2019 General Election

Viewing 40 posts - 3,001 through 3,040 (of 5,305 total)
  • 2019 General Election
  • stevextc
    Member

    So what are you planning on doing to change it?

    I’m going to hold my nose and vote for anyone that keeps the NRG supporting Tory incumbent out…
    I’m reluctantly involved in local politics but frankly it’s like gargling sewage dealing with the councillors of all sides.

    It’s all horse trading … labour councillors support Tory if they can then get some motion that works for their family business… Tory councillors hold shares in companies awarded contracts because labour won’t challenge that if they get away with something else.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    We shouldn’t pay them, but we should freeze all their assets on election thereby forcing them to claim benefits through the normal channels. This would achieve two things: ensure that only people who really want to make a difference would stand; and dramatically improve the benefit system.

    Premier Icon nickc
    Subscriber

    I fear few people will actually read it

    What? CityAM? then yes, I agree with you, it’s a turgid mess of a “newspaper” that should’ve been put out it’s misery years ago.

    All those details they give in their manifesto etc are just bunch of hot air to be honest.

    Very true. However the business* you are choosing to vote for doesn’t actually have a manifesto.

    *to be very clear, they are a business, not a party. This means they have income, not donations. Income is covered under different rules from donations.
    Limited liability company filing rules allow the Brexit Party to trade past the date of the General Election and not file its accounts (dated back to 31 December 2019) until August 2020. It won’t have to declare its ‘persons of significant control’ until 21 February next year and that won’t be available for public scrutiny until 6 March 2020.
    Nige has a long history of using limited liability companies to take the piss.

    Premier Icon nickc
    Subscriber

    On corruption – there is no doubt at all that the majority of MPs are corrupt crooks

    TBH, if you want real corruption in a startling “Take your Breath Away” stylee, then (if you dare) get involved in local politics, where; counterintuitively if we are to believe your remedy works (lower pay and limited expenses) the financial rigging, blatant favouritism, and cronyism are not just rife, but expected.

    Premier Icon binners
    Subscriber

    The whole essence of the present Tory party distilled into one clip…

    Premier Icon nickc
    Subscriber

    If we’re going to get hot under the collar about the Brexit Party being a company, then let’s remind ourselves that Momentum is as well, and John Landsman is it’s corporate Head.

    Very democratic

    stevextc
    Member

    We shouldn’t pay them, but we should freeze all their assets on election thereby forcing them to claim benefits through the normal channels. This would achieve two things: ensure that only people who really want to make a difference would stand; and dramatically improve the benefit system.

    And what would motivate them to be MP’s other than an appetite for loving wallowing in bullshit and corruption?
    There are far more direct way’s to make a difference… (teaching, medicine for example).

    Daft idea, you’d only have really wealthy people running the country as was the case before 1911 when MPs first received a salary.

    Not necessarily “really wealthy”, just people who don’t need to work for a living and aren’t interested in getting any richer. People with a public service ethos perhaps?

    Although why is being really wealthy such a bad thing in itself?

    Premier Icon nickc
    Subscriber

    I suspect after that performance, like Jacob, Priti will find herself “Campaigning hard in her own constituency”

    Priti is staggeringly cold. She is simply a horrible human being.

    Premier Icon binners
    Subscriber

    Its quite something isn’t it? Given the present company she keeps, to stand out as being particularly callous and uncaring.

    tjagain
    Member

    If you hired a succesion of rubbish plumbers at a certain rate you’d soon conclude that you need to pay a bit more to get a decent one. MPs are no different.

    Execpt of course when it comes to public servants when according to the tories the amount of money we pay them is irrelevant

    The very fact others are grossly overpaid does not mean that we have to overpay mps. Paying them huge sums ( and the headline pay they get is a % of their actually remuneration in most cases) doesn’t seem to have got us a decent quality of politicians

    stevextc
    Member

    The very fact others are grossly overpaid does not mean that we have to overpay mps.

    What is overpaid? Do you think state school headteachers are overpaid or NHS doctors?

    Premier Icon lunge
    Subscriber

    Re. MP’s pay, I would double their pay but add other requirements to this such as:
    No additional income to be made in the period they are an MP or in the 6 month after they leave office. Basically, I’ll double your pay but that will be your only source of income.
    All expenses on line and not paid without receipt.
    Cap the amount they can pay assistant and/or a ban on family members working in their office
    and no doubt a few others I haven’t thought of!

    mrlebowski
    Member

    If we’re going to get hot under the collar about the Brexit Party being a company, then let’s remind ourselves that Momentum is as well, and John Landsman is it’s corporate Head.

    This should be bigger news than it is – it’s as much a threat as is the status of the BP.

    If it’s true that is?

    If you hired a succesion of rubbish plumbers at a certain rate you’d soon conclude that you need to pay a bit more to get a decent one. MPs are no different.

    Execpt of course when it comes to public servants

    Bollocks. You underpay nurses/soldiers/maths teachers you end up with a shortage of good nurses/soldiers/maths teachers. It’s an identical problem.

    sharkey
    Member

    Part of the problem is most people have no idea what other people earn like the guy on news night “calling Labour out” because he earns >£80k but he’s definitely not in the top 5% of earners – except according to the ONS you are
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-50514656

    tjagain
    Member

    Really OOB – so why then when we are short hundreds of thousnds of medical staff does the pay not go up

    Of course its nonsense – but its nonsense that is tory policy. I have actually heard them state this.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    Not necessarily “really wealthy”, just people who don’t need to work for a living

    That is “really wealthy” for most people.

    Although why is being really wealthy such a bad thing in itself?

    You could argue that there isn’t (or you could argue otherwise) but it’s highly likely that the really wealthy won’t be good at representing people who aren’t really wealthy, because they just don’t get it. As we’re seeing right now, in the other topic running on this very thread. Politicians can be told how bad thing are for the poor, but they often don’t really understand – internally they’ll invent justifications for the poor being poor – ‘they must not be working hard enough’ or ‘they must be making bad decisions’ otherwise why wouldn’t they be well off? If you’ve never had been in a really difficult position* then chances are you really don’t see how the system can **** you over when you most need help, and it’s often not your fault. Most rich or even middle class people just don’t get this, which is why most of them vote Tory – they don’t see a reason why they shouldn’t.

    If only wealthy people became politicians, then you would only get wealthy people’s interests represented (even more so than now). Which is exactly what used to happen, which is why they changed it. Even now it’s not easy to basically quit or suspend your job and take off months to campaign.

    *not that I’m claiming to have experienced true difficulty – I haven’t – but I try to listen to those who have

    5thElefant
    Member

    If you hired a succesion of rubbish plumbers at a certain rate you’d soon conclude that you need to pay a bit more to get a decent one. MPs are no different.

    I’ve found no correlation between competence and rate. If anything it’s a reverse correlation. My conclusion is generally if I want a good job I have to do it myself.

    So lets start by sacking 90% of politicians.

    stevextc
    Member

    but he’s definitely not in the top 5% of earners – except according to the ONS you are

    Being in the top x% of earners is not the same as being in the top x% of income.
    Even assuming DECLARED income people (when most of the really wealth don’t declare) are easily divided by bunching salary into broad swathes… i.e. top 50% or top 5%

    Even if you add a load of hated bankers who previously received million pound bonus’s (how many?) then they are in the same group as an MP or someone earning 80k PER HOUR if you use 5% yet most of the wealth is in the top 0.01%….

    The lower/middle and upper working classes are deluded into fighting each other.

    Premier Icon dazh
    Subscriber

    You underpay nurses/soldiers/maths teachers you end up with a shortage of good nurses/soldiers/maths teachers.

    Do you actually know many teachers/police officers/nurses etc? I do, loads of them, including many who have left their jobs. Not a single one of them did so because they were underpaid. They left because they were stressed out of their minds by being overworked, taken for granted, and essentially ***** over by a system that sees them as nothing more than automatons and doesn’t allow them to do their jobs. Those that are still in their jobs are there because of their frankly astonishing commitment to what they do. I really can assure you that in most public service professions, money is barely a consideration.

    You underpay nurses/soldiers/maths teachers you end up with a shortage of good nurses/soldiers/maths teachers.

    Do you actually know many teachers/police officers/nurses etc? I do, loads of them, including many who have left their jobs. Not a single one of them did so because they were underpaid. I really can assure you that in most public service professions, money is barely a consideration.

    Ok, I concede the point. No need to increase pay for public servants.

    tjagain
    Member

    DazH that is also a good point. I think most doctors and experienced nurses are reasonably OK with the pay. Its the other things around the job that drives folk out ie not being able to do your job properly, poor management etc

    tjagain
    Member

    OOB – what you do not understand here is the public service ethos. I want people with that public service ethos in parliament. Not the venal ******** that make up the vast majority of them

    Its something I find is very common in the right wing – the lack of understanding of the public service ethos and the “price of everything, value of nothing” attitude

    kerley
    Member

    many who have left their jobs. Not a single one of them did so because they were underpaid. They left because they were stressed out of their minds by being overworked,

    Would they have still left if they were paid £1MM per year?

    stevextc
    Member

    DazH that is also a good point. I think most doctors and experienced nurses are reasonably OK with the pay. Its the other things around the job that drives folk out ie not being able to do your job properly, poor management etc

    I’m not following…. why would they leave a job where they can at least provide a positive benefit but have to put up with some crap for one in the Sewage pit of Westminster where the entire role is dealing with crap and get paid less and they can make no positive contribution?

    Premier Icon dazh
    Subscriber

    No need to increase pay for public servants.

    It’s about basic fairness, which I would never expect you to understand. Where I work we pay junior web developers more than a senior paramedic or social worker (and the web devs continually moan about their pay!). I doubt you see that as a big problem but I do because it undermines the simple principle of value for money. As TJ says, we have a system which prioritises cost over value. As far as I’m concerned a paramedic or social worker is much more valuable to society than someone who can write (bad) javascript code.

    tjagain
    Member

    stevextc – public service ethos / wanting to improve the lot of the fellow human.

    Two things tories do not understand.,

    kerley
    Member

    https://fullfact.org/election-2019/labour-manifesto-2019/

    Looks like Labour are being pretty truthful to me.

    stevextc
    Member

    stevextc – public service ethos / wanting to improve the lot of the fellow human.

    Two things tories do not understand.,

    You seem to be missing it as well, does that make you a Tory?
    Are you trying to say a state school headteacher has no public service ethos or a NHS doctor?

    Don’t get me wrong I can see why some leave based on the barriers that are put up to prevent them improving the lot of fellow humans and all the admin crap they deal with but if that is their reason to leave then going into politics seems like the worst possible move.

    You underpay nurses/soldiers/maths teachers you end up with a shortage of good nurses/soldiers/maths teachers.

    Do you actually know many teachers/police officers/nurses etc? I do, loads of them, including many who have left their jobs. Not a single one of them did so because they were underpaid. I really can assure you that in most public service professions, money is barely a consideration

    Ok, I concede the point. No need to increase pay for public servants.

    Where I work we pay junior web developers more than a senior paramedic or social worker (and the web devs continually moan about their pay!).

    Yes, and you’re saying those pay levels have no impact on recruitment. …and I’ve conceding that point to you.

    tjagain
    Member

    Steve – I think we were at cross purposes. Yo asked why a teacher would want to go into government I thought.

    Premier Icon rone
    Subscriber

    The loony-bin Telegraph woman on QT last night. You’d think people would give up defending the Tory economic ethos of giving it to the market to deal with.

    Premier Icon binners
    Subscriber

    The Telegraph are always going to pile into labour. I think the more worrying thing was the genuine hostility to the Labour Manifesto from the studio audience.

    Areas like Bolton are absolutely nailed on ‘Labour Heartlands’. Or were. But they have been shown as also very, very Brexity. Its going to be really interesting to see what happens in these type of places. The Brexit party are standing candidates in places like this where there is a massive natural hostility to the Tories, but the electorate don’t seem to impressed with labours fence-sitting either. God knows how thats going to pan out.

    stevextc
    Member

    Steve – I think we were at cross purposes. Yo asked why a teacher would want to go into government I thought.

    Nope… I’m just saying if you are the type of person who wants to help your fellow man (or woman) there are more way’s to do it than being a politician.

    Some people can thrive in what to me would be a toxic atmosphere .. and good on them but if the crap around being a teacher, doctor etc. is what is driving you away then Westminster or even local politics will probably make you ill – seriously ill and most likely you’ll achieve NOTHING other than making yourself ill.

    Premier Icon dazh
    Subscriber

    Areas like Bolton are absolutely nailed on ‘Labour Heartlands’. Or were. But they have been shown as also very, very Brexity.

    if the working people of Bolton choose brexit over a manifesto that will change their lives then quite frankly they deserve everything they get, and I’ll go and stand next to Rayban in the ‘working class people are idiots’ camp.

    2016 was annoying, but forgivable on account of the lies and general ignorance. Not this time though. Working class people have a simple choice. If they fail once again to vote for their interests then they can expect little sympathy or understanding from anyone else.

    Premier Icon rone
    Subscriber

    Can somebody FACT CHECK inheritance tax and confirm the Tories have never cut it – since they’ve been in power (other than a standard lift of the limit by £12,000 which happened under Labour too.).

    Because I can find articles (RWM) that are saying the Tories cut it? And Labour would reverse it.

    Anyone with any solid stuff on that?

    (Not that it will impact me!)

Viewing 40 posts - 3,001 through 3,040 (of 5,305 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.