann Retires from all forms of the game? Wonder if he was going to be dropped or just decided to enjoy the rest of the holiday?

This just gets better and better…

I went to school with Andrew Gale. He f’in loved practicing slip catches in the common room.

If he’s not got the desire then I’m glad he’s decided to go. He was a great cricketer though and was often a joy to watch bowl. The Aussies are probably sniggering and thinking what a choker but he won ashes series and bowled them out often enough.
This is turning into one of those series though, just need somebody in tears, a punch up and a ball tampering incident to make it complete.

If he’s not got the desire then I’m glad he’s decided to go. He was a great cricketer though and was often a joy to watch bowl. The Aussies are probably sniggering and thinking what a choker but he won ashes series and bowled them out often enough.

Leaving halfway through a series, particularly the ashes, especially when you are 3 down is pathetic.

You want to know why we are so shit in this series? If Swann’s attitude is prevalent through the squad, there’s your reason.

Maybe he knows he just doesn’t cut it anymore, he said he wasn’t taking wickets late in the match and it’s time for somebody else to have a go.
He contributed to 3 ashes wins but isn’t able to perform at that level. Better to go than wait to be pushed IMHO.

The Aussies are probably sniggering and thinking what a choker

Judging by comments over here, I’d say that those are in the minority.

Swann’s only failure in leaving halfway through is that he didn’t retire before the series. But that said, I’m pretty sure any one of us would have fancied one last crack at ’em when pondering timing of retirement. This way he leaves two dead rubbers to see whether Monty can retake his spot, or whether “hit me for six” Kerrigan has the balls.

The series is over and it’s time for change, he’s just made it easier for Cook and Flower.

Sounds like a case of ,ive been crap so have the team I`m jacking it all in and going home for Xmas and you lot can face the flak without me .Those central contracts will see me alright for money and my autobiography will be out for next Xmas !

Perhaps like others in the current set-up, another failure might be his/their preferred choice of pronoun. Too many defaulting to the first person singular version which says a lot. Marked contrast between this and the All Black culture (if my current reading is anything to go by).