Rumours they are announcing one at Eurobike. Maybe why Bosch pulled out?
Could not link the YouTube video.......
Bosch pulled out ages ago based on Eurobike being in a bit of a confused state at the mo.
Avinox gearbox motor could be a problem for more than just Bosch. Avinox may be looking at the value in MTB drivetrain OEM sales and thinking it's worth going after.
Why hang the weight and expense of a drivetrain off the rear wheel of a FS MTB? A Nicolai with the Pinion MGU looks more like where much of E-MTB may be headed.
Bosch and lots of other German interests pulled out last year.
Gearbox rumour probably true. So many bikes to be more than 50% of Chinese origin if that happens. Not something we should welcome, IHMO.
Can be up to 60% China content for the EU ADD limit. That's probably the value Avinox are eyeing up, all 60% of it.
(I think the maxNOM 50% that's important is for UK-EU free trade or made in EU status?)
Sounds like it's a prototype on a long travel Commencal MtB. But Avinox product cycles are so much quicker than anyone else's I reckon it's not that far away.
the Pinion gearbox hasn't taken the market by storm so I reckon for mtb use what matters is the system weight - how much does it actually add over a conventional drivetrain by the time you've added in the chain tensioner etc. That' their prototype is on a 'gravity' bike suggests it might still be heavy.
https://urbanbike.news/en/the-new-avinox-mg-whats-behind-this-mysterious-concept-motor/?
How many times now is it that gearboxes are going to be "The Future of MTB"?
Nearly as many times as the prediction of the death of telescoping forks at least.
Absolutely not the future of mountainbikes... but some ebikes are about to separate almost totally from mountain bikes... they won't be trying to appeal to people who've grown up as mountain bikers at all.
How many times now is it that gearboxes are going to be "The Future of MTB"?
37 maybe? But motors change the viability as well as the expectations from the rider, I think. Fairly recent high pivot and heavier mainframe experience show how well a FS bike can ride when freed of trad gearing, the high pivots don't feel quite as direct either and many aren't concerned by that. So there's probably a more receptive market in general.
Absolutely not the future of mountainbikes... but some ebikes are about to separate almost totally from mountain bikes... they won't be trying to appeal to people who've grown up as mountain bikers at all.
Mountain bikes and bikers are 2 camps now. One is pedal culture - XC and trad MTBers, some things in common with road and gravel riders in that they enjoy the climbs and the exertion as much as the descents (or enough, if not as much as). The other is uplift culture - DH, most local spot sessioners 'doing runs', more in common with snowboard culture. MTB has always been culturally more about the fun and descents and the marketing always focusses on that.
If you were putting a bet on the mainstream future growth of MTB .. tbh I'd find it hard to try to convince you it was in pedalling culture. MTB is moving towards e-MTB as its mainstream imo and those who grew up with 26" bikes are getting older now. New riders coming into MTB who want to pedal are in the minority, XC as we knew it is niche.
Not saying I like it and I'm not sure motors are a good thing overall for MTB but wgas what I think, I'm not buying them. It's what I see. I don't think we gain anything by saying what is and isn't MTB either. They're the same thing whether you have a motor or not, I've had fun days on e-MTBs and I ride with people who are on them, we do the same thing .. same trails.
Edit to add, I think it's a tough time for MTB brands. Positioning yourself in all this is hard. Get on the bandwagon and compete to be an 'Avinox plus parts and ride quality rep' bike, essentially hand so much of your product planning over to them and help that big company gain a controlling influence over MTB, or sit the whole thing out and risk / accept evolving into an XC and gravel brand. Or option 3, make hardcore trail bikes for pedallers and ignore motorised MTBs. That'd be good to see, I'd buy your bike. But there are fewer and fewer people like me in the market now.
But Avinox product cycles are so much quicker than anyone else's I reckon it's not that far away.
12-18 months, I heard.
Regenerative battery charging and step-selectable CVT-like 520% range -
https://bikerumor.com/avinox-mg-concept-combined-ebike-motor-and-gearbox-at-eurobike-2026/
beat me to it /\
They beat all but Pinion to it..
Oops, and Intradrive. https://www.intradrive.co.uk/
And Gobao who look to go head to head with Avinox here -
not entirely unhappy with rear mechs but £500 electronic rear mechs and 12 speed skinny chains and cassettes for e-mtbs needs a rethink. I'd be keen but depends on money and package size. The pinion offerings were too expensive for me.
TBH it makes sense, why would you need physical gears on a ebike when you could virtualise them.
They are also playing with regenerative charging/braking.
not entirely unhappy with rear mechs but £500 electronic rear mechs and 12 speed skinny chains and cassettes for e-mtbs needs a rethink. I'd be keen but depends on money and package size. =
Very much this.
Details on the Avinox MGU, sounds like another CVT system:
Currently partnered with Canyon, Commencal, Mondraker and Forbidden with concept frames.
Looking like a 2027 release.
Something containing this will likely be my next ebike
As someone who goes through chains and cassettes at a ridiculous rate on his ebike that's mostly used for an off-road commute, I've been waiting for a good motor/gearbox solution for years!
"Edit to add, I think it's a tough time for MTB brands. Positioning yourself in all this is hard. Get on the bandwagon and compete to be an 'Avinox plus parts and ride quality rep' bike, essentially hand so much of your product planning over to them and help that big company gain a controlling influence over MTB, or sit the whole thing out and risk / accept evolving into an XC and gravel brand. Or option 3, make hardcore trail bikes for pedallers and ignore motorised MTBs. That'd be good to see, I'd buy your bike. But there are fewer and fewer people like me in the market now. "
I totally agree. I think gravel/XC/downcountry will continue to be mostly non-motorised, and DH too, but the realm from 140-180mm travel will become mostly ebikes. As much as I like owning an ebike I prefer the pacing and mindset of pedalling uphill unpowered - if I'm not using a lot of power on the ebike then I'd rather use my normal bike and if I am using lots of ebike power then the uphills are manic and not always in a good way.
The ebike comes into its own for making my very steep commute a lot more fun / less unpleasant and making lapping steep stuff much more fun.
How many times now is it that gearboxes are going to be "The Future of MTB"?
Nearly as many times as the prediction of the death of telescoping forks at least.
Gearboxes were a tough sell on regular bikes (I had a Pinion 18) - the weight was in the right place (and the suspension felt amazing as a result) BUT it was a good chunk of weight heavier than a regular drivetrain (especially since the early 1x drivetrains were lighter than what had gone before), it was expensive and at a time when geometry was still improving every year you had a lot of expensive part attached to a devalued frame when you wanted your next bike. Also, people were very resistant to twist shifters and the different shifting feel (you had to unload at a different point to a derailleur)
On e bikes the weight penalty mostly disappears (a lot of gearbox weight is the case and you've already got that with the motor) and is less material (the overall bike weight is heavier and different motors/batteries etc are varying in weight by more than the gearbox will add. Electric shifting is pretty standard so button shifts, the power source is there, and the tech can automatically deal with the shifting point/easing the power between gears etc. People are already resigned to horrific depreciation and a lot of value integrated to frame and not transferrable! And e bikes eat conventional drivetrains quickly. The cost penalty will likely have gone as well - conventional gearings got a lot more expensive in recent years, especially with electronic stuff becoming widespread.
Pinion didn't seem to get the motor feel right based on the reviews I've seen and there isn't that much choice of bike. The Nicolai looks great but weighs a ton. The Haibike looks a bit lighter (and I was planning to test ride one).
Avinox have the best chance of getting it right - the've already won the motor battle.
...
Edit to add, I think it's a tough time for MTB brands. Positioning yourself in all this is hard. Get on the bandwagon and compete to be an 'Avinox plus parts and ride quality rep' bike, essentially hand so much of your product planning over to them and help that big company gain a controlling influence over MTB
I've been amazed at the premium and cachet some manufacturers have managed to retain for many years when the only thing that *really* set their bikes apart was a status badge on the downtube - snobbery basically.
If you look at a Santa Cruz megatower the only bit that's from them is the frame - a £3k value when you take the shock off (and the frame-only price is probably artificially high). So at the bottom end they're about half the bike value, at the top end about a third. For any less premium manufacturers that balance is worse (because it's only the frame that's cheaper).
Geometry stopped being a differentiator about 5 years ago - differences are marginal between brands. Horst Link came out in 86, and has been out of patent since 2013. Suspension design doesn't set anyone apart any more (and it's clear a lot of the other designs were to avoid paying fees rather that because they were superior).
A brand like Nicolai still standsout - they actually make their own bikes and they have a properly different aesthetic. Most of the rest are coming out of the same few factories in Taiwan. Specialized set themselves apart with their own motor in the e bike market but that's just bitten them as their current offering looks big and heavy compared Avinox (+700g?) and while they used to have the nicest integration/screens etc Avinox and Bosch are both probably better now. Orbea are doing interesting stuff with their own integration, controls and motor tunes/profiles.
the one thing I missed was the efficiency losses. For some people that a was a red line on bikes without a motor. Now it's just potentially the loss of a bit of range, but Avinox's stand seems to be claiming that the MG is more efficient than a 1x set up at at the extremes which is likely when a rider would notice it most. And even if it was, say, 5% less efficient the impact on range wouldn't really be material - if you got 1200m vert instead of 1250 so what?
So, will all of this integrated motor/gearbox be home serviceable? Or are you fxxked when water gets in the electronics and kills everything?
At least with external drivetrains, it's highly unlikely you'll kill everything in one crash...
I think that is now 3 eCVT (or similar) mgu's that have been announced now? There was one last year, and 2 at Eurobike this year. Avinox already have the customer / industry mindshare advantage so the others will have to move quickly for international markets.
An MGU of some form is definitely where I think eBikes are heading as a standard, as long as they can get the feel right and it doesn't have a disconnected pedal action.
As for the regenerative braking, I'm assuming this will be by removing the freehub in the wheel, and modifying the MGU freehub so that it can be used for regen. The challenge again here I think will be level feel because it'd be electronic rather than hydraulic and a mismatch between front & rear brakes would be odd.
@b33k34 - bingo.
Brands are amalgamators of OEM parts who make a frame to hang that collection on. If your frame doesn't stand out for good reasons or the package doesn't offer great value then you're not going to be around for long. There are more brands in the market than the market size can support, I think that's being accepted - it was looking that way a long time ago but it's more pressured now.
The other issue is that the margins available from parts amalgamation are thin Vs the costs to support the R+D to make a truly stand-out frame plus all the support needed to make a bike company function. So the future is vertical integration, taking layers of margin out. That's the future need of the bike industry and Avinox, Gobao, Chinese tech business in general is set up to do that and supported by the government to do it.
Fair to say that there's some concern in how fast things may change for many bike brands and the public release of potentially more viable MGUs have really highlighted it. It was only 2-3 months ago that 60 (60!) brands released new Avinox bikes.
The brands have few options but to do what Commencal and Mondraker have done, get close the the leading motor brand(s). In turn, accelerating the mechanism of many brand's downfall while hoping they will be one of the reduced number left. There will be a fair few left as I believe the riding culture in Europe and US is the only defence or relevance, but it's a strong enough brand benefit to keep some going. Basically, marketing your credibility becomes vital otherwise the Chinese brands will take a proven sus layout and geometry and undercut you 30% with the same spec. That's what the whole Chinese system is based on and fair dues, it works, they've been playing the smart long term game and getting very good at it while we've been too keen on cheap goods to care about where we end up. Getting a bit 'bigger picture' than e-MTBs maybe but it's all part of the same global shift.
So, will all of this integrated motor/gearbox be home serviceable? Or are you fxxked when water gets in the electronics and killseverything?
Doesn't stop us buying cars? The point is to build them to resist the use. That's been poorly done in the past but I'd be sure it's at the top of the engineering spec now - warranty kills profit, low service or durability rep slow sales and development. Chinese brands are subsidised on volume in a way that is cyclic/flywheel. Avinox will have prioritised this I expect - learning from other brand's mistakes.
Specialized set themselves apart with their own motor in the e bike market but that's just bitten them as their current offering looks big and heavy compared Avinox (+700g?) and while they used to have the nicest integration/screens etc Avinox and Bosch are both probably better now.
I heard Spesh were working with Gobau on a new motor - nothing known for sure but they are big enough to use all the ability of the best suppliers, so this is likely just where they look to be now rather than a longer term position.
End game is Chinese (owned) bike brands dominating the market. Every brand jumping on the Avinox train is helping to seal its own demise.
On regenerative breaking... that's the path to getting the hubs tied into the system... once that's in place it'll be motor, "gears", wheels, brakes all from one supplier in China.
The traditional rear mech and cassette cant carry on forever with more powerful Ebikes, I've done the Bosch update and can quite easily plow up a climb in the bottom 3 cogs if i want, the cassette teeth are just not going to last if I do that. I've used linkglide for a while and its a bit better lasting and works very well but not enough to buy new cassette, mech and shifter for a new bike already with HG+ / Eagle. I'm buying new lower cogs & chain about every 6 months and new cassette / 2 chains on rotation every 12 months.
Electronic mechs seem wonderful to use but F me they are eye wateringly expensive and are huge dangly things asking to be smashed into things (to be fair my fiends with them haven't smashed one yet iirc)
I assume Bosch, Shimano and others are working on gearboxes but the aggressive strategy of the Chinese firms means they are speeding off into the future and I do think that is gearboxes for most EBikes, and maybe trickle down efficiency savings could be used in future pedal only bikes.
How will regenerative braking work with a chain tensioner?
It the lower half of the chain is suddenly in tension due to regen that tensioner will be toast.
Is it incompatible with full sus and chain tensioner?
As for the regenerative braking, I'm assuming this will be by removing the freehub in the wheel, and modifying the MGU freehub so that it can be used for regen. The challenge again here I think will be level feel because it'd be electronic rather than hydraulic and a mismatch between front & rear brakes would be odd.
Theres never going to be any significant battery charging from regen - I don't think that's really for mtb. Some form of 'engine braking' on a heavy cargo bike going downhill might be really useful though (I was intrigued riding a Lime electric scooter than they don't freewheel and pick up speed downhill - same speed down as up).
How will regenerative braking work with a chain tensioner?
In the hub.
How will regenerative braking work with a chain tensioner?
It the lower half of the chain is suddenly in tension due to regen that tensioner will be toast.
Is it incompatible with full sus and chain tensioner?
that's a good point - hadn't clocked that. Nicolai I think used to have a bike that had a continuously moving chain. I thought a fixed rear hub could be used on Pinion but quick search says not. Maybe it was the Nucleon where they'd centrally mounted a Rohloff before gearboxes existed.
Wouldn't be an issue on a bike without suspension and sliding dropouts - like a cargo bike.
“Wouldn't be an issue on a bike without suspension and sliding dropouts - like a cargo bike.”
I’m sure that’s what it’s for. I can’t see regenerative braking giving you enough control on a MTB where the surface is slippery, the front:rear weighting varies hugely with ground angle and rider body position, and there’s no anti-lock etc electronics as on a car.
That earlier point about the Lime scooter - regenerative braking would be a really good safety feature for e-commuters and e-cargo bikes on shared paths or cycle paths on pavements if it keeps the max downhill speed down by automatically engaging at say 20mph.
How will regenerative braking work with a chain tensioner?
It the lower half of the chain is suddenly in tension due to regen that tensioner will be toast.
Is it incompatible with full sus and chain tensioner?
The range of motion in a tensioner on an MGU is pretty small compared to a rear mech so would it really be an sisue?
As for the amount of gain from it in terms of battery range, I've no idea and it might be nothing but a gimmick for MTBs, but I'm interested in seeing the numbers for typical winch & plummet style rides.
They beat all but Pinion to it..
Yeah but Pinion havent managed to win a race yt have they, where races have been won in the past with bikes that couldnt even be pedalled. What does that tell you !!?!
I thought it was suggesting battery regen, not regen braking?
They beat all but Pinion to it..
Yeah but Pinion havent managed to win a race yt have they, where races have been won in the past with bikes that couldnt even be pedalled. What does that tell you !!?!
That they don't sponsor the fastest rides?
It's the motor aspect that changes this, and Pinions are actual gearboxes. Pedal-only gearboxes and IGHs do have a bit more drag, no doubt.
They beat all but Pinion to it..
Yeah but Pinion havent managed to win a race yt have they, where races have been won in the past with bikes that couldnt even be pedalled. What does that tell you !!?!
They won the first round of EDR last year.
I know this has come out for MTBs but surely an integrated motor/gearbox has huge potential for city/cargo bikes?
Yes, much more potential. And much more of a disruptor of conventional OEM drivetrain sales (Europe/city bike volumes).
"I thought it was suggesting battery regen, not regen braking?"
You can't do one without the other without a perpetual motion machine! 😉
much more of a disruptor of conventional OEM drivetrain sales
I think you'll find that Deore level and above drivetrains are a very small percentage of overall sales. Gearboxes are much more expensive, they might be quite profitable, but they aren't going to appear on average bikes anytime soon because of the cost.
