I have intentionally avoided putting this on the thread started by hora yesterday because I don’t want to detract from the murder of two colleagues yesterday. However in response to my comments on there last night I was contacted by an STW’er who shall remain nameless who has expressed an interest in joining the Police and wanted my views on it as a career.

I’ve responded to him by email but thought I might copy the content down here . Just to get it off my chest.
(awaits I struggle with long sentences comments)

“Forgive me if this reply isn’t overly positive but as you know GMP was hit pretty hard with the loss of two colleagues yesterday.

On the plus side my job gives me an enormous amount of pride, however this government are systematically ruining the Police Service by cutting budgets, reducing police numbers and changing our pay and conditions for the worse. I signed up to 30 years in 1996 with a “guaranteed” pension package at that time. Not to much to ask really as I also agreed to pay 11% of my pay into my pension for the next 30 years.

Frontline policing – which every officer at every rank has done for an absolute minimum of two years is a tiring, stressful, dirty, and downright dangerous job. Not only do you risk your lives every day but you also put yourself at risk of discipline, complaints, prosecution, sacking and imprisonment. In the last 17 years, 5 colleagues of mine have been sacked because their reactions to a violent or intimidating situation were deemed “over the top”. One of them went to prison and another is awaiting sentence next month.
Frontline policing is also potentially the most rewarding job in the world. I have been involved in rescuing people from burning buildings, giving immediate first aid to people stabbed through the chest and throat and have reunited lost children to grateful parents.

I’ve also sat beside a 6 year old boy who had been hit by a car while he died. He couldn’t speak English but I know he just wanted his mum. Ive held peoples stomach contents in whilst my colleagues have driven them to hospital because we couldnt wait for an ambulance. I have been a detective for 10 years and have interviewed people like Cregan countless times. You can’t let it get to you – but it does from time to time. 

Now the government has decided that the Police need to work for a little bit harder, with a few less colleagues, for a little less money, for a whole lot longer (in many cases) and to come out at the end with a lot less pension than they agreed to when they signed up all those years ago.

Does it still sound like the job for you?”

i dont really know how to respond other than a simple ” well said sir.

Same applies to any Gov emergency service, sadly.

My M-in-Law is a Matron, so I hear the horrors of budget cuts. Not far off re-washing bandages on the ward at the bedside now… (Thatcher made them do that in the 80s!)

I was thinking about you yesterday fella. Its absolutely tragic what’s happened. I’m sure there’s plenty on the force wondering if its worth it.

So what did you think about Call-me-Dave immediately making sure he was getting his Blairite commiseration soundbite, and photo-op straight on all the evening news bulletins then? While he’s busy slashing frontline policing? About as heart-felt as anything else he’s ever done. They’ve truly no shame

So what did you think about Call-me-Dave immediately getting his Blairite commiseration soundbite and photo-op straight on all the evening news bulletins then

Couldn’t watch it mate. We turned it off.

I couldn’t agree with you more OP. Policing is a very miserable place to be at the moment.

Policing is a very miserable place to be at the moment.

Public service in general not just policing in particular.

Well, personally. Couldn’t do it. Appreciate it that people do. Despite the ever reducing pay and conditions.

An honest question. Is the Is reduction in pay/conditions having a noteable impact [to you] in the quality of recruit? Any other effects aside from morale?

Unklehomered: simple answer is no. Because our force hasn’t recruited any Police Officers for over 12 months. Despite people leaving/ retiring. No promotions now for almost two years and no recruitments. Part of the “streamlining”

I’d still love to do it, I’m a planning officer, which is a good job, money isn’t the best considering i needed a masters degree to get in, but I’m out the office a lot and I’m meeting and dealing with people all day which I love. But I’d happily jack it in to become a copper tomorrow.

I look at people who may earn loads but spend all day stuck in an office, have to wear a suit and spend all their time in an horrendously stuffy corporate environment and count myself very lucky that that isn’t me.

Would still love to be a copper though.

In the last 17 years, 5 colleagues of mine have been sacked because their reactions to a violent or intimidating situation were deemed “over the top”. One of them went to prison and another is awaiting sentence next month.

You say that like it’s a bad thing and they should have been let off. If a Police officer ends up in prison for his reaction to being attacked it must have been more than a little “over the top” by any normal view.

(decided not to post and not to view this thread in light of the post above mine)

Waiting for the usual civil servants dont do anything and are lazy workshy incompetents reactions to this thread.

I am not plod but tomorrow I will be interviewing a total scumbag who uses intimidation and bribery to get what he wants. Really cant wait untill the tapes stop rolling and he tells me he will kill me if he ever sees me out.

Just look at Simon Harwood / Ian Tomlinson…. he got ‘let off’ by the Force…. god knows what your fellow coppers did to get banged up!!!

Bizzies be bizzyin’

😉

Sorry phil.w I can’t see how you draw the conclusion that I felt any of those officers should have been let off.

Perhaps you should read the post again? Somebody wanted advice on a career in the Police service and I was stating facts.

Sorry phil.w I can’t see how you draw the conclusion that I felt any of those officers should have been let off.

From the context you wrapped it up in.

Not only do you risk your lives every day but you also put yourself at risk of discipline, complaints, prosecution, sacking and imprisonment. In the last 17 years, 5 colleagues of mine have been sacked because their reactions to a violent or intimidating situation were deemed “over the top”. One of them went to prison and another is awaiting sentence next month.

It definitely comes across as if you don’t think this should have been allowed. Whereas the risk of sacking is the same if you break the rules in any job, and risk of imprisonment is equally the same for anyone that breaks the law.

If you didn’t mean to phrase it that way then I apologise.

Sounds very similar to life in the ambulance service.. Only with slightly reduced prospects of violence and less interviews/court attendance..
Can only take my hat off to the coppers and the job they do. A lot of us appreciate it, especially those of us in green.

Well, I for one thank you,and all your buddies, for the job you do.

OK, I will be the bad guy and bite.

The part of the reforms that the police seem to object to most is the changes to how they are paid. At present officers’ pay rises with years served, irrespective of performance. In the future pay will partly depend on performance. I think thats positive step.

And on pensions, I dont think we need to argue again about the changes to public sector pensions (please lets not) but are you suggesting that the police should be immune from those? On what basis?

althepal – Member

Sounds very similar to life in the ambulance service.. Only with slightly reduced prospects of violence and less interviews/court attendance..

…and mental health nursing.

phil w…. you can be sacked, struck off (if applicable), prosecuted and even imprisoned for omissions and errors of judgenment as well as physical acts BTW. Until you have worked in direct and immediate fear someone else’s or your own safety/life, you will have no idea what daft decisions poeple are forced into making at a second’s notice because the wrong set of chance circumstances have conspired against you and/or ‘the system’ has let you down.

We also have one of the rather better/best disciplined and regluated police forces in the world, of course.

[edit] mcboo, am I right in thinking from a thread many moons ago that you have an armed forces pension?

Keep up the good work Bregante

mcboo – Member
OK, I will be the bad guy and bite.

The part of the reforms that the police seem to object to most is the changes to how they are paid. At present officers’ pay rises with years served, irrespective of performance. In the future pay will partly depend on performance. I think thats positive step.

And on pensions, I dont think we need to argue again about the changes to public sector pensions (please lets not) but are you suggesting that the police should be immune from those? On what basis?

You didn’t need for first declaration because you used the word ‘reforms’. From that point on we all knew your position.

+1

until you’re being attacked, for real not in a training type simulation where you know deep down they wont hurt you, you’ve just got to show the instructors you know the correct techniques… there’s no way of accurately prediction how you’ll react.

bregante, i got the same contact last night, asking me what i thought.
i replied with a very similar e -mail to yours!
It broke my heart to write it, and i tried to be as positive as i could, but thers not a lot of positives in the police service at the moment.
Please dont bite when ass wipes on here try to wind you up regarding pensions and discipline matters. They have not a clue what its like on the streets, dealing with utter shiit. They will never know what emotions and horrific situations most police officers have been through, so they are not in a position to judge if we should get a good pension, or if we were justified in using force.We are the only ones who need to justify ourselves if we act professionally and fairly we are bomb proof.I have worked 24.5 years on the streets of G.M.P and have seen massive changes in the police, ive seen Governments come and go, making changes to our pay and conditions.This government is giving it to us big time for some reason, and dont think we will have any tangible back up from the public.They see the pension as excessive, partly down to the mis information put out by the tories.
The ballott on industrial action is in the pipeline, so lets see how that pans out(i would never strike, ever)but would be nice to have some options open to us.
We are no longer a protected species, its open season on police at the moment, we need to stick together, more than ever.
I retire in 13 months on a massive fat pension, but ill tell you what , i am damaged goods because of all the stres and heartache ive had through this job, was it worth it?
im not sure

In response to mcboo – you ask the question why should the police be treated any differently than the rest of the public sector – or words to that effect. What other job within the public sector compares to it? The answer, in case you are wondering is ‘none’, there isnt one. On that basis alone, the police have to be treated differently from the rest of the public sector.

The part of the reforms that the police seem to object to most is the changes to how they are paid. At present officers’ pay rises with years served, irrespective of performance. In the future pay will partly depend on performance. I think thats positive step.

That’s incorrect; what the Police object to is the systematic attack on the Service as a whole, with Pay & Conditions as a part of this.

The official side & staff side entered into arbitration regarding the Winsor 1 recommendations with an agreement that they would abide by the panels decision. The Panel made specific comment on how the changes proposed would actually make no difference, which mirrored what the staff side were saying. Nevertheless, following the panels decisions the home office ‘re-interpreted’ the findings and forces upon us the changes they wanted.

And on pensions, I dont think we need to argue again about the changes to public sector pensions (please lets not) but are you suggesting that the police should be immune from those? On what basis?

Nobody is saying the Police should be immune, but when the Federation presented an alternative plan that would have given the same savings, but would have preserved the pension rights of those in the current pension plan, the Government would not listen. The Police do not have ANY of the employment rights everyone else has. They do a unique job as described by Bregante, and sadly underlined by those 2 brave officers in GMP; the current pension scheme reflected this, and was formulated as a sweetener in order to solve some serious recruitment an retention problems the service historically has.

The Government are doing a great job in creating negative spin about the Police. They are doing this so that when they enforce the “necessary” changes there will be little sympathy from the Public. The cuts to budgets in general are now having a detrimental effect in the service you, the public, receive. There are now fewer cops on the streets than any time in the last decade. This Government is hell bent on seeing the service fail. If the Police fail then it opens up the argument for privatisation of key functions, and eventually the service as a whole. Look at Lincolnshire Police and the takeover by G4S of civilian posts – a company that couldn’t even fulfil its requirements at the Olympics.

Moreover, look at the way they are trying to introduce local Crime Commisioners – the 1st real step in affiliating the A-Political Police service to Political Parties. Please, look further than the surface issues over pay & conditions and think what it all means. We have a Police Service to be proud of and was. It broken. Ask yourself – why do we need to fix some thing that isn’t broken.

What other job within the public sector compares to it?

Soldier ?

Not point scoring or anything, but I hope anybody reading this who voted Tory last election feels some regret about that now.

This government makes me ashamed of my country.

what other job in the public sector do you get spat on , punched, stabbed, shot, killed,?

We are the only ones who need to justify ourselves if we act professionally and fairly we are bomb proof.

We are no longer a protected species, its open season on police at the moment, we need to stick together, more than ever.

Exactly the reasons why people have lost so much trust in the police. It was a great shame none of the police who post on here expressed any anger and betrayal against their colleagues who acted so horrendously following the hillsbrough disaster, but are know happy to ride a wave of public support following the murders of 2 of their number.

what other job in the public sector do you get spat on , punched, stabbed, shot, killed,?

Nursing and teaching are two that I can think of off the top of my head.

Bregante, nice words. I’ve been in the job since 97, moral is terrible at the ‘mo but I work with some amazing professional people. I won’t say much more except that I love my job (afo) and I have seen stuff that no one can imagine.
I can count on one hand the amount of Xmas I have spent with my family, I have missed countless important family events, bike events, and put up with abuse no normal person would be expected to put up with.
When I retire I am going to treat my wife to the best goddam holiday with my lump sum!!!!!
To all my colleagues (regardless of force) please please stay safe…..

gonefishin
get real , for christ sake
not saying they are not very hard jobs, but not in the same league as police.Try it for a few years

The Police do not have ANY of the employment rights everyone else has

The police have a **** load more rights than any soldier has. They’re being similarly sliced up and operate under far more dangerous conditions (I know it’s not a competition but still).

gonefishin
get real , for christ sake
not saying they are not very hard jobs, but not in the same league as police.Try it for a few years

And the police duties aren’t in the same league as the army and RM. Try it for a few years.

You asked which public sector jobs that those things happen to people and I supplied examples. If you think that Nurses and Teachers aren’t spat on, punched, otherwise threated with abusive language and violence, and yes on occasion killed (although thankfully it is very rare) then I’m afraid that it is you that needs to get real.

I made no comparison between anyones job, and none of those are jobs that I would want to do, but if you want to evoke sympathy then you will have to come up with something else.

Incidently I’m fairly sure that there are other public sector workers who experience similar threats and my expamples are not exhaustive.

I’ll start with my career; full time armed forces (RM; 4 years and counting) so we know why I hold the views I do.

From where I stand, policing is not a glamorous job. You deal with scum and often have to bite your tongue. I’d rather be in the Green Zone of Afghanistan than the streets of Great Britain because I know I have a greater degree of freedom, ie I can kill someone, provided it can be justified.

I don’t get the impression the Police have that same luxury.

I would rather the Police be given more of many things; power, funding, numbers and most importantly the protection and freedom to remove the scum from our streets and keep them off our streets.

Unfortunately, as we’re often told by the media, the Police don’t want to be routinely armed (how true this is I don’t know) but I’d be safer in the knowledge that a greater proportion, not necessarily all (as there are some I wouldn’t trust with fire arms, even in my job) were armed with a pistol at the very least in high risk areas, for example London & other major cities.

I won’t drone on but I am one (of few it seems at times) who supports the Police but as with many, am incredibly frustrated by their lack of ability to see things through. I understand a lot of it is political interference but it needs to change, who ever is responsible.

Cheers, MU3266.

That’s incorrect; what the Police object to is the systematic attack on the Service as a whole

and

This Government is hell bent on seeing the service fail

Mildred, I’m sure there are reasonable arguments to be made from the rank and file side but when you come out with stuff like that you shouldnt be surprised if the public doesnt hear them. We just see successive Home Secretaries being booed off the stage at the Federation annual conference.

I’ll be the next bad guy 🙁 for the record one of my siblings is a DC with West Mercia.

I have to support the Governments intentions to reform and improve the Public Sector – whether that’s through changes to Pensions or Performance Related Pay. The private sector have had these ‘motivational tools’ in place for twenty years now and it is best practice and should be adopted by the Public Sector.

How the rest of these reforms are being implemented is controlled and managed by local Police Forces. They don’t have to slash recruitment or cut-back anywhere IF they can make efficiency improvements instead.

Efficiency here means reducing paperwork and improving methods to minimise inefficient use of expensive resources (coppers!) and keep said resources focused on their core business i.e policing the streets.

The biggest problem seems to be that local Police ‘management’ take the easier (and publicly less acceptable) route of slashing recruitment and cutting staffing levels because it’s easier and less acceptable to the public. It also upsets the Minister who’s asking them to save money – thereby reducing the likelyhood (they hope) that they’ll be asked to save any more money.

MSP,
There is no room at all in the police for corrupt or violent police officers, who use the uniform as a power trip.Lets get that straight.
When i am dealing with a cocaine fuelled bodybuilder whos only aim is to rip my head off, what do you think will be going through my mind at the exact moment he is attacking me?
backup will probably be 5 minutes away
i will have my CS spray
i will have my baton
i will have my fists
what tactics will i use to ensure i only use reasonable force to detain this crazed drug fuelled madman?
ill do anything i need to at that point, shall i tell you why?
i will be terrified, and potentially fighting for my life, so if i need to punch him in the face, drag him to the floor, push him into the ground, gouge his eyes, i will do.i wll do that until i have him subdued, and i am in control.If i didnt he would beat me , and keep beating me .
At that moment, reasonable force may be killing him!, thats what people who are not in these situations dont understand.
street fighting is not pretty, and officer fighting with a scrote on the street will never look good on video, ever.
At the time of defending myself i dont care what it looks like on video, i care about going home to my wife in one piece,
i care about the woman in the house who has just had a beating , or the old lady who has just been robbed. I only think about the consequences the day after, when i see the edited version on the news, the version that shos me as a haevy handed thug, when in fact the fuill story should show a police officer fighting for his life, but then that would not be good news would it

Wrecker, that’s crap. My duties are just as demanding as the Army and rm, unfortunately people like you don’t see the specialist side of policing. The police are bound by more red tape than any of hm forces (I was in the forces prior to the job so I know this. Fact)
Just a few things to consider-hm forces get, free health and dental care, low cost subsidised accommodation.. The police do more hours than teachers, fire and rescue and NHS staff.

We deal with the crap no one else wants… You try getting hold of social services at 2am!!!!!