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  • From Dangerous Sport to Fun Activity – Reframing Mountain Biking
  • I’d concede, he’ll batter you with word count.

    Dunno about batter, more like bore. But that’s what happens when in lieu of an actual personality, people transplant their hobbies.

    Thankfully he’s just one voice shouting into a void.

    Something, something, snowflakes, simps and the such like.

    scotroutes
    Full Member

    I’d concede, he’ll batter you with word count.

    What keyboard for….

    jivehoneyjive
    Free Member

    There is of course a solid argument for more MTBers…

    eventually, you reach a point where the Forest Rangers, Planning Officers, Council Executives, Lawyers, Judges, Politicians, Media Magnates and Investment Bankers are all mountain bikers themselves, so we basically become a bit like the Freemasons (although of course, less dangerous overall)

    jameso
    Full Member

    No-one is forcing ANYONE to ride features…. if someone doesn’t like it ride slow and push/ride around.
    Who do you think the official diggers need to justify themselves to anyway?

    I wasn’t talking about the diggers who have permission now, or anyone being forced to ride things.
    Trails for all and rule #1. Over and out.

    stevextc
    Free Member

    FTFY. As has been pointed out numerous times already, it’s only you that has adopted some sort of gatekeeping role. The rest of us are happy that mountain biking is basically just riding a mountain bike, wherever that is.

    The only gate keeping is that people need to accept they will probably have a few minor injuries.
    You and others are the ones lying to them

    Are you being paid to LIE or are you doing it for fun?

    Bruce
    Full Member

    stevextc You are a very angry person. It might be useful if you listened to other peoples views rather than raving about “snowflakes”. There are many uses of mountain bikes and you don’t have exclusive rights to say how people enjoy cycling. I don’t personally think mountain biking involves building and riding over jumps in the woods but I accept that other people do.
    I don’t think building jumps with pits behind them and leaving random pits near footpaths is going to win many friends, especially when you damage the roots of established large beech trees to get the earth to build ramps.

    stevextc
    Free Member

    Bruce
    Of course I’m angry when people want to kill one of the few remaining leisure activities for people who accept a bit of risk of minor injury with a goal of changing it so that it sounds more attractive to people who otherwise wouldn’t be interested by lying to them about the risks.

    Obviously manufacturers want to sell more bikes.. and they can’t spread lies people won’t have a few injuries and even deaths themselves or they will be sued for millions so they pay others to lie.

    The biggest lie in health and safety is “all accidents are preventable” which really means is “someone is to blame” if someone has an accident. If you get electrocuted because your house is hit by a freak lightning strike then health and safety want to find WHO to blame… WHO can be sued and how can they make money out of your injury/death.
    People in the UK seem to just go along with this just like people think HR is there to protect the employees… or HSSE is there to protect the employees.

    The whole idea of “if you ride inside your capabilities you won’t get hurt” is a lie.
    There are 1001 scenarios where shit just happens and no-one is to blame unless we give an expectation of something being “UK snowflake safe”.

    First off despite the NHS describing fractures as minor injuries some people can’t accept this… you can break a wrist or something just falling off a stationary bike if you have bad luck.. you can get a puncture and lose control … there are 101 ways you can have a minor injury where no-one is REALLY at fault so long as you accept the premise that MTB (or other activities) carry inherent risk AND someone intrinsically ACCEPTS that risk.

    As someone pointed out earlier humans are poor at assessing risks but this isn’t quite what it seems because the UK population is particularly poor at assessing certain types of risk because it is being engineered out of the population.

    It might be useful if you listened to other peoples views

    NO FEAR
    You can download for free, why not read it and open yourself up to other views?

    https://timrgill.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/no-fear-19-12-07.pdf

    I’ll lift a quote from Malmo city

    Although we can’t avoid accidents, where there is a problem that we have known about but not done anything about then the municipality is responsible.
    But if somebody falls and breaks an arm that is just something that happens. Of course it worries us but there is always a risk when you play and move your body…. You are there at your own risk.’

    This is about children’s playgrounds… the same SHOULD apply implicitly to MTB or any form of off-road cycling including skateparks, bmx tracks etc.. but with trails what does “where there is a problem that we have known about” even mean. Do people have some right to have trails walked by someone every morning and the trail closed if a loose rock is found or its a bit icy or should people be expected to deal with that and if they fall off deal with it?

    you don’t have exclusive rights to say how people enjoy cycling

    People can do what they want until it starts affecting what others are allowed to do by making threats to others who don’t agree with their assessment of risks.

    I don’t personally think mountain biking involves building and riding over jumps in the woods but I accept that other people do.

    For the n’th time, no-one is forcing you or anyone to build jumps or ride trails with jumps..

    If we reframe MTB such that people have “a reasonable expectation” to not get “injured” if they “ride within their capability” and the courts have that expectation (that a reasonable person) as well we end up someone blowing a front tyre and OTB looking to sue… and doubtless a bottom feeder lawyer looking to make money and pay some expert witnesses to say how it’s the landowners fault for having a sharp rock or the tyre manufacturer or basically ANYONE except bad luck???

    It’s also completely irrelevant in terms of “reframing MTB” to be “not dangerous”, if anything it’s actively harmful to pretend jumps are more dangerous than any other trail riding just because it’s not your idea of MTB because that gives the idea that MTB is otherwise going to be an injury free activity.

    scotroutes
    Full Member

    Holy ****.

    singlespeedstu
    Full Member

    **** me is he still banging on about this.😂

    cookeaa
    Full Member

    Jeebus is this one still rumbling?
    Have we fixed anything yet?

    stevextc
    Free Member

    singlespeedstu

    **** me is he still banging on about this

    It needs to be stopped … whilst we are still allowed to MTB
    there is sod all point complaining later when the trails get closed down.

    crazy-legs
    Full Member

    It needs to be stopped … whilst we are still allowed to MTB
    there is sod all point complaining later when the trails get closed down.

    Who the **** is going to be “closing down” trails and public rights of way?!

    You’ve got wildly the wrong end of the stick on this, the original article was about reframing MTB from being hardcore / gnarr / rad / sick / to being FUN. Like skiiing or snowboarding which are marketed and accepted that way (alongside the obviously very skilful rad sick DH ski racers etc…)

    There is (obviously) a risk of injury or death in skiing and resorts do things like grading the trails, mandating ski helmets, having first aid provision etc to mitigate that as far as resonably possible but no-one goes on about closing the slopes or suing Val d’Isere or Chill Factore just cos a few dozen people a year break arms and legs. Most people go on a skiing holiday and have FUN. Most people who are into MTBing go MTBing and have FUN. The challenge (as per the article – you did read the article, yes?) is just getting more people to come along and have fun rather than viewing it as only an activity that the fearless hardcore superfit can do. Same as they do when they go skiing or try out any other activity sport on holiday.

    That is what the article is about, not removing all known risk for ever and finding someone to sue.

    🙄

    seriousrikk
    Full Member

    F*ck me that was a rough read and I had to skip some particularly tedious bits. Usually when the word snowflake was uttered, because frankly that complete lack of understanding means pretty much every other point is probably not worth wasting brainpower on.

    But I’m going to type something anyway. I will probably regret this, but it is a point of view.

    There is a set of woods near me that, during lockdown, had some epic trails constructed. Bikepark red level trails but seriously well built. They got popular, they got well known. Many mountain bikers visited, myself included. A few got hurt, myself not included. See I ride within limits I have learned from a few accidents. I’m an adult and I can make informed decisions about my safety

    Problem comes when the teenagers who were old enough to go out on bikes unsupervised but not ‘adults’ found them. Naturally most of them learned stuff as the trials were built, but what about their friend who just got a Carrera for his birthday and wants to do jumps with his mates. He follows the train down the trail, runs out of ability way before he runs out of speed and smacks into a tree. Things get broken, some would call them a minor injury as nothing was serious enough to threaten his life.

    His parents would disagree. They had no idea that such huge jumps exist within such easy reach of an urban area and are understandably angry that they now have to deal with a son who cannot walk and struggles to do *anything* for the next couple of months. They decide to contact the landowner as these are public woods. The landowner was unaware of the trails*, and absolutely did not conset to their construction, and thereofre the only way they can proceed is to have the trails flattened.

    * They weren’t – but they do turn a blind eye to most things. But when faced with potential litigation from an upset parent they will do what they have to.

    So what should be done differently in this (likely very common) scenario?

    (TL:DR Adults can asses risk better than kids)

    stevextc
    Free Member

    Who the **** is going to be “closing down” trails

    It’s already happening (right now) and the excuse is “people might get hurt and we would be liable”.
    The MOD erected lots of illegal fencing in lockdown to keep people off land for which it must maintain public access when not in use. Crown Estate periodically bulldozes trails at Swinley and the excuse is “people might get hurt and we would be liable”

    These are just excuses to land grab but even with the current “public image” a reasonable person (as in legal term) would still tend towards saying when someone climbs on an MTB they are accepting the risk.

    If we work backwards from this and if the public perception changes then a “reasonable person” might expect if people are mountain biking then things should be made “safe”.

    and public rights of way?!

    You can’t close rights of way … however it illustrates what happens when people expect to be “safe”.
    Landowners end up having to remove things that people could hurt themselves on if they try hard enough.
    Our local council closed part of a footpath on common land because a handrail was broken over a bridge… it’s not a very high bridge and you’d need to throw yourself off deliberately but someone complained it was dangerous. I have no issue them actually repairing stuff.. but the point here was it was closed (for several (2-3?) years) until it was “made safe”. (I’d bet the person who complained just wanted it repairing… and had they known it was just going to be closed for 2-3 years instead they’d probably not have bothered. )

    but no-one goes on about closing the slopes or suing Val d’Isere

    Val d’Isere is in France …

    France (or the rest of Europe) are not crippled by the same risk averse culture that permeates the UK.
    ^^See the book I linked^^

    stevextc
    Free Member

    seriousrikk

    His parents would disagree. They had no idea that such huge jumps exist within such easy reach of an urban area and are understandably angry that they now have to deal with a son who cannot walk and struggles to do *anything* for the next couple of months. They decide to contact the landowner as these are public woods. The landowner was unaware of the trails*, and absolutely did not conset to their construction, and thereofre the only way they can proceed is to have the trails flattened.

    * They weren’t – but they do turn a blind eye to most things. But when faced with potential litigation from an upset parent they will do what they have to.

    So what should be done differently in this (likely very common) scenario?

    The parents could get told he was MTBing.. minor injuries happen.
    Check out Fleet dirt jumps, council run. Lots of accidents, broken bones etc. lots of learning experiences at your own risk.

    There is nothing understandable about them being angry that jumps were allowed to exist close to an urban area.

    They could have injured themselves lots of ways… it happens. They could have been in a skatepark or .. well just being a kid. Also you are assuming they didn’t realise the risk and just do it anyway.

    However as you say the landowner was really left with no real choice and bulldozed the trails rather than face litigation .. because win or lose it’s easier to bulldoze.

    myself not included. See I ride within limits I have learned from a few accidents.

    Erm, well yep…. this is how we actually learn to access risks. (or most of the rest of the world does)

    Sorry the doc I linked is 98 pages but see how the rest of the world do it.

    jodafett
    Full Member

    Anyone else looking forward to @stwhannah writing another article based on all the replies? 😀

    weeksy
    Full Member

    She’s too busy pulling her hair out at how the thread went

    singlespeedstu
    Full Member

    there is sod all point complaining later when the trails get closed down.

    **** all chance of that happening round here.
    Maybe move😜

    tomhoward
    Full Member

    ‘Mountain biking’

    The act of riding a mountain bike.

    Happy?

    singlespeedstu
    Full Member

    Happy?

    Seems to be very unhappy from the amount of typing that he does.
    #typelessridemore.

    cookeaa
    Full Member

    Anyone else looking forward to @stwhannah writing another article based on all the replies? 😀

    She moved onto the ‘trail pot’ one next, TBF these articles are clearly asking some thought provoking questions that we as a collective are sort of managing to make an utter mess of discussing/debating in a constructive fashion (I’m as guilty as anyone). We fell at the first hurdle with this one as we don’t seem to be able to agree what mountain biking even is between us.

    But I still welcome the discussions, it’s important, mountain biking today isn’t the same thing it was twenty odd years ago, and that was already pretty removed from what it was when I first encountered it I the late 80s so actually considering where it should go over the next quarter of a century or so is probably a pertinent question these days…

    stevextc
    Free Member

    **** all chance of that happening round here.

    Weird because then seriousrikk posted that the landowner was threatened by some risk averse **** and bulldozed the trails ???

    Any landowner who allows MTB is going to do the same when snowflakes start threatening legal action unless the snowflakes are fined and told to STFU or go to prison

    What is it makes people think they can tell people what they are allowed or not allowed to do because they decide it’s too risky ???

    scotroutes
    Full Member

    colournoise
    Full Member

    Isn’t it more… ?

    Ad nauseam…

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