American journalist death

if we had not quelled Hitler and his ideas ,would there be peace in the world under one nuthob

No. It was never just “one nuthob” (sic). Hitler, like al-Baghdadi, was a delegative leader. Hence the Nurembeg trials, no?

Whilst we’re on the subject, this from W H Auden writing in response to the “Great Leaders” of the 1930’s. Just as pertinent today with the religious versions currently strutting the stage:

“The Ogre does what ogres can,
Deeds quite impossible for Man,
But one prize is beyond his reach,
The Ogre cannot master Speech:
About a subjugated plain,
Among its desperate and slain,
The Ogre stalks with hands on hips,
While drivel gushes from his lips.”

if we had not quelled Hitler and his ideas ,would there be peace in the world under one nuthob

No. It was never just “one nuthob” (sic). Hitler, like al-Baghdadi, was a delegative leader. Hence the Nurembeg trials, no?

So, just like he suggested, everything happening under one leader/nutjob

I’ve spent a bit of time this morning thinking about the brutal and depraved experience this poor man has been put through over the last 2 years – it genuinely makes me feel very upset that any human being can take such pleasure in the torture of another, more so that in this case it’s yet again someone from Britain doing it.

The fact that the mindset behind these decapitations is held by large numbers of people, and that at least three similar events (1 in London, 2 abroad by Londoners) have already taken place surely must bring into question whether we are sufficiently on top of what’s happening in institutions and organisations that are under religious control.

Today’s article in The Times about corruption and undue religious influence in Tower Hamlets, and the ongoing debate about “Trojan Horse” would seem to suggest that the peaceful, stable and democratic society we take for granted may be at risk, not least when the 1,000+ Britains now believed to be fighting in Iraq and Syria return home.

Aside from the rhetoric, no-one seems to have any real idea of how to deal with the mindset or the sizable minority of our fellow britons who opening espouse it. When people handing out ISIS literature to shoppers in London and openly advocating murder in the process are allowed to continue unhindered it really does beg the question of whether anyone’s got the courage to start confronting the underlying mindset.

it genuinely makes me feel very upset that any human being can take such pleasure in the torture of another, more so that in this case it’s yet again someone from Britain doing it.

I’m not sure they enjoy it at all. Their strategy is to be feared and to do so they know that they must go to sickening lengths. That’s why they video it and publish the recording. They know that we live and operate bound by rules which they don’t and so they will exploit it, and us.
Brits going abroad to commit atrocities? It has to stop, and I’m happy for “them” to use whatever means necessary to ensure that these people don’t return.

Going back to medieval times due to religion what a surprise. Take all these bellends to the natural history museum and teach them evolution.

“I’m not sure they enjoy it at all”

The british guy two weeks ago certainly did – he laughed and made a joke about how long it had taken to hack the poor victim’s head off.

Any UK citizen who goes abroad to fight for ISIS should instantly forfeit their UK citizenship. You go to fight, you don’t come back to the UK, ever.

Wrecker is correct you cannot spread terror without doing bad things hence why they show them doign bad things. It makes you know that you if you fight them you will die if they get you. A powerful weapon in a fight as many will run away rather than fight.

TBH using drones to bomb folk is not any better IMHO

I am not sure why we think close and personal is more cruel than distant and by remote control. I have not watched the clip and wont be watching it.

Any UK citizen who goes abroad to fight for ISIS should instantly forfeit their UK citizenship. You go to fight, you don’t come back to the UK, ever.

what about if you fight for other nations?

. I have not watched the clip and wont be watching it.

Nor me. I can’t see any benefit from doing so. I had to watch one some time ago and it’s not something I’d do by choice.

r.i.p james foley 🙁

Like gay porn, I’m aware of its existence, but don’t have the slightest desire to ever watch it.

What I find terrifying about this is… I can maybe understand if you’re dragged up in some god-forsaken middle eastern hell-hole, where the whole society is brutalised by some medieval dictatorship, or constant warfare, and life is cheap, then you’d regard this kind of thing as somehow acceptable. But if you’ve got someone brought up in a civilised, liberal, democratic society, then how the hell do you end up having your humanity removed to the degree that you could do something like this. It just doesn’t compute!

What also quite disturbing (if anything could be rated as disturbing alongside a beheading such as this), is that many of these people who have grown up in a western society are actually quite tied to the society they claim to detest. Plenty of them retain their facebook and twitter accounts and post up pictures of them holding blinged up guns. They boast about having all the mod cons like air con, wifi and TV while simultaneously shouting about bringing down the society that provided them.

It’s clear a large number of these people are either there just for the excitement or are very confused and yet people are being killed over these messed up ideals.

Binners I think a number of things happens
1. You are young and idealistic
2. you see western hypocrisy in its foreign policy
3. you watch lots and lots of videos of the aftermath of us bombing/shooting your muslim brothers. you think we do not commit atrocities in far off lands?
4. you are mentally ill
5. I think you need to be deeply religious to this – perhaps massively politically motivated but these days you need religious fervour to do this sort of thing.
Usually a combination of those 4 IMHO

Aside from the rhetoric, no-one seems to have any real idea of how to deal with the mindset or the sizable minority of our fellow britons who opening espouse it. When people handing out ISIS literature to shoppers in London and openly advocating murder in the process are allowed to continue unhindered it really does beg the question of whether anyone’s got the courage to start confronting the underlying mindset.

I’ve been wondering about this too. Being a lefty-pinko-liberal I’ve always had the view that islamic extremism is fuelled and enabled by the West’s imperialistic domination of the middle east. Whilst I still think this is the case, there comes a point where it needs to be directly confronted and defeated rather than appeased and apologised for, and I think that point has probably been reached. How that happens though without making it worse is anyone’s guess.

But if you’ve got someone brought up in a civilised, liberal, democratic society, then how the hell do you end up having your humanity removed to the degree that you could do something like this. It just doesn’t compute!

it doesnt make a difference where they grew up…if they were never taught a sense of morality or human compassion they will always take pleasure in such barbaric acts…these are the ones who willingly go with very little coercion from their uk based recruiters
then you have the weak minded and gullible ones who are easily brainwashed into thinking this is acceptable…again some of them go out there and enjoy partaking in this, but there is probably an equal minority who once they get out there realise the true extent of what they’re now involved in…they dont enjoy it but they now have no choice but to go along with it and stay quiet…
to stop them from going the ones who do the radicalising and recruiting need to be stopped.

Any UK citizen who goes abroad to fight for ISIS should instantly forfeit their UK citizenship. You go to fight, you don’t come back to the UK, ever.

what about if you fight for other nations?[/quote]

There are UK and USA citizens fighting in conflicts all over the world, many of whom are trained at the taxpayers expense as they are ex-military. We should be hunting down these ‘soldiers of fortune’ as well.

having watched a similar video of some mexican cartel using a chainsaw on a couple of people (out of morbid curiosity) I now have a better idea of where my limits to what I can watch are.

that is the only good thing to come out of watching it, before watching I thought nothing would faze me but the way a man sat there next to someone getting cut in half with a chainsaw without putting up a struggle and then got chopped himself was what troubled me most (and still does).

To think of what must have gone on prior to the act to totally take the fight out of you when you know what you are facing still to this day haunts me

what about if you fight for other nations?

Legaly that’s fine (within the bounds of the Geneva Convention, war crimes etc). You can quite legaly go an do stint in the Foreign Legion then come back (and IIRC if for whatever reason you can’t to your own country, the French will give you an entirely new identiy if you want it). What you can’t do it go and fight for non state armies (whatever the technical term is), which basicly covers the western defiition of Terrorist.

What would be less clear would be if you were fighting for the Taliban, who were pre the occupation of Afganistan, the national army.

As for how calm he looks, it’s not the same, but, I’ve crashed and broken bones and knocked myself out, and despite the pain and what you think would be human nature to fight to stay awake, it was an odly calm “I’ll just close my eyes now” feeling.

Wild concept, but maybe orchestrated by Mi6/CIA handlers to stir press support for military intervention?

Certainly a clear precedent set:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/21/government-agents-directly-involved-us-terror-plots-report?CMP=twt_fd&CMP=SOCxx2I2

http://www.exaronews.com/articles/5320/mi5-and-mi6-tell-mps-to-censor-key-report-on-lee-rigby-s-killers

We all know how cunning our Governments can be when it comes to justifying profitable war; loss of life is irrelevant to the power brokers…

There are UK and USA citizens fighting in conflicts all over the world, many of whom are trained at the taxpayers expense as they are ex-military. We should be hunting down these ‘soldiers of fortune’ as well.

Not really correct, and not remotely comparable. They aren’t acting as mercenaries in the sense that they aren’t fighting for a nation or cause. They are security contractors and aren’t really paid to “fight” at all. They are hired protection, not hired warfighters. Very very different to idealogical war tourists comitting genocide, and an ignorant comparison.

I’m not sure they enjoy it at all.

Some might not enjoy it, but the brain is wonderful at compartmentalizing guilt and shame if you are able to justify your actions to yourself.

Not seen it, don’t want to.

Religion, so often an excuse for violence.

Not really correct, and not remotely comparable. They aren’t acting as mercenaries in the sense that they aren’t fighting for a nation or cause. They are security contractors and aren’t really paid to “fight” at all. They are hired protection, not hired warfighters. Very very different to idealogical war tourists comitting genocide, and an ignorant comparison.

Worth a read…

It’s still so far from comparable that I can’t even explain it.
I know about Blackwater too, I’ve read the 560 page book about them, which was less than complimentary for obvious reasons.

what about if you fight for other nations?

@JY Situation specific.

As for the soldiers of fortune comments above such mercenaries are often brought to justice locally, unless you are Mark Thatcher of course.

I just listened to the voice only link on the Guardian website. It’s quite chilling how well spoken the individual is, clearly well educated and attentive to his diction.

I have watched a couple of them. I wanted to see what true evil looks like. We are truly in dangerous times with extremists like these in our midsts.

RIP James Foley you deserved better.

There’s a well known Jihadist with a record of finance extremists running a charity in Ipswich, he may well be completely reformed of course but they are getting money from somewhere and I’m not sure I share your confidence in our intelligence services.

@wilbert, I suppose I hope I am right and you are wrong with regard to surveillance.

There has been a huge increase in the amount of Muslim/Charity bank accounts being shut down by British banks. Whilst the press is linking this to fines by the US on banks like HSBC (insufficient money laundering checks for Mexican drug cartels, involvement in transfers to sanctioned countries like Iran) I wonder whether it isn’t more closely linked to ISIS. From what I’ve read some seems to be an overshoot (ie legitimate accounts being closed) which is to be regretted but the banks are operating a better safe than sorry approach.

Also ISIS captured the large bank in Mosul and is rumoured to be selling oil through Turkey, they are well funded

@RaveyDavey – have they affected you (other than to confirm your view of the individuals/organisations) ?

I watched the Ken Bigley video up to the point where they started to cut and quickly turned it off. Never wanted to see another since as it completely horrified me. Still does!

Unfortunately, this is probably the start of a series of executions of apparently around 30-40 western hostages that are estimated to be in the area. To remind you we recently had a couple of female aid workers taken in Syria. Chances are they will get to ISIS and used for maximum publicity. Truly horrifying prospect.

I never have and don’t wish to see it.
Why has Cameron come back from his holiday.

These people having been beheading and slaughtering people by the side of the road for months .
Is it because an American died or because it was maybe a Brit that did it.

the beheading of innocents and the bombing of the people responsible with drones are incomparable.

The sooner Isis are pushing up the Daisy’s the better.

The acts are performed to make content for the videos, the videos are made because the perpetrators want them watched. So that’s one very good reason not to watch them I think. One could even make a case that watching them voluntarily gives the watcher a degree of complicity in the act, and makes more such acts more likely. (Actually, even just talking about them helps the perps. believe they have achieved their aims).

On a more personal basis, I simply don’t want those images in my memory bank, no way.

Second Journo held by ISIS thretened

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/steven-sotloff-isis-threatens-second-journalist-after-beheading-of-james-foley-9680129.html

the beheading of innocents and the bombing of the people responsible with drones are incomparable

what about the bombing of innocents? or is ‘collateral damage’ acceptable if you don’t have to look at it up close?

the beheading of innocents and the bombing of the people responsible with drones are incomparable.

Maybe to you. However to many muslims the drone attacks are very comparable. In fact when you look at all the outrage in the west from one execution, imagine that happening on a weekly basis where there are multiple victims and not just one, and where the executioners are sat in a control room on another continent. There is understandable horror at the method of this murder, but do you think a 1000lb bomb cutting to pieces anyone within a 100m radius is any less horrific?

The acts are performed to make content for the videos, the videos are made because the perpetrators want them watched. So that’s one very good reason not to watch them I think. One could even make a case that watching them voluntarily gives the watcher a degree of complicity in the act, and makes more such acts more likely. (Actually, even just talking about them helps the perps. believe they have achieved their aims).

+1

The media shouldn’t be discussing it in the headlines, in the back pages of broadsheets yes, running the story on the front page of the Daily Fail just encourages it.

@RaveyDavey – have they affected you (other than to confirm your view of the individuals/organisations) ?

Anyone who watches these videos and isn’t affected needs to seek help! I have seen some awful things in real life that were worse than this but not delivered in such a callous and cold hearted manner. It suggests to me that psycopathic or sociopathic behaviour (i’m never quite sure of the difference)isn’t necessarily there from birth.

yes its the daily Mails fault they did it

Liking your logic tom