VTT

But then again I guess most of us could take a road bike round glentress red – slowly and carefully using the chicken lines – so does that make glentress not mountainbiking?

This is where a lot of the definitions and so on will fall down.
Yes we (competent riders) could do it on a road bike.
Those of us into running could run it (in probably a similar time). If you wanted a work out you could probably do it on a pogo stick or a space hopper.

But for recreational mtbing, it is, I would hope, most fun on some sort of mtb.

Trying to define MTBing is a bit sad.
It’s like listening to a bunch of teenagers arguing about which bands are ‘Metal’.

Pathetic. 😀

RustySpanner

Trying to define MTBing is a bit sad.
It’s like listening to a bunch of teenagers arguing about which bands are ‘Metal’.

Perhaps as to an extent it is what it is… it’s evolved and even evolved so far as to separate species…
However like anything with commercial interests some are going to try anyway and its a question of being pushed or pulled and what many will try and take away because they are against other people having fun doing what they like.

The whole assertion of Dangerous Sport to Fun Activity will end up trying to put MTB into a box that can be controlled and managed by the fun police.
Fundamentally the whole concept of “dangerous” is being projected as if its a reality without a proper definition or proper statistics for that definition. If anything it is trying to convince people that something that isn’t dangerous is.

Lets take the definition of the Butler committee.
PROPOSALS OF THE BUTLER COMMITTEE AND THE SCOTTISH COUNCIL ON CRIME IN THE UNITED KINGDOM

DANGEROUSNESS IS A PROPENSITY TO CAUSE SERIOUS PHYSICAL INJURY OR LASTING PSYCHOLOGICAL HARM.

Serious physical injury is death, paralysis it is most specifically not anything the minor injury clinic can treat like a broken arm or wrist… otherwise it wouldn’t be called a minor injury.

Even the most extreme forms of MTB rarely result in serious physical injury… Noone died at hardline yet… or even had a serious injury and everyone including the competitors is going to agree that is EXTREME

What we have is a misperception of what danger is perhaps?

Every time anyone looks for data on serious injuries in MTB there is never enough… take neck braces for example. Not enough people have serious injuries riding DH to make for meaningful stats either way.

In contrast take road cycling either as a sport of leisure activity where lots of people die and have serious injuries.

Ultimately most injuries in MTB (overwhelming) are minor, the result from hitting something be it the ground or another object and most of the time you just aren’t going that fast in MTB. You can crash off a jump or you can fall off a stile carrying the bike or riding from the car park to trails and the RESULT are all about the same.

Equally these minor injuries are not really avoidable… you can dodge them perhaps but there isn’t a version of MTB/road/horse riding or kids playgrounds that is free of risk of minor injuries.

People in the UK just need to accept it’s OK to have the odd minor injury .. and for those who see MTB as “dangerous” they need to reframe THEIR ideas of dangerous – kids need to have their playgrounds made more like other countries so the odd broken bone is normal and they learn to judge and manage risk…

There is a really good paper on this but this will do for now

if they want to reframe mtbing should support youtube’s and the like to make content that would attract new participants.

“We” is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that byline.

I’ve done way more damage to myself on my road bikes than MTB’ing, some very serious. MTB had been no more that a bruised shoulder. Road bike has been ribs twice, spine once, shoulder (needing surgery) once, shoulder again, and recently big scar on forearm. Thing is speed is an issue on road bikes, and cars.

I do, however, ride within my skills on the MTB – road bike has been other road users mainly, or conditions on the road suddenly changing (greasy surface/ice).

We had an epic day in October in the Clywidian range. Four of us, two were very fit. I managed OK but my mate suffered badly with the climbing involved. I’ve never been the same since breaking my spine so lost fitness, and one of our mates is a big lad. The other two, one is a seriously quick road rider (who MTB’s) and the other just quick riding anything and a bit of a nutter on a bike. The big lad suffered. The quick roadie/MTB rider stacked it less than a mile from the car going too quick down a grassy descent – wheel just dug into ruts. 4 broken ribs and a puntured lung – this happened on Saturday, he didn’t go to A&E until Monday when back in England – don’t crash in that bit of N. Wales.

It can be brutal MTB’ing – especially when in the middle of nowhere, and not in a trail centre.

Alex Honnold is still alive, maybe soloing El Cap isn’t that dangerous either? : )

That’s not really the point.
The point really is hardline is probably towards the extreme end yet no-one died or even had a major injury despite lots and lots of crashes. I think this year over 1/2 had minor injuries in practice…but just a few broken bones etc.

The point being that the riders or climbers doing these things have huge amounts of skill and experience and they work up to that level so injuries are probably less common than among the weekend warriors at BPW. And still,

‘over 1/2 had minor injuries in practice’
‘Just a few broken bones’
: )

How ‘dangerous’ it is is not something I’m taking a position on, it’s subjective. But safe to say MTB overall in general on average etc is not the same as RC car racing. Riding bikes away from traffic can be a very safe activity though.

Unfortunately many who do suffer from self-image do take exception to others doing fun things and seek to stop them having fun because of their own irrational fears. They scream and shout and throw their toys out of the pram when a trail gets a feature that scares them and start making threats .. the “when someone hurts themselves I told you so” sort that then gets landowners nervous.

If a landowner is getting nervous it needs managing by the rational people who risk assess things and get the permission to build the stuff. If you want to build trail features to add excitement that’s some of what comes with it?

jameso

How ‘dangerous’ it is is not something I’m taking a position on, it’s subjective. But safe to say MTB overall in general on average etc is not the same as RC car racing. Riding bikes away from traffic can be a very safe activity though.

Sorry but if you want to say something is dangerous or safe or anything in-between to anyone other than yourself but especially in the context where it is going to be used to scare/threaten people you need to take a position and (in the wider context) provide evidence.
Hence why I took the PROPOSALS OF THE BUTLER COMMITTEE AND THE SCOTTISH COUNCIL as a yardstick.

I personally use a simpler one, is it something I’d be rushed to A&E or ICU directly from a minor injuries clinic.
If the NHS define it as a minor injury (i.e simple breaks etc.) then IMHO you need to say why you either disagree or agree before just dismissing it?

The point being that the riders or climbers doing these things have huge amounts of skill and experience and they work up to that level so injuries are probably less common than among the weekend warriors at BPW. And still,

‘over 1/2 had minor injuries in practice’
‘Just a few broken bones’
: )

Yet Kerr crashed full on with a completely exploded wheel as fast as most people would EVER go , walked away and rode the next day. Lots of people crashed yet no-one died… because crashing depends how fast and what you hit… hitting a stone wall on a gravel bike at the same speed would doubtlessly ended up in serious injury and probably death…

If a landowner is getting nervous it needs managing by the rational people who risk assess things and get the permission to build the stuff. If you want to build trail features to add excitement that’s some of what comes with it?

Except that isn’t what happens mostly… what happens is the land owner gets threatened by the fun police and they just decide its better to just go along with them or ban MTB on their land.

What is even going through the heads of the sicko’s that threaten them and the volunteers if they don’t do as they are told?

But safe to say MTB overall in general on average etc is not the same as RC car racing. Riding bikes away from traffic can be a very safe activity though.

All going back to the definition of dangerous and safe.
Accept a few minor injuries and its incredibly safe compared to road cycling…

Sorry but if you want to say something is dangerous or safe or anything in-between to anyone other than yourself but especially in the context where it is going to be used to scare/threaten people you need to take a position and (in the wider context) provide evidence.
Hence why I took the PROPOSALS OF THE BUTLER COMMITTEE AND THE SCOTTISH COUNCIL as a yardstick.

That’s cool – that’s what I meant, I personally don’t have to take a position on it as I’m not building trails or promoting MTB as one thing or another. I’m trying to see how others see MTB. What I think doesn’t matter here because I’m not judging MTB in any way that has a bearing on what it is.

If the NHS define it as a minor injury (i.e simple breaks etc.) then IMHO you need to say why you either disagree or agree before just dismissing it?

OK.. a broken bone might be classed as minor to the trained staff of the NHS but while I wouldn’t question their assessment it’d not be very minor to me personally : )
But we’re into semantics and anyone’s free to disagree when I suggest it’s reasonable to see more risks in MTB than a number of other pass-times or sports – which kind of is ‘taking a position on it’, but it’s more about reflecting how it may be seen generally, a lot of what this debate is about.

Yet Kerr crashed full on with a completely exploded wheel as fast as most people would EVER go , walked away and rode the next day.

Crashes can be so random can’t they, there isn’t much input=output repeatability. Where I think we find common ground is that Hardline or a trail centre should have a lowered risk due to risk assessments / minimisation, like an FMEA for routes. So they should be safer to some extent than roads and natural trail despite the perceptions of the activity happening on them and the ease of a broken collarbone etc wherever you ride, from a simple slip or a big crash landing. If you make that lower risk trail centre more enjoyable in terms of effort vs reward it’s becoming that ‘fun activity’.

jameso

Crashes can be so random can’t they, there isn’t much input=output repeatability. Where I think we find common ground is that Hardline or a trail centre should have a lowered risk due to risk assessments / minimisation, like an FMEA for routes.

I don’t think we can pretend hardline is really safe, sooner or later someone who has chosen to do it will die… BUT it illustrates the point.

They ACCEPT the risk at their level… they shouldn’t be there if they cant do their own risk assessment. Everyone walks the track first … some/many bike parks do FULL track walks in the morning daily… to cover their own risk/insurance but they still have wavers.

So trail centres? That’s where it starts to get tricky…. because as you say crashes can be so random but also there is always going to be some snowflake with a lawyer. This even extends to non trail centres and permitted riding.

There is some guy currently making all sorts of threats to the charity that administer public access for Hurtwood … how he was an expert witness on a previous case awarding X Million… and threatening the recognised official trail builders that he knows who they are.

This all comes from some misguided idea that MTB is somehow “safe” in their definition…. that somehow someone can buy a bike and go and ride on someone else’s property on trails they didn’t build and if they get hurt because they are shit and/or just unlucky they can sue someone. There are always being to be sick individuals who’s source of enjoyment in life is ruining the enjoyment of others but we shouldn’t be putting this power into their hands.

you are riding well beyond your abilities

Isn’t that a part of the fun for many? Pushing limits etc

Errmmm – IMO its you that has the odd perception thinking a safe pastime is dangerous.  Its not.

SAFE as not risk breaking the odd bone they need to go find another hobby as that isn’t possible in MTB.

Yes it is.  the vast majority of us never break bones

Nope – it means your perception of risk is skewed.     MTBing is not risky.

Nope – it means your perception of risk is skewed. MTBing is not risky.

I agree because breaking an odd bone and other minor injuries doesn’t make it risky…

Source?

actually why you asking for my source…??? it’s TJ claiming the vast majority of us never break bones..where his his source?

it’s TJ claiming the vast majority of us never break bones..where his his source?

30+ years of mountainbiking with a huge variety of folk of all skills.  Ive seen one broken bone.  40+ years of road riding two deaths

Its much safer than road riding for example but some of you seem to think its this dangerous extreme sport when it really is not.  Why this need to see it in this way is beyond me.  Unless your assessment of risk is crap and you ride way beyond your abilities then its simply not dangerous

TJ

30+ years of mountainbiking with a huge variety of folk of all skills. Ive seen one broken bone. 40+ years of road riding two deaths

Just because you only saw one doesn’t mean there weren’t others…. (unless you have some super power xray vision)

Its much safer than road riding for example but some of you seem to think its this dangerous extreme sport when it really is not.

Of course its safer than road riding… Safe being the opposite of DANGEROUS.

I’m not claiming its a dangerous sport, I’m saying it has an inherent risk of minor injury.
Why are you even trying to conflate a few broken bones with dangerous sport?

Conventionally risk analysis has 2 main axes… likelihood and impact and you keep conflating them.

Why this need to see it in this way is beyond me. Unless your assessment of risk is crap and you ride way beyond your abilities then its simply not dangerous

I’ve not said it WAS dangerous…. quite the opposite the chance of death is minimal

Hitting a brick wall/bus at 60 mph is dangerous…. falling on the floor at 10-15 mph isn’t… You can kill yourself at 15mph but it’s very difficult and involves a lot of bad luck.

If we conflate risk of minor injuries with danger (impact)… and people get the idea they can MTB without risk of the odd minor injury then the snowflakes start suing and injury lawyers and ambulance chasers ensue and trails get closed.

Flicker

It doesn’t make it risky…to you. Others can and will think very differently, especially when you start breaking bones.
mtb CAN be dangerous but it depends on your abilities and what you’re doing at the time.

If we step back … rather than my response to a response to a response….
MTB isn’t risky in terms of consequences (impact) only in terms of frequency of minor injuries.

Breaking the odd bone isn’t high impact… snowflakes might pretend it is but we can’t live our lives based round people with a skewed sense of reality.

As far as risk assessments go, human beings are very poor at assessing risk, most either turn a blind eye to it or convince themselves it wont happen to them.

More to the point risk around MTB is often completely screwed …
“What if I case the gap?” – erm you slow down a lot and can’t do the next jump
“What if my front wheel washes out on a loose stone or slippery root” – you’ll probably pile your head into the ground
“What if I have a mechanical or there is a white out in the middle of nowhere in winter?” – erm you’ll quiote possibly die if you don’t have sufficient survival equipment

and the absolute classic?
“what if I have a heart attack on the climb” …. ask very few people ever.
or “what if I have a traffic accident on the way to the trails”

Many people see the first one as “risky or dangerous” but you’re going to hurt yourself the same just slipping on a root at the same speed (and most jumps absolutely require <15mph) and don’t even consider the danger of driving somewhere or being stranded in the middle of nowhere in winter.

If we step back … rather than my response to a response to a response….
MTB isn’t risky in terms of consequences (impact) only in terms of frequency of minor injuries.

Breaking the odd bone isn’t high impact… snowflakes might pretend it is but we can’t live our lives based round people with a skewed sense of reality.

I’d disagree regarding breaking bones, it is high impact and it can be a serious problem depending on the severity of the break, where you are and who you’re with when it happens.
I wouldn’t class it as a safe pass time either, but then everything we do carries a level of risk. The trick is assessing the risk level and doing what we can to mitigate those risks, if you can accept that then crack on, if not then don’t do it. As I said though, we’re generally rubbish at assessing risk.

Safe would be accidents rare and serious accidents extremely rare

Mountainbiking would fit this

BYW – I am trained in risk assessment and am not confusing incidence and severity.

Why you have this need to claim its risky, broken bones are the norm i cannot fathom.  Why this pretense that its an extreme sport when its a safe pastime and why this weird emphasis on snowflakes and health and safety ruining things?

Its so detached from reality or the norm its unfathomable to me