Are the Tories OK after all?

ideological hatred for the public sector

which is somehow so very different from the left’s “ideological hatred for the private sector”….?

Is it an “ideological hatred” when you dont agree with it TJ, but a “manifesto pledge” when you do?

combined liberal/ labour vote is greater than the conservative vote

Aligning the labour and liberal vote is as spurious as aligning the conservative and labour vote.

Liberalism is as anathema to the left as progressive taxation is to the right.

which is somehow so very different from the left’s “ideological hatred for the private sector”….?

Is it an “ideological hatred” when you dont agree with it TJ, but a “manifesto pledge” when you do?

Could you give me examples of successful private sector companies being nationalised?

Aligning the labour and liberal vote is as spurious as aligning the conservative and labour vote.

No it isn’t, as the expressed views of many in the Lib Dems indicates. You also seem to forget who formed the SDP.

i donated £15 to the east african fund through DEC and didnt go to the pub last night

best use of 3mins of prime time tv, wont change my political/voting habits – in much the same way that no other PPB ever has

nationalisation is not the only tool that the left would use to suppress private enterprise now is it?

Taxation (NI, VAT leakage, Corporate, Transaction, Stamp Duty etc)
Restrictive employment legislation
Trade tariffs
Duty
Anti-dumping legislation
Registration and certification legislation
etc etc

I continue to be astounded by how much some people are taken in by the tory party.

Are yo really that naive? Have a look at the links between the tories and the American healthcare companies and then look at the proposals for the NHS. These are designed to allow the companies to cherry pick the bits of the NHS thjey can make profit from. The tories NHS reforms are designed to make profits for private companies.

As for the austerity cuts – anyone with half a brain knows this will and now clearly is making things worse. Its clearly obvious in the numbers. As its so obvious it is and will continue to make things worse the only possible explanation is that the tories want to destroy the public sector from Idewological hatred

remember Germany and france have bigger public sectors and higher taxation than the UK

Stoner – whats that fatuous comment all about? I am no supporter of the labour party. I do care about the truth and about the state of our country.

Taxation is a tool to supresse private enterprise as is employment legislation

Stupoid even for you Stoner.

No it isn’t, as the expressed views of many in the Lib Dems indicates

exceptions do not prove the rule. There’s as many liberals who are repelled by Labour as by Conservative. That’s the idiocy of aligning them with right and left as they are neither, their ground is centrist but not common to both the other parties.

Taxation is a tool to supresse private enterprise as is employment legislation

Stupoid even for you Stoner.

Relative scales of taxation and employment legislation TJ, not absolute existence or not.

Stupid even for you.

Stoner – whats that fatuous comment all about? I am no supporter of the labour party.

I beg your pardon then. How about: “ideological hatred” of the English instead?

nationalisation is not the only tool that the left would use to suppress private enterprise now is it?

Taxation (NI, VAT leakage, Corporate, Transaction, Stamp Duty etc)
Restrictive employment legislation
Trade tariffs
Duty
Anti-dumping legislation
Registration and certification legislation
etc etc

Ah, so protecting workers’ rights is suppressing private enterprise is it? Isn’t it interesting how countries with left of centre governments, high levels of taxation, and high levels of employee protection manage to remain competitive?

“exceptions do not prove the rule. There’s as many liberals who are repelled by Labour as by Conservative. That’s the idiocy of aligning them with right and left as they are neither, their ground is centrist but not common to both the other parties.”

A centrist party was founded by labour MPs, and is now part of the Lib Dems.

Next!

Marks and Spencers!

Like Germany ransos?

There was a case a couple of years ago when a multinational wanted to shut one of its European plants. it shut the UK one – why? because it was cheaper. To shut the German one would have meant they would have had to pay redundancy and compensation on a much larger scale.

So Germany kept the jobs, the UK lost them precisely because they had decent employment protection

would that be the same Germany with “Private sector growth at 26-month low in Sept”?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/feedarticle/9859663

EDIT: anyway, stuff to do. Catch up with you boys later.

“Like Germany ransos?”

Yes, and the Scandinavian countries. I don’t understand why it’s considered to be axiomatic that relatively high levels of tax and employee rights reduce competitiveness: those countries prove the opposite.

Ransos – because teh far right economically folk such as stoner want to believe it as it supports their prejudices.

“would that be the same Germany with “Private sector growth at 26-month low in Sept”?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/feedarticle/9859663

EDIT: anyway, stuff to do. Catch up with you boys later. “

Is that the best you can do? How well is the UK doing, with its low tax, low-rights regime? How would you like to compare the relative performance of the UK, Germany & Scandinavia over the last 30 years? What do you think that would show?

Are we allowed to mention the ‘Arc of Prosperity’?

With their low tax, light-touch regulatory regimes. How are they all doing?

How would you like to compare the relative performance of the UK, Germany & Scandinavia over the last 30 years?

Not too shabby as it happens:

best I can do at short notice (havent time to work up the source data at the moment)

Not too shabby as it happens:

best I can do at short notice (havent time to work up the source data at the moment)

Your graph shows that Germany outperformed or matched the UK. So they absorbed a communist basket case, have higher tax and higher employee protection, yet are as good as the UK in GDP.

Thanks for proving my point. Shall we do Scandinavia next?

I made a pact yesterday – stop having econ/political debates on STW as positions too entrenched and arguments become circular – far better to get on your bike and go for a ride. Healthier and far more interesting.

So calm down everyone – go for a ride before winter arrives!

Your graph shows that Germany outperformed or matched the UK

eeerrrrrrr…

German GDP per capita USD 2000prices 1970: $11,859 to 2009: $25,450 = 14.6% real growth

German UK* GDP per capita USD 2000prices 1970: $13,053 to 2009: $28,955 = 21.8% real growth

I can lend you some glasses if you like 😉

* thanks emz

I made a pact yesterday – stop having econ/political debates on STW as positions too entrenched and arguments become circular

yeah, but the predictability is comforting.
You’ll be back.

You should carry on IMHO you bring a fair amount to the table, even though you are almost always wrong 😀

soobalias – Member

i donated £15 to the east african fund through DEC and didnt go to the pub last night

best use of 3mins of prime time tv, wont change my political/voting habits – in much the same way that no other PPB ever has

Some good achieved, so maybe the dubious motivation of Dave et al doesn’t matter?

…{and the state of German banking] …oops, almost got drawn back in! Where’s my bike gone!

Thank you JY – very drole!! 😉

I made a pact yesterday – stop having econ/political debates on STW as positions too entrenched and arguments become circular

On this forum, arguments aren’t circular, they’re cyclical.

edit your post stoner.

circular, they’re cyclical.

if theyre both does that make them sinusoidal?

So Germany started from a higher base, and you think this is a bad thing? Interesting. So, as I said: communist basket case integrated, high tax, high rights, and they’re the largest economy in Europe.

Sadly for you, glasses won’t cure your myopia. 😉

To go back to an erlier point.

Of course the tory policies are designed to enrich their backers – that is the whole reason for the tory party.

For example

Hedge fund boss John Nash is one of the major Conservative donors with close ties to the healthcare industry.

He and wife Caroline gave £203,500 to the party over the past five years. The cash included £21,000 which was given directly to Health Secretary Andrew Lansley to bankroll his office before the Conservatives took power. At the time the Lib Dems slammed the payments as a “staggering conflict of interest”.

The City tycoon was chairman of Care UK, which makes most of its money from the NHS, when most of the donations were made. Mr Nash continued to work as a consultant to the firm, which provides walk-in centres, GP surgeries and other specialist services, after selling his majority stake to a private equity firm last year.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/2011/01/19/nhs-reform-leaves-tory-backers-with-links-to-private-healthcare-firms-set-for-bonanza-115875-22859373/

Or teh telegraph if you prefer

Andrew Lansley, the shadow health secretary, is being bankrolled by the head of one of the biggest private health providers to the NHS, The Daily Telegraph can disclose.

Or the sunday times

The Shadow Health Minister, Lord McColl, is a paid consultant to a new private healthcare company that provides a fee-paying rival to the National Health Service’s family doctor service.

Endeavour Health, which was set up by two hedge fund advisers, claims to be Britain’s first comprehensive GP network, offering access to the best doctors and the opportunity to beat NHS queues and have appointments at any time they want.

Lord McColl’s involvement with a private healthcare provider highlights the strains within the Conservative Party, which is trying to present itself as a champion of the NHS while also maintaining its traditional links with the industry. David Cameron has been forced to reiterate his commitment to a free health service after the prominent Conservative MEP Daniel Hannan described the NHS as a “60-year mistake” that he “wouldn’t wish on anyone”.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6801270.ece

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/6989408/Andrew-Lansley-bankrolled-by-private-healthcare-provider.html

German GDP per capita USD 2000prices 1970: $11,859 to 2009: $25,450 = 14.6% real growth

German GDP per capita USD 2000prices 1970: $13,053 to 2009: $28,955 = 21.8% real growth

I can lend you some glasses if you like
Think you need a new pair anyway 😉

Hows that growth worked out?
Th e proportional increase is nearly identical
If you just divide the first number by the second you get 2.16 and 2.22 respectively which seems pretty comparable/near identical over 40 years. They did absorb East Germany in that time. It seems safe to assume that West germany would have grown considerably more iwth out its Eastern tax/subsidy tbh.

sorry my typo appears to have confused ransos & JY 😉

Growth = (GDP2 – GDP1)/GDP1

UK started from a higher base, but finished at a proportionally higher GDP.

ergo, UK has outperformed Germany over the last 40 years.

As for the East germany thing, maybe Germany couldnt have grown without the cheaper Easter German labour? Maybe UK might have grown faster if it werent being held back by Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales?

*retires to a safe distance*

As for the East germany thing, maybe Germany couldnt have grown without the cheaper Easter German labour? Maybe UK might have grown faster if it werent being held back by Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales?

No you didn’t…

*retires to a safe distance*

Bolivia?

TJ – you missed out Djangoly as well.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/oct/02/justice-minister-failed-to-declare-interest

The simple fact is that, as of 2010 Germany has a higher GDP per capita than the UK. It also has higher taxes and higher levels of employee protection. If you believe that East Germany wasn’t a huge drain on resources then you need your head read.

Stoner: your case is dismissed:

Country GDP per Capita (PPP)$
Norway 51959
Sweden 38204
Denmark 36444
Germany 36081
UK 35059
Finland 34918

IMF data.

Maybe UK might have grown faster if it werent being held back by Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales?

*sighs*

Scotland is in surplus, scotland sends money south

http://www.channel4.com/news/andrew-lansleys-nhs-plans-still-in-good-health

http://www.lobbyingtransparency.org/content/view/54/1/

UK has outperformed Germany over the last 40 years.

If you use your statistic of choice yet the proportional increase is identical
I am not sure you have proved your point
I find it a disgraceful slur for you to suggest I am confused about economics 😯 😆
Lies damn lies and statistics then???