There must come a point where the available power is, to quote Rolls Royce, "sufficient".
IMO it's similar to people who obsess about range when looking at EVs when most EV drivers agree that more than about 250-300 miles is pretty pointless. It just adds weight that you have to drag around the rest of the time which detracts from the overall driving experience.
Same with power on ebikes - why does anyone regularly need the same sort of power that only the likes of Pogacar can generate for a sprint. Yeah you can do steeper or trickier climbs but that's as much about controlled power delivery as the absolute number.
So whatever "sufficient" power is for an ebike (and I think we're already there) let's stop being impressed by big power numbers and focus on how the thing actually rides. I'd rather ebike motors started getting smaller, lighter, quieter, more efficient, more reliable and (even) more natural feeling than adding power for the sake of it.
“Some people need more assistance than others, therefore more power is always better… and we’re not doing it for headline numbers to win market share, honest.”
"Avinox systems comply fully with all applicable speed regulations, and we strongly support the implementation and enforcement of speed limits. That means our high power output is not designed to make riders go faster than allowed."
So have Avinox now made it impossible to defeat the built-in speed limiter? Last I heard you just needed to connect via a VPN and tell it you were in New Zealand to remove the speed-based power cut-off entirely.
Riders should be able to use as much power as the manufacturers can provide - subject to the vehicle being suitably classed and licensed/insured/taxed accordingly. That will inevitably place restrictions on where the vehicle can be used too.
Seriously, if you want an electric motorbike, just buy one and accept the restrictions and laws that go with it.
"Whether it is clearing a rocky ledge, climbing a steep incline, or helping a less experienced rider maintain momentum, more power can make mountain biking both easier and safer."
Will Avinox be making jetpacks to make rock climbing both "easier and safer"?
Funnily enough, the points under "Beyond Power: The Full Avinox Advantage" were the reasons I ordered one of the new PRs. I could've gone for a PX if it was for the power. My current bike has easily enough power. It'll be fascinating to find out how the range improves by dialling down the power in the app. Can't wait!
"Avinox systems comply fully with all applicable speed regulations, and we strongly support the implementation and enforcement of speed limits. That means our high power output is not designed to make riders go faster than allowed."
This is the bit I can't quite work out with Avinox and the legality, in the UK at least, of their system.
Happy to be corrected but in the UK isn't it pedal assist up to 15.5mph AND max continuous power output of 250W?
So, technically many of their bikes are not legal, at least for road use and no doubt a fair amount of 'public' land.
Note I don't really care of a particular bike is legal or not however if they're selling it as a massive market product I'd have thought they would be...
Reads like ChatGPT output. 82 - 92% AI written apparently depending on which checker I used.
AND max continuous power output of 250W?
So, technically many of their bikes are not legal, at least for road use and no doubt a fair amount of 'public' land.
Continuous Rated power and Peak power are different as far as testing and EN15194 are concerned. At some point a lab in Germany will get some funding to run tests that show how long peak power (or, simple >250W) is able to be produced and compare that to the definition of 'continuous' in the test.
The speed cap is most relevant, But I think we need a type/class power regulation within the EPAC regs. There is an E-MTB standard which is just a copy of EN15194 for the electronic parts, and that might be good to change to set a different power limit on E-MTBs Vs load carrying transport. 1500W cargo bike, yes, fine. E-MTB? Up for debate.
I don't agree with Bosch's position fully, but I expect the Avinox approach could be the one to cause problems for some aspects of MTB.
It wouldn't be able to be sold in the UK if it wasn't fully legal, but that's the same for probably every e-bike except gen1 Spesh KSL & LSL which are 250 W max not just continuous, and the new Orbea thing (Rallon?) maybe. I believe there's also some debate about what 250 W continuous power actually means.
I have an M2S in my Druid E. The motor was not the deciding factor, rather the fact it's a shorter (not short) travel bike than my previous KSL that rides exceptionally well and just happens to have 1.75 BHP.
It was the best option for me; no stupid cable routing (looking at Santa Cruz here - I want to run my rear brake into the RHS of the frame), and I knew roughly when it would be available (was considering a Norco thing with a Bosch Gen 5 but weren't available when I put my deposit down in October 2025) and more importantly, I could get it as a frame only.
It's mint blatting up straight fire roads etc. on the way to the top of the hill to go back down again, but 1300 W and 130 Nm are totally pointless/dangerous anywhere else. Even on the flat all I do is get to 15.5 mph more quickly just to bounce off the limiter.
I have boost turned off, turbo is 1000 W & 100 Nm, and I use it mainly in eco (250 W & 30 Nm) and auto (600w, 60 Nm). I don't get 1500 W & 150 Nm as I don't have the fancy 700 Wh battery.
FWIW, mine isn't and won't be derestricted - I'd be happy for that loophole to be slammed shut, whether it's VPN, chipping, speedi boxes or whatever.
Seriously, if you want an electric motorbike, just buy one and accept the restrictions and laws that go with it.
Nah, balaclavas make me itchy
I have boost turned off, turbo is 1000 W & 100 Nm, and I use it mainly in eco (250 W & 30 Nm) and auto (600w, 60 Nm). I don't get 1500 W & 150 Nm as I don't have the fancy 700 Wh battery
This is the bit I'm not clear on. Surely if in turbo it puts out 1000W continuous then it's not legal as it can be switched into and left in that mode?
Even if that's peak then I'd be surprised if the continuous rating was only 250W in turbo.
To be honest it all needs tidying up in terms of the power output etc.
As for them not being sold if they're not legal. Plenty of stuff is legal to sell but not legal to own (or more accurately when it comes to ebikes, use) in certain situations.
The child's ebike conversion isn't legal, I'm well aware of that, but there was no issue buying it from a bona fide UK based shop.
Setting turbo to 1000 W sets it to 1000 W peak. Not continuous.
Like I said, literally nearly every e-bike puts out more than 250 W peak, regardless of the motor with a couple of exceptions. However, all EPAC meet the EPAC requirements on continuous power. Whether that is clear or not and how it's measured should be the discussion.
Setting turbo to 1000 W sets it to 1000 W peak. Not continuous.
..
Like I said, literally nearly every e-bike puts out more than 250 W peak, regardless of the motor with a couple of exceptions. However, all EPAC meet the EPAC requirements on continuous power. Whether that is clear or not and how it's measured should be the discussion.
Yep agree and yes, I'm vaguely familiar with the peak/continuous bit but learning all the time.
I'm still willing to bet that, whilst a lot of these bikes notionally comply with the regs, they are capable of putting out more than 250W of power for longer than simply 'peak'.
But as you say, that is what (if anything) needs looking at a bit more and I agree with your earlier point that the speed limit is more important than the power output...
I rode a pre production prototype of the first generation Amflow bikes. It was not restricted which became abundantly clear as I flew up a 20 to 25% road climb at full gas like it was flat. After I got over the rush of blimey, that was quick, I didn't feel any great desire to repeat it.
Human nature is such that there are riders who will happily derestrict their motors in their desire to go as fast as possible. Therein lies the potential problem. How many riders does it take not playing by the rules for it to become a significant issue? If you look at all the Deliveroo, Just Eat and Uber Eats riders round Glasgow on throttle control e bikes, they are happy to disregard the law and are apparently untroubled by the consequences when they get lifted by Police Scotland.
The concern comes in whether we get to a point where there is a critical mass of riders who ride derestricted, high power e bikes on shared use trails and other users end up getting hurt. Could trail access come under threat? Possibly. I just don't know.
let them make as powerful motors as they want then let the law mark them as motorcycles in return. hans rey said it best in his letter to e bike manufacturers.
For balance I have very rarely ridden trail centres since I got ridden into at Winlater on a climb. Presumably I was going to slowly.
The bloke was on an e-bike and needed to grow a brain.
The problem is dicks on e-bikes are getting harder to avoid as people seem to not enjoy cycling uphill. If you make e-bikes faster or more powerful it will only exacerbate the problems.
It wouldn't be able to be sold in the UK if it wasn't fully legal
Ahahahahahahaaaa.....
Sorry, excuse me while I control the stitch in my side. Where do you live, 1992? Next you'll be telling me all kids' toys are rigorously controlled by strictly enforced safety standards.
All of the legal restrictions are dependent upon the place of use, not the ownership. If you have (access to) private land then they are perfectly legal.
For balance I have very rarely ridden trail centres since I got ridden into at Winlater on a climb. Presumably I was going to slowly.
Sorry that happened to you. There's no excuse for that, whether uphill or down, e-bike or not
Yup. He was a prick and probably still is in other aspects of his life.
It was noticeable at Boltby at weekend that some of the Amflow riders were going up hill far quicker than any of the other ebike riders.
There is no debate these this break the intention of the law. The 250 W continuous power test is 20 minutes, but the legislators misunderstood that the test requires a minimum, and that a more powerful motor can still pass it.
This German site does very thorough testing. For the previous gen avinox M1 here:
EBIKE-MTB.COM It can produce around three times the limit for 20 minutes. Clearly against the intention of the poorly drafted regulation.
I get that thrashing up everything in sight like a rocket must be fun on an ebike but taking the old Chicksands xc trails (not the bike park) as an example, the trails are trashed and new lines crossing the hillsides are all over the place. How long before the land owners take exception to the damage?
The future of this for me is not power, it's lower weight and efficiency. Apply all this magical power (which is more than sufficient) into a smaller package, lighter battery, more efficient support when needed and not when not called for, perhaps even cost and maintenance reduction.
I also can see some 'impossible lines' on local hills and woods forming. And I also still enjoy the challenge and increased physical activity of doing it without assistance. And the cost of these things also excludes at the moment.
eBikes absolutely do have a place.
let them make as powerful motors as they want then let the law mark them as motorcycles in return. hans rey said it best in his letter to e bike manufacturers.
...and then a few weeks after his letter, his bosses at Bosch upped the power and torque of the Gen 5 to compete with Avinox.
I agree with matt_outandabout in that lower weight, higher efficiency, a smaller package and lighter battery is where things should be heading. Ebike batteries are "borrowed" tech though, bike companies just repackage 21700 cells made for other industries so I don't think we'll see any advancements in the near future.
The 250 W continuous power test is 20 minutes,
Actually it's not, it's a test in an EN standard for all electric motors and the CRP test is about heat stability, +/-2 dec C per hour max when run at a certain level. If it can run at a stable level for over an hour it's no suprise that much more power can be put out for 5-20 mins etc. I'd agree this might seem unsuitable for the use here and the e-bike standard could be improved. However the EN standard for e-bikes is intended for bike companies who are mostly component re-sellers, the motor brands are working to the more detailed motor regs. The e-bike standard just says 'make sure the fitted motor meets the EN motor specs at 250W max CRP'. And that's where Bosch chipped in, to say the the standard should be re-written, max output peak should be capped.
Could trail access come under threat? Possibly. I just don't know.
I don't either, and RE this point generally, I don't want to sound like I don't care about this bc I do, but.. A lot of the trails I ride are deer tracks, footpaths etc. I've never had a right to ride them and it's been that way for almost 40 years. I tend to ride solo, or with 1 or 2 others max, Rule #1 around other trail users and we don't dig or build in the woods. No-one cares what we do, it doesn't matter to anyone else, it'll be free to carry on whatever.
In all honesty, I don't think e-MTBs will change access for any of my riding. And regular bikes access on bridleways isn't going to change either.
Realising it's different in the US, but what trail access here do we think a pedal-activated 2000W MX bike that might be the Avinox 2028 model would risk? It won't be private bike parks, might it be trail centres?
I can see how e-bikes might leave new visible lines in places but unpermitted trail building has always been a risk to MTB's image and goodwill, it's been going on a long time and hasn't caused any real access issues, just some PR issues.
Having been totally happy with the 565 watts and 90Nm of my Specialized Brose motors, riding with the latest Bosch motors (never mind Avinox) is becoming increasingly annoying - that's before my mate even did the update. It only really becomes apparent uphill and I don't know why he can't just ride at the speed of others, but hey ho - I've stopped rinsing it trying to keep up with him, he just has to wait at the top
riding with the latest Bosch motors (never mind Avinox) is becoming increasingly annoying - that's before my mate even did the update. It only really becomes apparent uphill and I don't know why he can't just ride at the speed of others, but hey ho - I've stopped rinsing it trying to keep up with him, he just has to wait at the top
Then - "E-MTBs level up riding"
Now - the group is no more evenly paced than they were in 2005.
But instead of pace being about fitness that only cost us time and energy to gain, now it's based on something that can be packaged up and sold to us. Gotta love late stage capitalism.
I just get the feeling this power race will inevitably end in tears sometime with restrictions on bike access to trails. The vast majority of e-bike riders - Avinox or otherwise - are sensible and don't ride like dicks, it'll be the tiny minority that spoil it for us all.
I'm with others who've posted already in that I'd rather see improved reliability, lower weight and increased efficiency, i.e. the good bits of an e-bike but in a lighter package. No interest whatsoever in the MOAR POWERRRRRR approach.
Edit: my 4,000th STW post and I'm moaning about e-bikes FFS 😆
I also can see some 'impossible lines' on local hills and woods forming.
That's been happening for decades - there are plenty of cheeky downhill sections been created by skilled riders that I wouldn't dare attempt! But eBikes have definitely added the uphill equivalent already.... which is worse?
And I also still enjoy the challenge and increased physical activity of doing it without assistance
Me too. Most definitely. Until I couldn't enjoy it.
I agree with matt_outandabout in that lower weight, higher efficiency, a smaller package and lighter battery is where thingsshouldbe heading. Ebike batteries are "borrowed" tech though, bike companies just repackage 21700 cells made for other industries so I don't think we'll see any advancements in the near future.
I wouldn't (would? it's a double negative) bet on it. Battery technology is developing rapidly, and there's aspects of batteries that are current production that are bottlenecked by development elsewhere so we're using only a fraction of what the materials are capable of. Figure out those solutions and you're unlocking a lot of technological potential. Certainly the Wh/kg of the batteries will go up a lot more in the next few years than I suspect motors will manage.
