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coz I probably am not. Either way I have some Guardian subscriber vouchers for the month of June (1st to 25th Mon-Sat £22-worth) that I dont need.
[b]Free to the person to come up with most shudderingly Toynbee/Monbiot posting on this subject by Sunday lunchtime.[/b] Marxists need not apply:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13587434
Ministers have tried to highlight the impact of benefit fraud by publishing some of the more unusual excuses used by people found guilty of cheating.Reasons include carrying ladders as therapy rather than for cleaning windows, and claiming an identical twin had been doing work rather than them.
About £1.6bn is lost through benefit and tax credit fraud each year.
😆
They'll all be supping their skinny lattes and checking their online share portfolio valuations at this time on a Sunday morning.
No. I don't like tofu.
The truly informed liberals read the FT Weekend. Wonderful piece about Lady Gaga by Stephen Fry, simply wonderful. Plus it's got all the detail about share portfolios.
I ain't falling for your shite Stoner, but I'll have the vouchers 🙂
After all, if you could afford Osmo Oil, you can afford to chuck away a few vouchers.
I went to see George Monbiot talking in Bristol a couple of weeks ago. It was heavy on the chattering-class pseudo-intellectuals with a smattering of steadfast nuclear haters.
I may agree with much of what George Monbiot says. Does that make me a Guardian reader now? The shame.
No. I don't like tofu.
Cauldron's marinated tofu is surprisingly nice. And it's iAllowed.
Or we could forget about the benefit cheats and try and get our £4.5 billion off of Vodafone or some of the other large corporations that owe us tens of billions.
Do I win? (please do not let me win as I do not live in the suburbs and drive a Prius so am not a guardian reader.)
When I see who slags off Guardian readers here, it makes me positively proud to buy it.
back of the queue DD.
I know you have a copy of the Sun on the dashboard of your works van.
TT - you sick, sick man. Your need the Independent in your life for truly Islingtonista editorials.
When I see who slags off Guardian readers here, it makes me positively proud to buy it.
*cheers and applause* 🙂
More money is lost through error than fraud.
🙄
Last time I answer your silly timber related questions 🙂
More money is lost through error than fraud.
That's nice. Liking that one. 🙂
error is the fault of the system, fraud is the fault of greed.
They are not equivalent.
tofumuncher.
[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/jan/27/tax ]tax avoidance costs much more[/url]
oh yes and hope she dies
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PS i have three different types of Tofu in the fridge 🙄
Will anyone actually defend fraud or lies ?
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how am I doing?
Hope? You mean, she MIGHT NOT?
Interesting argument though. Does this mean that people who nick bikes should not be prosecuted because some people nick expensive jewellery?
the comparable to benefit fraud is tax evasion.
Tax avoidance is no worse than you putting your money in an ISA or paying into your pension. I hope you dont have a pension JY, or you're bang to rights sunshine!
So JY starting to nose ahead with a factually incorrect, commercial bashing, piece of leftist nonsense propaganda.
YAH - you know if we targeted it we would all be better off so I also win in having a point.
Thanks for hoping my retirement will be poor - ah the caring side of Tory politics 😉
See petty digs and not letting it go either 😆
Off out riding Enjoy
PS give it to someone poorer than me who needs it more [ got to be worth some points that one
Sorry, I haven't got time to write a post, as the mung beans need watering.
Hmmmmmmmm Tofu!
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So do I get the vouchers or not?
Does this mean that people who nick bikes should not be prosecuted because some people nick expensive jewellery?
You are good at deductive reasoning aren't you.
Your need the Independent in your life for truly Islingtonista editorials.
Thats in my Favourites as well.
😳
Tax avoidance is no worse than you putting your money in an ISA or paying into your pension.
No it's not.
The govt have decided to let you pay into pensions and ISAs tax free as a break. You're following the rules. Tax evasion is breaking the rules to avoid paying tax for which you are actually liable.
Don't be silly.
Stoner; do you actually know much about real life, and the experiences of people outside your cosy little tory bubble, or is all your 'knowledge' gained from books and newspapers?
Yeah, you can spout a lot of pseudo-intellectual waffle, and produce some nice graphs, but you don't really display much genuine understanding of much of the society in which you live.
And your constant attempts to have a dig at the Left, reveal a fair bit of insecurity and lack of real confidence about yourself. I imagine you're probbly one of those who finds it far easier to express yourself via the safety of the internet, but lacks that same confidence to do so in real life. Same as that Woppit really.
I'd take that Guardian subscription, but sadly I don't have an equivalent subscription of Social Cowards Weekly to offer in return.
Sorry to disturb your Tory Boy circle-jerk though. As you were.
The govt have decided to let you pay into pensions and ISAs tax free as a break. You're following the rules. Tax evasion is breaking the rules to avoid paying tax for which you are actually liable.
Tax evasion <> Tax avoidance
Tax avoidance on the commercial scale it's carried out now, today in the UK is not comparable to a freakin' ISA. It may be legal but it's wrong when it's only the rich who can afford the mechanisms by which to achieve it. Plus the figure dwarves benefit fraud and error by billions.
Highlighting that fraud is actually the smaller loss is not to say 'it's okay' it's to show that the figures usually quoted as fraud are lies.
Yes, I know.
EDIT: just read Stoner's post properly.. as you were.
I was under the impression that tax avoidance was arguably morally corrupt, but perfectly legal.
Can't see how you'd afford a [s]coke whore[/s] girlfriend like this, without it...
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When I see who slags off Guardian readers here, it makes me positively proud to buy it.
I too enjoy watching people revealing their true colours. It's funny when they step out into the light and the true extent of their shrivelled egocentricity is revealed.
Don't read newspapers btw
Edit : good broadside elfin, waiting for the public school common room response you know is coming...
Stoner reneges on voucher offer shocker.
I'm hurting...
I'd be more than happy to discuss such matters with Stoner, Woppit, Flashy etc in person, but for some reason, they seem to be reluctant to finance their gobs...
Funny, that, eh? 😕
They don't want to talk about themselves. Self awareness is not a strong point. Why would they want to talk to you? What can you offer them that they don't already own? They have been brought up to believe that the strong should dominate the weak, you are weak in their eyes.
i can honestly say that i am not a tofu eating liberal nancy.
I'd be more than happy to discuss such matters with Stoner, Woppit, Flashy etc in person, but for some reason, they seem to be reluctant to finance their gobs..
I don't think it's hard to understand. There are a few on here who come across as prize bellends in their internet incarnations - why on earth would I want to waste time with them in person?
Elfin doesnt win because there's too many long words and not enough pictures in the Guardian for him.
And for those trying so hard to find equivalence in them:
If I undertake benefit fraud = I intend to GAIN money from the state by deception
If I undertake Tax Evasion = I Intend to illegally minimise tax payments on INCOME EARNED through deception
If I undertake Tax Avoidance = I intend to minimise tax payments on INCOME EARNED through legal means open and transparent declaration of my intentions.
If I receive benefits through error = I have GAINED money from the state by it's omission or incompetence.
There's massive jumps in morality and legality between each of those, and the tired argument comparing Tax Avoidance with Fraud is so clearly spurious that Im surprised some people still cling to it.
Maybe it's cos they realise they can't actually dominate 'weak' little me, when it comes to actually discussing the reality of stuff, so they continue to stay hidden...
IE, their 'strength' is little more than an illusion, one through which even they can see.
Like that Woppit; gives it all thayt on here, but got spanked by some bloke for riding his bike on the pavement. Din't do owt to prevent himself from getting spanked, but then came on here to vent his frustration and cry about how it was so jolly unfair...
😆
Elfin doesnt win because there's too many long words and not enough pictures in the Guardian for him.
See? Even though I've had as good an education as Stoner, he still feels the need to denigrate me in some manner; still trying to assume some superior position over someone he feels he has a right to be 'better' than. Interesting, because such behaviour surely stems from some sort of deep-set insecurity and jealousy perhaps over the apparent social freedom and confidence enjoyed by someone else.
And it's also interesting to see him try to turn defence into attack. Pity he lacks any real firepower in this respect though.
today's breakfast for me was this tofu omelette:
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also, i once sold a pair of howies jeans to stoner.
just so you know.
not arsed about the subscription though ta!
recycling clothes - truly liberal 😉
EDIT: just looked down, Im actually wearing those jeans now XhX! 😉 They are a little knackered now. Pockets have torn, theres a hole in one knee. How long have I had them?
dunno, couple of years at least, i'd say.
Yes it may be legal stoner but that doesn't make it right. Philip Green is the obvious example, paying £1.2 BILLION of profit EARNED (wow that really works doesn't it!) in the UK to his WIFE in MONACO to avoid paying tax on it.
Love the old 'Trying so hard' line, just because I have a different opinion on it to you doesn't mean I don't understand your argument.
I also note that you omitted the people who are short paid/refused benefits through error. But then people on benefits are [i]always[/i] getting more than they're entitled to, eh?
Elfin doesnt win because there's too many long words and not enough pictures in the Guardian for him.
There you go, it's back to the common room.
Maybe you're right elfin, maybe he is jealous of you.
Maybe it's because he can't [b]buy[/b] it. Even second hand trousers aren't helping
😉
Maybe you're right elfin, maybe he is jealous of you.
Well, I'm certainly a better dancer than him, so I can understand such jealousy. 😀
Maybe it's because he can't buy it.
Trouble is, that he's so out of touch and narrow-minded, that he doesn't even know what the 'it' he can't buy even is...
All very enjoyable, but Im off for a Nutroast with Tofu jus and mung bean stuffing.
One lucky winner has been selected by the Her Majesty's Customs and Revenue computer list of tax dodgers and been emailed.
Rich boys are always shit at dancing, easy win there.
Edit : gods, it's so easy to see stoner off, wasn't debating actually on the agenda at hogwarts?
Mass debating, surely?
Goes without saying elfin, show some class 🙂
Edit: although I reckon until he left school his understanding of TUC was different
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I'm familiar with tax evasion, know what benfit fraud is, have been known to read the Guardian headlines but what's tofu?
Its something you have at bonfire night. Sticks in your teeth I think.
I have heard you can knit with it too.
Its a bit like Soylent green, only made with vegetarians.
is it worth me giving a sensible answer, or am i still way too naive/optimistic about this forum?
You might be thinking of Quorn, you eejit.
Oh, and i'm off to VegFest this evening in Bristol. Stoner/Zulu-Eleven/GashFeart et al would shit their jockeys if they even had to walk past.
In answer to the original question- Yes
There's massive jumps in morality and legality between each of those, and the tired argument comparing Tax Avoidance with Fraud is so clearly spurious that Im surprised some people still cling to it.
I think there is a difference in legality. Tax avoidance usually involves using a legal loophole [ that indeed HMRC may have not realised but they may later close] in order to maximise what you have and minimise what you pay in tax - legal yes moral no but I accept most people would do it. Green is the classic example. I am not sure why you think it is morally defensible when done on the scale of someone who generates his wealth from folk who actually pay tax.
It is nothing like an ISA as that is an attempt by the govt to encourage me to save by offering me a tax break/incentive to do so. IIRC they dont incentivise tax avoidance. I suspect quite a lot of tax legislation is designed specifically to prevent this. I am surprised you would compare it to an ISA tbh.
DD, i was considering going there yesterday. it looked like there was gonna be some good stuff going on, but in the end i decided it was a bit far to travel just to try to nab some freebies!
Don't worry, I can use Google, Xherbivorex. I was just intrigued what something that comes up as a protein supliment had to do with liberalism. My wife's in now and whilst she's never eaten tofu either tells me her American colleage does which does seem to confirm the OP's liberal link.
youre just jealous I can shit when I want to, fibre-boy! 😉
DD, i was considering going there yesterday. it looked like there was gonna be some good stuff going on, but in the end i decided it was a bit far to travel just to try to nab some freebies!
If I'm honest dude, we're stuck in Brizzle without much to do this evening and the wife is pretty much veggie, with me almost, but not quite, there.
I'm not sure it would have been worth a long journey, but we'll get to see Aswad 😀
ah, well not so much a supplement as an 'alternative' source of dietary protein to the generally accepted traditional western ones, and the liberal link is a tired cliche/stereotype really (but i suppose probably quite valid in some sense).
aswad a poor mans JSL
Tax avoidance usually involves using a legal loophole [ that indeed HMRC may have not realised but they may later close] in order to maximise what you have and minimise what you pay in tax
rather caught up in a myth there JY.
Tax planning arrangements have to be pre-approved with HMRC, you cant just invent a dodge in a sandbox, deploy it and then plead it's all kosher because it isnt outlawed. Tax mitigation structures are usually there to either encourage certain behaviour (for example capital investment in business assets) or protect over taxation of other things (like the tax relief a company owner gets when they sell up their company to retire for example).
There will be abuse of the system, even Guardian's holding group is offshore to mitigate transaction tax when it was bought out, which is hardly going to lead to great advocacy, but there's usually more good done by fiscal relaxation than harm.
aswad a poor mans JSL
JSL, a dyslexic mans JLS.
I could of course just claim a typo what with it being me 😉
to be fair, most soya consumed in the world is not hippyapproved.
Most soya is grown in a mono culture desert, is genetically modified, takes a lot of fertiliser and isnt outstandingly good for you.
Its also like eating a tasteless mushy white emulsion 😉
Alpro do a supposedly OK one with bean tracability, sustainability [ no GM] and no deforestation ....like dolphin friendly tuna.
Your are not wrong though tastes of nothing and is soft and mushy - I tend to deep fry it to make it crunchy for stir frys but not the best thing in the world and not ahuge fan. My kids wont eat it all.I am always amazed at what they can get from the humble soya bean though.
aswad a poor mans JSL
You're not wrong 😀
Sometimes I'm really thankful I do my shopping in France.
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Sometimes i am glad I have morals That stuff is bad I know meat eaters who wont eat it. Force feeding an animal so you can have a tasty by product of over feeding is a touch OTT , but we all have our own moral compass.
JY +1
one day I shall hide my moral compass and partake of some Ortolan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ortolan_bunting#Gastronomy
The birds must be taken alive; once captured they are either blinded or kept in a lightless box for a month to gorge on millet, grapes, and figs, a technique apparently taken from the decadent cooks of Imperial Rome who called the birds beccafico, or "fig-pecker". When they've reached four times their normal size, they're drowned in a snifter of Armagnac.Cooking l'ortolan is simplicity itself. Simply pop them in a high oven for six to eight minutes and serve. The secret is entirely in the eating. First you cover your head with a traditional embroidered cloth. Then place the entire four-ounce bird into your mouth. Only its head should dangle out from between your lips. Bite off the head and discard. L'ortolan should be served immediately; it is meant to be so hot that you must rest it on your tongue while inhaling rapidly through your mouth. This cools the bird, but its real purpose is to force you to allow its ambrosial fat to cascade freely down your throat.
When cool, begin to chew. It should take about 15 minutes to work your way through the breast and wings, the delicately crackling bones, and on to the inner organs. Devotees claim they can taste the bird's entire life as they chew in the darkness: the wheat of Morocco, the salt air of the Mediterranean, the lavender of Provence. The pea-sized lungs and heart, saturated with Armagnac from its drowning, are said to burst in a liqueur-scented flower on the diner's tongue. Enjoy with a good Bordeaux.
You probably already have. It wouldn't surprise me tbh.
seen the price of ortolan?
Funnily enough, it's not on my aspirational compass. How much?
1x Ortolan = 5l Osmo hard wax oil
****, if you're using multiples of Osmo Oil, then that really [i]is[/i] pricey 😯