In this episode of the Singletrack Podcast we have a Mrs Merton-style 'heated debate' about eeb numbers.
A few comments .....
Benji sounds muffled, got a cold? bad mic setup?
50+% of human communication is about body language/facial expression, a lot more work I would assume but a video podcast is much better.
If you are talking numbers have them in front of you, quite a few "... I thinks it's this ... " type comments.
If you are are having to lift a heavy e-bike, actually any bike, over a gate on a trail its probably a footpath and you you shouldn't be riding it.
EMBN have covered all aspects of the Amflow on their website with videos and real world tests, ok they are partly sponsored by Amflow, but given my experience of them covering other bikes/brands/MTB related issues, I trust what they say.
Trail Bikes should just get in the sea. - what does that even mean??
A few comments …..
Benji sounds muffled, got a cold? bad mic setup?
Agreed. I've come to assume that any STW of I listen to will be a bit like earwigging two blokes chatting in a pub.
50+% of human communication is about body language/facial expression, a lot more work I would assume but a video podcast is much better.
I can't watch a pod whilst doing something less interesting. Ride Companion do some nice shorts, but watching some guys sit about talking bikes for over an hour? No thanks.
If you are talking numbers have them in front of you, quite a few “… I thinks it’s this … ” type comments.
Agreed.
If you are are having to lift a heavy e-bike, actually any bike, over a gate on a trail its probably a footpath and you you shouldn’t be riding it.
Yeah but....
EMBN have covered all aspects of the Amflow on their website with videos and real world tests, ok they are partly sponsored by Amflow, but given my experience of them covering other bikes/brands/MTB related issues, I trust what they say.
How could you possibly trust, in isolation, a review of a product in sponsored content?
Trail Bikes should just get in the sea. – what does that even mean??
Benji is wrong. The middle ground is where it's at, Tony Blair just said as much. Oh. Hang on...
A few comments .....
Benji sounds muffled, got a cold? bad mic setup?
50+% of human communication is about body language/facial expression, a lot more work I would assume but a video podcast is much better.
If you are talking numbers have them in front of you, quite a few "... I thinks it's this ... " type comments.
If you are are having to lift a heavy e-bike, actually any bike, over a gate on a trail its probably a footpath and you you shouldn't be riding it.
EMBN have covered all aspects of the Amflow on their website with videos and real world tests, ok they are partly sponsored by Amflow, but given my experience of them covering other bikes/brands/MTB related issues, I trust what they say.
Trail Bikes should just get in the sea. - what does that even mean??
Fair play to you for listening to it, but honestly it sounds like you're not the target market - you don't understand audio as a medium, you seem unfamiliar with the concept of podcasts (2 men in a shed wittering, normally), you don't understand trail as a type of bike, you're offended by gates on rides and you prefer content sponsored by Amflow for opinions of Amflow.
You only riding in England @gazzab1955?
Plenty places that aren't footpaths that need a hoik over a gate...
My main ebike purchasing criterion was whether I could comfortably lift it over a fence. Having lived with an SL bike for nigh on 2 years now, that would still be the major thing for me (including hike a bike). I'm hoping solid state batteries cause a step change (reduction) in ebike weight to make lifting and hike a bike doable with decent range.
One of my ebikes is 28kg and I've not encounterd an obstacle I've struggled too much with (apart from the stile at the bottom of Black Rocks Gully down to the canal - locals will know and the farmer is a wee scamp who dislikes bikes!) - get stronger you bunch of wimps 😉
Anyway, live in the Derbyshire Dales and you're riding footpaths, or you're missing a lot/most of the good stuff. Just be courteous and considerate is my mantra
One of my ebikes is 28kg and I've not encounterd an obstacle I've struggled too much with
Kudos to you, my Privateer is 26.3kg and I endlessly bitch about its weight. Next ebike will be at least a couple of kg lighter, for handling reasons more than stiles and gates.
I’m fine with the EP801 power, happy to have more but probably won’t use it
I’ll try to listen to the podcast when it gets onto apple
Only too powerful a force against normal bikes. Rare to see people of unassisted bikes these days.
I had a play last night with the updated power on my bosch equipped bike. I will admit my climbing technique is more akin to an eplipetic sloth than Tom Piddcock so take my perspective as you see fit.
The power was bordering on ridiculous. It was a fight, getting pulled between trying to keep the front wheel down or the back end from wheel spinning like a 16 year old in his new Corsa.
On the less steep it got me to the speed cutoff in no time, for sure makes short work of the dull climbs, but topped out the limit rapidly. It also ripped through my battery in less than an hour I'd smashed 50% of my juice.
A constant of late I see in the Cube groups on FB is questions asking how to circumvent the speed limit, which I think is a natural evolution of the extra power. It's like having a speed limited Ferrari for some I imagine. Not that I condone it, I think it's sadly par for the course and understandably why some would have concerns on what it could lead to.
For me the bike will stay topped out at 85-100nm, and that's across the few modes I use. I can't be arsed burning through drivetrains like lunatic. Just my take on my usage, other opinions exist.
I listened to the podcast the other day despite being towards the ‘anti-e-bike’ end of the scale.
It is interesting to hear e-converts views and opinions on eeebs.
What I found most interesting is Benji’s idea that there’s no consequences or impacts of having a higher powered e-bike but also that it can manage to remove too much of the challenge/effort (or at least that’s what I understood),
I kinda feel like you can’t have it both ways, getting the ‘best’ version of a labour saving device and then complain that it removed too much labour from the activity… Wasn’t that the point?
It does also feel like e-bikes are soaking up cycling media bandwidth now though (or maybe I need to find different media). I get that company’s are pushing them hard now, but there is much more to MTBs than DJI’s latest e-bike motor.
The little debate over what to call “unassisted” bikes was funny, they’re just bikes/MTBs they came first, if you want to describe the newer leccy versions prefix them with an ‘e’ . Anyone using “acoustic” or other descriptors need to know it does make you sound like a bit of a bellend… soz 😘
The power was bordering on ridiculous. It was a fight, getting pulled between trying to keep the front wheel down or the back end from wheel spinning like a 16 year old in his new Corsa.
I'm not a Bosch user, but I think if you set dynamic assist (or something or other) to -1, you get traction control. You'd have to research it to be 100% certain though
It does also feel like e-bikes are soaking up cycling media bandwidth now though (or maybe I need to find different media). I get that company’s are pushing them hard now, but there is much more to MTBs than DJI’s latest e-bike motor.
I'd agree with that. The latest Avinox is breathlessly covered in immense detail despite not being really of interest or relevant to a large swathe of the population - it feels in some ways a bit like AI being covered in huge detail by every mainstream outlet.
The latest Avinox is breathlessly covered in immense detail despite not being really of interest or relevant to a large swathe of the population
I think you may be confusing large swathes of STW forum users with large swathes the general MTB buying public.
I'm as happy to read about normal MTB's as much as eMTB's, but like it or not, eMTB's are for the majority now
I think you may be confusing large swathes of STW forum users with large swathes the general MTB buying public.
I'm as happy to read about normal MTB's as much as eMTB's, but like it or not, eMTB's are for the majority now
I think you're right. I was out yesterday around Llangollen with my daughter and stopped where three chaps in their 60s in Haibikes had stopped. They asked all sorts of questions about my bike, who made it, what motor did it have, what size battery was it, etc. For the record I have a Specialized Levo Gen 2 so about as common as it gets for brand recognition. They also said without eBikes for them the other option was stay at home.
The power was bordering on ridiculous. It was a fight, getting pulled between trying to keep the front wheel down or the back end from wheel spinning like a 16 year old in his new Corsa.
I'm not a Bosch user, but I think if you set dynamic assist (or something or other) to -1, you get traction control. You'd have to research it to be 100% certain though
Yeah, I'm playing about to find the best settings. Lots of word of mouth advice, but not much of actual use.
Bosch are pretty useless at explaining exactly what tweaking the settings will do or even what the difference between modes is 🤔
One of my ebikes is 28kg and I've not encounterd an obstacle I've struggled too much with
It's not really the outright weight tbf, more the cussed awkward shape of the things. It's much easier to, say, manhandle a 28kg kettlebell than the same mass in the shape of a mountain bike with bloody great swivelling handlebars, wheels, fat tubes that are hard to grip etc.
I kinda feel like you can’t have it both ways, getting the ‘best’ version of a labour saving device and then complain that it removed too much labour from the activity… Wasn’t that the point?
It always makes me laugh when people start arguing that e-bikes are fantastic for building fitness when they exist specifically to reduce effort. I know 'fitness' is more nuanced than simply working as hard as you can, but I don't really get why some people can't simply accept that they're fun and fast because they're assisted, but also feel the need to insist that they're somehow working really, really hard at the same time, much harder than they would work without assistance etc.
And yes, I get that you can ride zone 2 up steep hills if that's your bag or turn the motor off and simply pedal a very heavy mountain bike around, which seems like a peculiarly perverse thing to do.
In other news: journos are great at being brainwashed by an industry that just wants to sell more and more new stuff and love new shiny things partly because they're simply intrinsically more interesting than old shiny things. [don't ask how I know etc].
At what power should you just accept the obvious and buy a Sur Ron. The whole massive power, but it's just an e-bike thing and different thing is a farce.
There is a real issue in that the vast majority of e-bikes I see are for commuting, and where I live on mixed paths, but they're sharing legislation with e-MTB's that are basically pushing the envelope of that legislation as far as possible ( till it breaks)
"In other news: journos are great at being brainwashed by an industry that just wants to sell more and more new stuff and love new shiny things partly because they're simply intrinsically more interesting than old shiny things. [don't ask how I know etc]."
In other other news, journos probably (almost certainly) have reader data which drives what stories are written. If nobody read about and engaged with DJI stories, I suspect they wouldn't write stories about DJI motors... Conversely, if their data suggested traffic figures on DJI stories were higher than average, they'd probably write more stories about DJI motors 🤷♂️
The second part, about new things being more interesting, is a no-brainer!
If nobody read about and engaged with DJI stories, I suspect they wouldn't write stories about DJI motors... Conversely, if their data suggested traffic figures on DJI stories were higher than average, they'd probably write more stories about DJI motors
...ish. It's clear DJI pump out a lot of material with their new releases, which is a godsend for journalists, particularly those who have targets to hit a certain amount of "content" per week. Bikeradar is v good at putting out at least 2 stories/ reviews a day, but a product update with a big load of manufacturer detail, and faux outrage around it, really helps them!
In other other news, journos probably (almost certainly) have reader data which drives what stories are written. If nobody read about and engaged with DJI stories, I suspect they wouldn't write stories about DJI motors... Conversely, if their data suggested traffic figures on DJI stories were higher than average, they'd probably write more stories about DJI motors
The second part, about new things being more interesting, is a no-brainer!
You might be surprised, my experience of specialist journalism is that the systematic use of carefully curated reader data is often trumped by other stuff like whether DJI's PR has a nice smile and a winning telephone manner... plus the compelling need to create content, any content. Call me cynical etc.
As for journos being neophytes, what I'm getting at is the thing where there's a tendency to be dazzled by stuff just because it's novel and overrate it as a result, the old Whyte 46 was a prime example. Journos raved about it because it was the first, relatively light, long travel trail bike out there, but somehow overlooked that it was unpleasantly tall and had twitchy steering that made it mildly terrifying when speeds increased beyond a certain point.
I know this is, to an extent, modern life, where it's all about more and more new and more advanced 'stuff' and cycling is no different to many other industries/business areas, but it seems a shame that we've taken a device, the bicycle, which has always been a relatively simple thing powered by a human being and turned it into something that's slowly creeping towards being a crap e-motorcycle with pedals. YMMV etc.
In other news: journos are great at being brainwashed by an industry that just wants to sell more and more new stuff and love new shiny things partly because they're simply intrinsically more interesting than old shiny things. [don't ask how I know etc].
Journos aren’t noted for cutting off the hand that feeds them. The bike industry is all about selling e-bikes and so all journos are pro e-bikes. It’s that simple.
I don’t have an ebike, I dont see the point of full power bikes if you like riding. I kind of get the sl ones that are light enough to be close to a normal bike especially for winch and plunge enduro style riding
I'm as happy to read about normal MTB's as much as eMTB's, but like it or not, eMTB's are for the majority now
Are they? I can’t help putting them in the same category as XTR level kit and extra expensive forks like fox Podiums. Yes these things are available to buy, but they’re not cheap and we can argue about them even being “affordable” for the majority (especially in permanently austerity struck Blighty).
I think what e-MTBs have become is the aspirational version of MTBing for the Majority, just because the bicycling meeja says eeebs are awesome and the great unwashed all wants them, doesn’t mean the majority can actually afford them… I don’t think the Majority all have eeebs now do they(?)
Conversely, if their data suggested traffic figures on DJI stories were higher than average, they'd probably write more stories about DJI motors 🤷♂️
Fair point, and the data probably doesn’t differentiate much between traffic/engagement from the “for” or “against” perspectives, as many people are “hate-viewing” the media coverage of Avinox stuff as ****ing themselves silly over all the wattage numbers I reckon… The attention economy values all flavours of engagement…
I don’t think you can criticise cycling media for covering E-bikes, they’re a thing that exists in the world of cycling and there is interest and controversy surrounding them. But they’re not the only thing happening in the world of MTBs perhaps their media footprint should reflect their actual importance…
Journos aren’t noted for cutting off the hand that feeds them. The bike industry is all about selling e-bikes and so all journos are pro e-bikes. It’s that simple.
See also some outlets' absolute obsession with 32" wheels. They're niche even among pros, but it's content, it's clicks, it's a living...
Journos aren’t noted for cutting off the hand that feeds them. The bike industry is all about selling e-bikes and so all journos are pro e-bikes. It’s that simple.
I think it's probably slightly more nuanced than that, but broadly speaking, yes, along those lines. What's concerning is the drift towards the idea that they've somehow supplanted normal bikes.
I actually have an e-mtb - long story, kind friend, long covid - if anything, the experience has taught me to value being able to ride non-assisted mountain bikes more. My pet hate is the noise electric motors make, but if you take the unconditional effort out of riding a bike, it is, in my opinion anyway, no longer the same thing.
For some reason - maybe it's self interest, maybe it's just lack of any curiosity about the metaphysics (sorry) of mountain biking, the mountain bike media, seems unable to even acknowledge the idea that e-mtbs might have any downsides - noise pollution, weight, complexity, sustainability, the nature of mountain biking as a sport etc. It's depressingly uncritical. There's an almost complete lack of curiosity, like a sort of technological brainwashing.
It's depressingly uncritical. There's an almost complete lack of curiosity, like a sort of technological brainwashing.
YES! And it'd actually be more credible, I'd take it on board more, if it had more measured criticism. "These are the drawbacks in our experience, and our concerns/ issues" gives more weight to the final conclusions
Journos aren’t noted for cutting off the hand that feeds them. The bike industry is all about selling e-bikes and so all journos are pro e-bikes. It’s that simple.
I'm not so sure - I think there's a few journos (not all, of course) who don't think eMTBs are the bees knees
https://www.bikeradar.com/features/opinion/emtbs-are-ruining-mountain-biking-but-not-in-the-way-you-might-think
I'm not so sure - I think there's a few journos (not all, of course) who don't think eMTBs are the bees knees
Yes, that's one thing. Something else that I've never seen mentioned is how riding an e-mtb can completely change the rhythm of a ride. Normal trail rides round here at least, tend to mix short climbs with corresponding descents, it's jagged. For me, the climbs have always been a mix of just turning over a gear steadily and being able to think, muse, get into the rhythm of climbing and/or short, brutal, technical anaerobic efforts.
With an e-mtb, climbs can be something that you just get done with minimal fuss or effort, from being a mash-up of different types of riding, to a sort of 'fast forward', speeded up experience where you're racing through the ad-breaks to get to the good stuff, except in this case, climbs are also 'the good stuff', just different. I know that's a bit overly cerebral, but as with Mr BikeRadar, I find e-mtbs weirdly unsatisfying. Sure, you're in the same places and you have two wheels, but the process is different. Sigh, I should get out more. Maybe I need an e-mtb?
It's depressingly uncritical. There's an almost complete lack of curiosity, like a sort of technological brainwashing.
I've found that this is true of most STW reviews, not just when it comes to Eebs. It seems simply that they're mostly of the opinion that new=good, with very little consideration of 'why' (and when that question is asked, they believe the answers given to them by the respective marketing department).
eMTBs are rapidly changing from being a bit of help to enable less fit riders to do a bit more, into something more like an electric motorbike.
I'm as happy to read about normal MTB's as much as eMTB's, but like it or not, eMTB's are for the majority now
Are they? I can’t help putting them in the same category as XTR level kit and extra expensive forks like fox Podiums. Yes these things are available to buy, but they’re not cheap and we can argue about them even being “affordable” for the majority (especially in permanently austerity struck Blighty).
<snip>
I don’t think you can criticise cycling media for covering E-bikes, they’re a thing that exists in the world of cycling and there is interest and controversy surrounding them. But they’re not the only thing happening in the world of MTBs perhaps their media footprint should reflect their actual importance…
The three guys I mentioned above gave the impression that without eBikes they wouldn't have been out riding.
I don't put eBikes in the same box as XTR as those guys obviously had £4k each to spend on a bike but they didn't choose an XTR equipped dandy horse because the reality is that whatever performance you get from XTR is absolute infinitesimal compared to the real assistance an eBike gives you.
I think their actual importance, whether for better or worse, is bringing in people who wouldn't otherwise be cycling. No amount of XTR shaving 50 grams off a derailleur is going to bring any new riders in.
Are they? I can’t help putting them in the same category as XTR level kit and extra expensive forks like fox Podiums. Yes these things are available to buy, but they’re not cheap and we can argue about them even being “affordable” for the majority (especially in permanently austerity struck Blighty).
I don’t think the total price is the issue. I suspect many are bought on finance and all that matters is the monthly repayment amount
Bikes that accelerate quickly, may have been deregulated, mixed use paths and a bit of footpath use.
What could possibly go wrong?
Who cares?
I'm coming to the conclusion that as long as they meet the current legislation (they do, perhaps with VPN derestriction ability TBD as another topic) then I really don't care what the output max power is. We won't get banned from areas bc of motor power, it'll be because of rider behaviour, the same risks as we've had for 30+ years and it's not been a major issue. Digging trails causes more grief.
Talking about 1000W or 1500W isn't the point, it's more about how we went from one class of product to a very different one while mostly lumping it all in as the same thing. That's how it got this far.
Let's face it, MTB has changed and that isn't really being discussed, we just have debates about power levels. Or, perhaps it's not really changed bc I see e-MTB as a downhill bike culture on bikes that go XC. Anyway, what general/average MTB is and what the bikes are has changed. Get with it or let it go, I reckon.
I'm not anti-eMTB and I said years ago that MTB was becoming a powered sport so where we are heading is no suprise to me. I just ... don't really care? I don't feel like I'm having to defend MTB by worrying about e-MTB specs because to me it's not MTB anymore anyway. It's something else for someone else to worry about. Zero interest personally (yet have had fun days riding them). And that's just my opinion which shapes how I feel about e-MTB power levels, rather than anything that matters to anyone.
Ride what you like. Ride a Surron in the woods if you like*, just don't be a dick. Let's talk more about behaviour or why we ride and how that shapes the product we choose, and less about tech specs of some new motor. It's about as interesting as damper tuning or power meters.
*they're quieter than the **** 2-strokes I see on FPs and bridleways fairly often.
We won't get banned from areas bc of motor power, it'll be because of rider behaviour, the same risks as we've had for 30+ years and it's not been a major issue.
I respectfully disagree about the behavioural risk not changing.
The power is helping open the door to more people whose behaviour is likely to be a problem and can reasonably be expected to amplify bad existing behaviours from others. That increases the risk and feeds the noise and NIMBYs arguments for restrictions and access loss.
We are way beyond enabling people with medical conditions, fitness issues and aging now. All good things that e-bikes help overcome.
This power arms race is not just about market share but market growth. That means deliberately opening the door to those who are put off by effort for reward and where trail manners are more likely to be lacking. Much like the high power luxury car/SUV space - they are likely to attract certain kinds of buyer and that buyer is more likely to exhibit certain kinds of behaviour.
The existing users will do what they do but it's the new entrants that concern me.
Maybe I've been sheltered - living in the Derbyshire Dales, we aren't exactly the mecca of MTB, 'e' or otherwise, but we aren't devoid of it either. I've literally never seen anyone being a dick on an ebike
I respectfully disagree about the behavioural risk not changing.
The power is helping open the door to more people whose behaviour is likely to be a problem and can reasonably be expected to amplify bad existing behaviours from others.
I thought that could be a risk at first. But we've had 150mm travel, big tyres and brakes and steep hills for ages. It's easy to be a dick on any downhill. It's easy to pedal past 15mph on a regular bike in shared use areas. E-bikes add an option in how to be a dick, but not the numbers who are likely to be a dick. MTB overall isn't growing at any rate these days.
So I don't think it's a justified concern unless e-MTBs are attracting a different rider entirely, in large numbers, and their behaviour is very different to the past MTB crowd (and I don't think that's the case).
E-bikes add an option in how to be a dick, but not the numbers who are likely to be a dick
mmm... respectfully... ebikes allow more people to be a dick. Blasting past at 15mph doesn't require any level of fitness any more; ebikes allow people without skills to feel that they're excellent at biking and blast through sections that other bikers may be taking a little more time over.
mmm... respectfully... ebikes allow more people to be a dick. Blasting past at 15mph doesn't require any level of fitness any more; ebikes allow people without skills to feel that they're excellent at biking and blast through sections that other bikers may be taking a little more time over.
A few more places where they can be a dick maybe, but I don't see how e-bikes create more dicks. Not unless it's bringing in a hugely different rider mentality (and thf really is 'a different thing' Vs MTB).
Would it be logical to suggest that less fit riders coming into MTB via e-MTBs are more likely to be obnoxious anti-social types? That wouldn't make sense.
Gravel bikes enable higher speeds on shared use trails and drop bars make us feel like racers - maybe they're a risk to access too? But they're not.
Some will be anti e-MTB and let that bias their thinking about the risks. I'm meh about e-MTBs verging on not really liking much about them tbh, but I don't think there's any risk or problem that doesn't already exist in the rider. And that's a minority thing, no worse than most areas of life.
