Why has Cameron come back from his holiday.

These people having been beheading and slaughtering people by the side of the road for months .
Is it because an American died or because it was maybe a Brit that did it.
In large part to avoid media reports of “why is Cameron on holiday when ..”

Yes the fact its a be-heading and that a Brit is likely to have done it is relevant. It also seems likely there will be an escalation in our military involvement and also in UK based surveillance / security operations.

Anyone who watches these videos and isn’t affected needs to seek help! I have seen some awful things in real life that were worse than this but not delivered in such a callous and cold hearted manner. It suggests to me that psycopathic or sociopathic behaviour (i’m never quite sure of the difference)isn’t necessarily there from birth.

I seem to remember there has been some discussion about “acquired” sociopathy, however perfectly normal caring human beings were guards at concentration camps in Germany. They would go back to their homes after work and genuinely care about their family. The human brain has a remarkable capacity to dehumanize and compartmentalize behavior that is otherwise unacceptable to non-sociopaths.

yes its the daily Mails fault they did it

Liking your logic tom

Whatever. We come back to the point Brooker made, that school shootings go up when there is mass media coverage of such an event. The media should have some social responsibility, however that’s hard to weigh against freedom of the press. Carry on making smart arse comments though.

I read a piece recently (on Middle East website Al-Monitor I think) which said Al-Q stopped the be-headings as they decided they where counter-productive as they had the impact of strengthening the resolve of the West and ensuring public opinion was more strongly united against them giving the Western governments more leeway to respond. The fact Al-Q regards ISIS as too extreme is quite revealing.

Why has Cameron come back from his holiday.

Have you ever known an opportunity the PR man has missed to look outraged and indignant, then make spurious claims to do something vague, and non-specific to combat it? Then manipulating the whole situation to further his own agenda?

Dave has been itching to have his own war for ages. Tony had two. He wants his! Look at Syria. He was chomping at the bit to send the Tornado’s in and start turning the desert into glass. The irony of that being to help out the very people now beheading journalists will no doubt be completely lost on him. He demands his Churchill/Thatcher moment. Its his destiny! His birthright! He wants to be seen as a strong leader sending the troops in, for lofty ideals like democracy n stuff.

And in true Dave fashion, he will now cynically exploit this moment of national outrage, to up the ante with military action in Iraq. With this horror all over the papers and the internet, do you think Millibean is going to stand up and stop him this time? This will not end well

The human brain has a remarkable capacity to dehumanize and compartmentalize behavior that is otherwise unacceptable to non-sociopaths.

Like interent posting stuff for a reaction?

tom do you not do humour re the above an the Mail comment?

yes they do have a responsibility but expecting that shower[ the media] to behave morally is as likely than expecting ISIS to behave morally.

bikebouy – Member
I’m just going to add.

RIP to James Foley.

He died doing what he loved.

Except he didn’t die doing what he loved – if he had been killed by shrapnel or a stray round while he was filming then, yes, I would agree – he would have died doing something that he presumably lived for.
I suspect his family would have found the idea of that far easier to come to terms with than that of him being brutally butchered the way he ultimately was.
It is truly sickening what human beings will do to each other.

Like interent posting stuff for a reaction?
tom do you not do humour re the above an the Mail comment?

yes they do have a responsibility but expecting that shower[ the media] to behave morally is as likely than expecting ISIS to behave morally.

True but I would like to see an awareness campaign launched in regards to this topic.

It is truly sickening what human beings will do to each other.

It’s when you realize that perfectly normal human beings and not just monsters are capable of doing this to each other that the cynicism starts kicking in.

Some on here aren’t interested in understanding why reasonably normal people do these things to each other though.

He wants his Churchill/Thatcher moment.

As did Blair, and look at his legacy……..
More to the point, IS do need stopping and who is going to do it?
If CMD does nothing; he’s almost condoning it and there appears to be a number of British nationals taking part which is a huge embarassment.
If he does go in, he’s a warmongering, grandstanding wannabe prepping for an election.
He can’t win.

“Dave has been itching to have his own war for ages. Tony had two. He wants his! Look at Syria. He was chomping at the bit to send the Tornado’s in and start turning the desert into glass.”

Given that Tony Blair abused Parliamentary Process and went to war, and David Cameron actually gave Parliament its say and accepted the vote result, the evidence that Dave wants his own war is pretty flimsy outside the bubble of internet rhetoric and conspiracy theories.

If CMD does nothing; he’s almost condoning it and there appears to be a number of British nationals taking part which is a huge embarassment.

I think anyone with half a brain would consider that this is an incredibly difficult problem that can’t simply be solved by dropping a load of bombs or locking up any muslim with anti-western beliefs. Sadly though I think he probably will take the path demanded of him by the warmongers/idiots/tabloids/tabloid readers. I fear another war is on the horizon. And it’ll be much bigger than those that came before it.

If he does go in, he’s a warmongering, grandstanding wannabe prepping for an election.
He can’t win.

As somebody said earlier, the benchmark needs to be what can we do that will improve the situation? To actually make things better? Have we ever made anything better, anywhere in the Middle East? No! And thats not about to change now.

I believe Blair went in to Iraq and Afghanistan for what in his twisted, messianic head were the right reasons. And he absolutely refused to countenance any warnings about the absolute disaster the whole adventure would turn out to be? Plenty of people were warning about unleashing sectarian civil war on the region. Did he listen? Of course not! He thinks he’s god! And surely even the most pessimistic voices never envisaged this!

Our policy in the region has been an unmitigated disaster for about 100 years. We need to get over our colonial instincts, and just let them get on with it! If they want to butcher each other, then so be it! If we want to appease our liberal, post-colonial guilt – fine – keep sending aid. Start accepting refugees.

But any military involvement will be the same disaster as it has always been. I’d put my house on it only inflaming the situation further. If thats at all possible. We need to completely extricate ourselves front the entire region, and just let them get on with it!!!

We need to completely extricate ourselves front the entire region, and just let them get on with it!!!

And stop providing weapons, directly or indirectly…

I can’t see how this will ever end. For every extremist killed there will be a hundred born who see him as a martyr. I feel sorry for the peaceful muslims, who are in the majority. We will probably bomb some region out of existence before long and they will be the ones suffering.

And stop providing weapons, directly or indirectly…

And buying their oil, and supporting medieval monarchies like Saudi Arabia, Dubai and Qatar, and turning a blind eye to Israeli atrocities etc….

Whatever happens, I do hope that those from britain who went over to lend a hand are at the very least expelled from the UK.

see all that bickering and political recriminations up there ^^

that’s exactly what the murderers want to achieve

I fear another war is on the horizon. And it’ll be much bigger than those that came before it.

Agreed. & I suspect it was near inevitable as soon as IS achieved some kind of traction. As soon as IS were strong enough to attack the US/UK or elsewhere, I think they’d have done it. Maybe dragging in the US was the aim, or at least a welcome side effect, of their actions re the minorities.

This one’s not going to go away, and regardless of the root cause, the past can’t be undone, we have to deal with how it is now.

May as well get on with it.

We need to completely extricate ourselves front the entire region, and just let them get on with it!!!

binners that wont happen though…the west has been meddling in the region simply because of what’s under the sand…if the locals are busy killing each other then the region becomes too dangerous for the west to get its oil supply and everything grinds to a halt.

On the plus side my overtime will go through the roof if the yanks start firing off missiles like confetti

Whatever happens, I do hope that those from britain who went over to lend a hand are at the very least expelled from the UK.

but it doesnt stop more from going over there….more needs to be done here to find the ones doing the recruiting and radicalising. they’re the ones who need to be stopped first.
cut off the ISIS financial and personnel support from the UK

binners that wont happen though…the west has been meddling in the region simply because of what’s under the sand…if the locals are busy killing each other then the region becomes too dangerous for the west to get its oil supply and everything grinds to a halt.

and anyway it’s too late, they’d attack us anyway

like it or not, we’re in a war now and the opportunity to avoid that is long past

I believe Blair went in to Iraq and Afghanistan for what in his twisted, messianic head were the right reasons. And he absolutely refused to countenance any warnings about the absolute disaster the whole adventure would turn out to be? Plenty of people were warning about unleashing sectarian civil war on the region. Did he listen? Of course not! He thinks he’s god! And surely even the most pessimistic voices never envisaged this!

As we switch to our outside broadcast unit, for comment on the Middle East developments from Tony Blair, Envoy of the Quartet on the Middle East…

gonzy – you’re bang on. But we need to look at the whole thing with cooler heads and look not at the intended outcomes, but the actual outcomes.

We went into Iraq to secure that oil. After trillions of quid, a lot of big bangs,countless deaths, and creating absolute chaos, the biggest oil refinery in Iraq is now in the hands of a bunch of Psychopathic, genocidal, fundamentalist nut-jobs. They’re tooled up to the nines, extremely well funded, and not daft. That oil we ‘secured’ is now in their hands, they’re selling it on the black market to fund christ-only-knows-what!

So that all went well

Its difficult to imagine the situation being any worse. But thats the beauty of the Middle East. It never fails to surprise with just how much more apocalyptic it can become. I reckon that if we go in, the situation can only deteriorate further. We’ll have no more success than on any other previous adventures. Just leave the mad bastards to it!

They want their caliphate? Great. It’ll be like an international magnet for hardcore nut-jobs. Fantastic. And what these lot always prove is that as soon as they get their own place they then start enthusiastically having games of ‘I’m more islamic than you’ , then wiping each other out.

They’re all absolutely mental!!! Let them get on with it

more needs to be done here to find the ones doing the recruiting and radicalising. they’re the ones who need to be stopped first

Completely agree. That’s why the anti terror outfits need more powers and the intelligence community needs more money.

As we switch to our outside broadcast unit, for comment on the Middle East developments from Tony Blair, Envoy of the Quartet on the Middle East…

mattjg – Member
and anyway it’s too late, they’d attack us anyway

like it or not, we’re in a war now and the opportunity to avoid that is long pastI’m afraid this is largely correct, although we can probably do two things:
1. Work to eradicate domestic fundamentalists and terrorists, including those who aid and abet them.
2. Desist from any action on the ground. It can no longer be considered ‘our’ war and mores the point, we cannot ‘win’ it.

Watched one when it was a quite new phenomenon during the Iraq war, truly horrific and the images never leave your mind. No desire to see it again.

I’m generally a moderate, but I am genuinely worried about this current situation. It just seems to be moving beyond religion and just becoming a thing with a life of its own, perpetuated by social media, that sucks in youths looking for notoriety.
It doesn’t take a great leap of imagination to see this kind of thing happening here in the not too distant future.

If we do nothing and they take control of Iraq and then Syria, do you think they will stop and swap their weapons for daffodils,

No they will continue on with a view to world domination.
That normally does not end well .

If you want to make sure you don’t find yourself one day kneeling in the dirt waiting to be slaughtered, act now.

Some on here aren’t interested in understanding why reasonably normal people do these things to each other though.

No one wants to think that they are capable of doing it is why folk do not want to think that ordinary folk do it.
When it is on state scale of industrial slaughter – WW2 genocide then ordinary folk do to heinous things – this conflict it is the ubber zealots alone doing it IMHO.

Given that Tony Blair abused Parliamentary Process and went to war, and David Cameron actually gave Parliament its say and accepted the vote result, the evidence that Dave wants his own war is pretty flimsy outside the bubble of internet rhetoric and conspiracy theories.

EH ? Both had a vote on it Blair won [ due to Tory support as 1/3 of the labour party and all the lib dems [ iirc one did not vote ] voted against it
CMD did the same and he was in favour of war, he lost the vote unlike Blair he had not choice but to respect the wishes of parliament.

It doesn’t take a great leap of imagination to see this kind of thing happening here in the not too distant future.

Sadly it already has with Lee Rigby

I really do believe that Jihadis are at least partly driven by sexual and emotional frustration.

you’re right Binners….Dave giving his initial support to these animals in trying to topple the Syrian government was not a wise move. now that that has more or less, gone belly up these lunatics have now eyed up their next target and that is one that Blair made a complete mess of…Iraq. now they’ve secured most of Iraq and Syria they are in a position to exert their muscle and to show everyone in the region and outside of it that they mean business they are demonstrating the brutal lengths they are willing to go to in order to achieve their goals.
stepping in, literally, in Iraq and stepping in, from afar, in Syria has helped create the environment for them to take advantage of…stepping in now, literally or from afar would only escalate things further.
the only way to stop ISIS is to stop the oil they are selling from reaching their buyers, and cut off outside financial support for them from outside the region, their support from outside the region from the fundamentalists who are sending them fresh recruits to wage their war also need to be stopped. cutting off their financial and personnel supply channels and supporters is the only way to weaken them.

If we do nothing and they take control of Iraq and then Syria, do you think they will stop and swap the weapons for daffodils,

Well if they get anywhere nearer the Israeli border, near enough to launch any kind of significant attack, I think the reaction in Tel Aviv will be predictable enough. They’re not in the mood for ****ing about at the moment, and as we’ve seen, they’re pretty damn effective!!!

Let the Americans keep sending them squadrons of F-16’s and enough ammo to wipe out a sub-continent, and they’ll soon have the whole thing sorted. Its nowt to do with us

2. Desist from any action on the ground. It can no longer be considered ‘our’ war and mores the point, we cannot ‘win’ it.

Agreed. Hopefully the drones can do the heavy lifting (I presume the withdrawal from Afghanistan is largely because nowadays drones can do a lot of that work) and when necessary the boots on the ground can be filled by peoples more local.

I think you’re right it won’t be ‘won’, but maybe it can be contained, in a perpetual game of whack-a-mole.

@gonzy and @binners the West has a legitimate interest in seeing a stable supply of oil given how important that is for pretty much everything we do. I am no fan of fracking but one of the reasons the US (and UK) are perusing it is to become less or totaly non reliant upon Middle Eastern oil.

We have peaceful oil supply nations in the GCC.

ISIS has grown out of the Syrian civil war in which the West was not involved.

We could not intervene in Syria, we can intervene in Iraq

We cannot ignore the region, if we did we would sooner or later face an interruption of oil supplies or an encroachment into Europe of these radicals. I don;t think Turkey is too far away. it’s currently pacifying ISIS by allowing westerners into Syria to fight with ISIS and I understand allowing ISIS to sell oil through Turkey.

cut off the ISIS financial and personnel support from the UK

An admirable aim, but it won’t make any difference in the grand scheme of things. I think the financial and personnel support from the UK is probably a drop in the ocean compared to that coming from the likes of Saudi and the other Sunni arabian regimes.

I really do believe that Jihadis are at least partly driven by sexual and emotional frustration.

I think it’s anger. They always seem bloody angry!

The Islamic State.

Herd them all in to a big corral in the middle of the desert.

Drop the bomb. Exterminate the brutes.

(I presume the withdrawal from Afghanistan is largely because nowadays drones can do a lot of that work

@mattjg, I think Afgan withdrawal was because the US/UK public had had enough. News stories are suggesting the Taliban are taking back over, the truth is they (Afgans) have never been concquered in their history

how would that make ‘us’ any better?

had enough … of soldiers coming home in body bags and wheelchairs I think

I suspect the fight continues, but by machine

AFAIK the Taliban were not, on the whole, Afghans.

But anyway past performance does not necessarily predict the future.

Anyway I don’t know for sure, just guessing.