I bet they sell loads of them. Why have an ebike with one motor when you will be able to have one with 2. That must twice as better according to the marketing department
"I thought it was suggesting battery regen, not regen braking?"
You can't do one without the other without a perpetual motion machine! 😉
Ha .. I mean, the regen effect is for putting battery charge in, not actual braking effect as some posts here mentioned.
You could generate charge if the hub is fixed so rolling downhill puts energy back in. But that won't work with a tensioner.
The spec also lists shifting w/o pedalling and a reverse assist, both hint at a fixed hub or a clutched hub but the tensioner suggests something else. I don't know the hub or freewheel detail, just what's online from Eurobike news.
I mean, the regen effect is for putting battery charge in, not actual braking effect as some posts here mentioned.
They're the same thing. Harvesting energy to charge the battery causes a braking effect at the wheel. If you want to harvest enough energy to be useful, you'll basically need to have a brake dragging all the way down the hill.
much more of a disruptor of conventional OEM drivetrain sales
I think you'll find that Deore level and above drivetrains are a very small percentage of overall sales. Gearboxes are much more expensive, they might be quite profitable, but they aren't going to appear on average bikes anytime soon because of the cost.
Do we know that eCVT motors are significantly more expensive to produce than standard eBike motors? The Pinion style ones certainly are, but I've not seen anything on these dual motor approaches, and electric motors are pretty simple devices.
If they aren't then it could be competitive with entry level eBikes using the low end groupsets.
They're the same thing. Harvesting energy to charge the battery causes a braking effect at the wheel. If you want to harvest enough energy to be useful, you'll basically need to have a brake dragging all the way down the hill.
yeah, having a dragging rear end with enough resistance to acheive anything is going to be like dragging your rear brake gently.
Desirable for a cargo bike or even a commuter/tourer on long descents, but realistically useless on an MTB ridden properly as thats going to affect handling in corners, suspension performance, and any time the wheel leaves the ground it will stop rotating.
given the extra challenges of adding this to a full suspension bike with chain growth I doubt we will see this feature on our off road play things.
They're the same thing. Harvesting energy to charge the battery causes a braking effect at the wheel. If you want to harvest enough energy to be useful, you'll basically need to have a brake dragging all the way down the hill.
Sure, if the charge is more than what a hub dynamo can put out it will have more drag / brake effect. A dynamo wouldn't do much for charging. If there was a super-dynamo effect that was braking effect, as in, actually braking as we do at the rear wheel via disc brakes I'd be suprised but I don't know enough about how viable that is. It would be high input but over less time. And whether low-charge or braking-style high charge that can't happen with a tensioner. Maybe it's a possibility for e-city bikes that don't use a tensioner or anti-squat. Intrigued to know what it is in more detail anyway.
I think you'll find that Deore level and above drivetrains are a very small percentage of overall sales. Gearboxes are much more expensive, they might be quite profitable, but they aren't going to appear on average bikes anytime soon because of the cost.
I know, thing is the cost of a Bosch system plus Acera or Cues may be comparable value to the cost of an Avinox gearbox system, because Avinox see one of the few areas of the market that has decent margins (OEM parts) and their pricing will be set to take market share and volume. Their main blocker is max percentage of Chinese content in a complete bike and EU Anti-Dumping Duty.
You could generate charge if the hub is fixed so rolling downhill puts energy back in. But that won't work with a tensioner.
The spec also lists shifting w/o pedalling and a reverse assist, both hint at a fixed hub or a clutched hub but the tensioner suggests something else. I don't know the hub or freewheel detail, just what's online from Eurobike news.
Engaging regen would create a braking effect, so my assumption was that your rear brake lever would control the amount of regen applied thus the amount of braking you do. It wouldn't be on all the time, only when the lever is pressed.
Shifting w/o pedalling is achieved because the eCVT controls the 'gearing' (and is actually stepless so any notion of gear changes is simulated). This would work with any hub, not just fixed - but I reckon the regen braking will require a fixed hub.
The tensioner needs to be there because most suspension bikes have variable chainstay length through their travel. The derailleur gives / takes the chain slack up normally.
Perhaps the bigger issue with regen braking the way I assumed is the effect on suspension performance which I think someone mentioned earlier. So it'll be interesting to see what they do.
Shifting w/o pedalling is achieved because the eCVT controls the 'gearing'
I'd forgotten that bit while posting, like the Enviolo. I think the Avinox is a dual motor but same thing in that respect and how the wheel doesn't need to turn. Have any reports clarified where the regen is actually created, the hub or motor unit? There's no talk of a specific hub I can see and I was speculating when mentioning a fixed hub.
Just imagine the extra wear on the trails when using regen on an eMTB 😕
Engaging regen would create a braking effect, so my assumption was that your rear brake lever would control the amount of regen applied thus the amount of braking you do. It wouldn't be on all the time, only when the lever is pressed.
But that's going to have to interact with regular brakes as well as it's not going to be enough to control an mtb at speed. Most of the time on an mtb we're feathering the brake at the edge of grip. We're slowing right down and then wanting full acceleration from gravity. Adding anything that changes the feel sounds like a fundamentally bad idea.
I'd put proper money on there being zero utility for regen battery charging on mountain bikes.
Limiting your speed downhill on a smooth road on a cargo bike is completely different matter. I've ridden an overloaded Brompton with a trailer and something to add drag and keep the speed from creeping up would be a welcome bonus.
The spec also lists shifting w/o pedalling and a reverse assist, both hint at a fixed hub or a clutched hub but the tensioner suggests something else
Tensioner top and bottom, one is taught while the other takes up slack AND I sell this as anti-kickback at the same time. Should I get my patent application in?
Limiting your speed downhill on a smooth road on a cargo bike is completely different matter. I've ridden an overloaded Brompton with a trailer and something to add drag and keep the speed from creeping up would be a welcome bonus.
Lie a tandem drag brake. A cargo bike with a rigid frame (or URT) might mean freewheeling can switch the motor into a drag-dynamo, the brake lever could activate the drag switch/circuit at first and pulling the lever a bit more modulates fully via the disk.
Engaging regen would create a braking effect, so my assumption was that your rear brake lever would control the amount of regen applied thus the amount of braking you do. It wouldn't be on all the time, only when the lever is pressed.
But that's going to have to interact with regular brakes as well as it's not going to be enough to control an mtb at speed. Most of the time on an mtb we're feathering the brake at the edge of grip. We're slowing right down and then wanting full acceleration from gravity. Adding anything that changes the feel sounds like a fundamentally bad idea.
Regen works for cars that are much heavier going at much higher speeds, so I don't see why power would be a limiting factor. The amount it applies can be variable and still be controlled by a lever.
It's all speculation though, I've only seen them mention it in passing with no technical details so you might be right that it'll only have applications for cargo / commuter bikes at least in the first iteration.
Just imagine the extra wear on the trails when using regen on an eMTB 😕
Why would it be any more than a regular brake? If anything, given how their wheel sensor works, they could implement a sort of ABS to minimise lockups, improve traction & reduce trail wear.
I have ridden a hub motor ebike with regen braking. Old tech but even so you had 4 differnt settings for the regen brake from hardly perceptible to quite a lot. However the shop that supplied the bike said that you really got very little charge from it. Useful thing to have maybe but its not a paradigm shift
Limiting your speed downhill on a smooth road on a cargo bike is completely different matter. I've ridden an overloaded Brompton with a trailer and something to add drag and keep the speed from creeping up would be a welcome bonus.
Lie a tandem drag brake. A cargo bike with a rigid frame (or URT) might mean freewheeling can switch the motor into a drag-dynamo, the brake lever could activate the drag switch/circuit at first and pulling the lever a bit more modulates fully via the disk.
I was thinking much simpler - no interaction with the brake at all. Just set a speed on the head unit - 'engine braking' cuts in at, say, 20mph and after that it's all motor intelligence. They've got enough speed sensor data that they could spot loss of traction super quick and release.
^ That could do it, esp with a gradient tilt switch, or simply speed = 20mph+ with no pedal rotation. Actually for a cargo or city bike, any speed over the cut off since you rarely pedal them past it.
One upside of regenerative braking is in hugely lessens the chance of overheating your brakes when doing downhill on a heavily loaded cargo bike, just like how long steep downhills have signs to tell drivers to use engine braking (to avoid brake failure).
Just imagine the extra wear on the trails when using regen on an eMTB 😕
Why would it be any more than a regular brake? If anything, given how their wheel sensor works, they could implement a sort of ABS to minimise lockups, improve traction & reduce trail wear.
(a) Cos regen would be invoked whenever a bike points downhill to be effective, not just on entry to corners or when slowing riders before a technical features (and such sections are usually armoured)
(b) I suspect it will be MANY years and MANY iterations before there's a version of ABS which works "properly" on a mountain bike trail with hugely variable surfaces, angles and grip levels. Plus brief, well-timed lockups are a method of initiating turns so not sure how ABS would impact riding techniques*.
* I have a gut feeling I'd have to switch off ABS unless I was riding in Moab! Anywhere else, and I suspect it would be a liability
Regen could be controlled by the user just like any other brake. If it was on whenever the bike pointed downhill it would have to be so minimal as to make no difference what so ever to the condition of the trail.
As for ABS, I'm not saying I'd want it (if have to try it), but it would absolutely reduce trail damage..I don't think it will be that difficult to engineer with the wheel sensor they use.
(a) Cos regen would be invoked whenever a bike points downhill to be effective,
For that to be effective in charging terms it would slow you down to an extent, that won't be a popular feature, so unlikely? Or it's back to hub dynamo outputs (my dynamo charges a 1500mAh Garnin in about 1.5hrs - 5V 1Ah output).
ABS does look like a city/cargo bike feature, not something for MTB. I also expect that's the market Avinox are looking at, plus the subsidies there are greatest for clean tech business (AFAII). How many bicycles are there in Beijing?
I think b33k34 is right - regen is a city bike feature. The motor is being launched on MTB but longer-term they're looking at the Bosch + Shimano OEM city bike market more keenly than the MTB / SRAM OEM market.
How many bicycles are there in Beijing?
Damn you for your earworm.
How many bicycles are there in Beijing?
Damn you for your earworm.
Ha.. Could be worse, there are even more mopeds in Asia -
You sod.
Or on the comedy moped song theme .. genius.
"Two wheels one pair of Nike - Like Richard Hammond like when I get on the bike"
"You don't like it? Stop complaining, I'm the one getting wet when it's raining"
Full lyrics are actually on genius.com,
https://genius.com/Goldie-lookin-chain-minimoto-lyrics
OK back to CVTs.
Regen won't really work for urban bikes. You will not get anything much slowing for lights and junctions, it needs long hills to get anything worth having
ABS does look like a city/cargo bike feature, not something for MTB
I think the top model of the latest Tern GSD comes with it, there was a GCN video reviewing it where they said it's quite useful given you need to squeeze harder than you'd imagine to stop a heavily laden cargo bike (and we know from aviation that antilock shortens stopping distances as pilots would put the brakes full on knowing it won't skid).
Not sure how much use it'll be on loose surfaces though...
If you were using a drag brake to maintain a fairly low speed (kid on the bike, traffic etc), the potential energy of a loaded GSD or similar cargo bike on a reasonable hill in Bristol or Leeds could be 150kj (PE = MGH, 150kg mass and a 100m hill, or a heavier load on a smaller hill). The bit I had to get google to do was PE to Wh - it's perhaps 25Wh of charge based on 60% conversion efficiency. If correct that's 5% of a mid-size 500Wh battery from one decent descent. Locally, I regularly see GSD on 50-100m hills.
I doubt it'd be that efficient in real-world braking use but it suggests there's value in it - the hilly areas are where these bikes can have most appeal as well as shorter range, and range anxiety is a real thing with e-bikes. Anything that addresses it helps sell bikes.
"it needs long hills to get anything worth having"
We're not in the Netherlands, there's loads of hilly cities in the UK!
I'm in Sheffield. If I ever buy a commuter/cargo bike I want ALL the power and ALL the regen.
(a) Cos regen would be invoked whenever a bike points downhill to be effective,
I think b33k34 is right - regen is a city bike feature. The motor is being launched on MTB but longer-term they're looking at the Bosch + Shimano OEM city bike market more keenly than the MTB / SRAM OEM market.
Also, as someone mentioned to me this week in relation to the new Amflow 'touring' mtb - it seems irrelevant to most people in the UK, but the market for that sort of bike (and for high end commuter/city bikes) is way larger that the UK mountain bike market.
If someone can figure out a way to stop nice bikes being stolen then gearbox+motor belt drive cargo/commuter bikes with regenerative braking would be so good as urban car replacements - the regenerative braking would hugely reduce pad wear so even less maintenance.
