They are not going to get have mutual protection by being at loggerheads with each other. And I’m not sure that any damage they have done to each others interests can be wiped away by simply ‘resuming normal service’.

The day the police join the pickets, thats when you know you’ve got a revolution

I support everything my police officer colleagues have said in this thread, there is no other job like it. Yes the military risk their lives every day and, like us, they knew what they were signing up to. Like my fellow officers I joined to complete 30yrs service with a decent pension at the end of it. This Government wants to change my contract without me having any choice in the matter. I cannot strike and although we have a federation, they have tried, and mostly failed, so far to defend our position. If this was really about saving money then why didn’t the Government accept our money saving proposals which would have saved the same if not more than the current proposals without the risk of devaluing and destroying the police service as we know it? And as for the ‘independent’ review that brought these proposals forward, Tom Windsor’s report mirrors that of a report made by Cameron some years ago and not only does he have connections with G4s he has now been given the role of her majesty’s chief inspectorate, despite never serving as a police officer. The Tories have done a brilliant job of turning the public against us in regards of pay and conditions, so much so that our views and opinions sound like nothing more than sour grapes now. The job is different to every other out there and should be treated differently, unless you are a serving officer it is now very difficult to see past the Tories spin. I will never be voting Conservative again.

Trevor.

Objectively policing isn’t a dangerous job. Even being in the military isn’t too dangerous unless you do bomb disposal. Dangerous jobs include window cleaning, fishing, oil and gas, farming, mining .. ermm , mining, best stop there.

The police in the UK are actually really rather accountable. Which goes a long way in explaining why they are so superior to many other police forces throughout the world.

A good example of the British police’s accountability is the huge systemic changes which occurred after the tragic case of Stephen Lawrence. Lessons were learnt and the police today is very different to the police before Stephen Lawrence’s death.

Constant criticism and a willingness to respond is what has got us the police forces which we have today. But also vital is the recognition of achievements and gratitude for an exemplary service when warranted.

They may well be more accountable than other forces, but there is still a long way to go. I accept that we can never have a perfect police force in an imperfect society, but just because our police are ‘better’ than other countries’ does not mean we should be complacent. Our police aren’t the best in the World, and it’s our duty as citizens to ensure we keep striving to make them so, through vigilance and criticism. This is for all our benefit.

Call-me-Dave has graced GMP with his presence today, no doubt for his photo op, then he’ll hot foot it back to the safety of the South East. I’m sure they’ll all be very pleased to see him

They may well be more accountable than other forces, but there is still a long way to go.

Again, worryingly – I heard what I think was a senior policeman from greater Manchester on the radio talking about the response to the Dale Cregan murders. He talked about how great it was how the public have responded, especially after the police have been getting a kicking from the newspapers recently, and how certain people just love to put the boot in (not quite in those words).

Erm yeah…. the police have been heavily criticised recently because many of them took part in a fairly wide-ranging and serious conspiracy to defame innocent dead people (including children) in order to cover up their own incompetence. A conspiracy which has only properly come to light decades later, after numerous attempts to whitewash and cover it up.

A little contrition might be in order you would think.

I didn’t hear the interview on the radio but I fail to understand what is wrong in reminding people that despite the damning events of Hillsborough all those years ago, there is also another side to policing. In fact I think it is rather timely to be reminded, and all the more so after the recent tragic deaths of two police officers in Manchester.

I think it would be fine to mention it, but some recognition of the fact that much of the criticism over Hillsborough was entirely justified might be in order.

If it had been put the way you put it I would have found it more palateable – it just came across as a bit of a moan that ‘oh we always get a hard time’. Maybe so, but in the case of Hillsborough quite understandably. I just find you get a lot of this ‘we have to stick together’ mentality from the police being expressed here and elsewhere, and a lack of willingness to criticise fellow officers even when they have clearly behaved terribly – which is rather worrying in terms of preventing future abuses.

Despite there seemingly being many officers on here not many were willing to offer an opinion on Hillsborough for instance – why is that? Don’t want to criticise their fellow officers, or believe they were wronged and still blame the fans?

I can understand why it happens but the ‘bunker mentality’ is not healthy IMO.

Fair enough I didn’t hear the radio interview so can’t argue with that. Although an example which everyone can relate to would have made your point more clearly, I would have thought.

As far as your little dig at coppers on this forum is concerned; it has long been clear to me that those who openly declare themselves to be coppers (I’m sure some probably don’t) are easily among the most sensible and rational forum users, and with which you can often engage in logical debate. Which isn’t by any means universal on here.

I am not in the least bit surprised that they don’t want to get bogged down arguing about policing on a mtb forum, even least about something as emotive as Hillsborough. In fact I suspect they probably often don’t even bother clicking on “police threads”, in the same way as I don’t bother clicking on some of the political threads – specially ones concerning trade unions.

But judging by their past contributions, unlike apparently you, I have absolutely no reason to believe that any would reject the conclusion which now accepted by everyone, including the police force concerned, that Hillsborough was anything other than a total policing disaster with tragic consequences.

As far as your little dig at coppers on this forum is concerned;

Not really meant as a dig – I just worry that there is still a ‘stick together and protect your own’ mentality within the police which is understandable but not healthy. Maybe I’m wrong.

Glitch bump.

Well said Ernie.

I have absolutely no reason to believe that any would reject the conclusion which now accepted by everyone, including the police force concerned, that Hillsborough was anything other than a total policing disaster with tragic consequences.

Only grudgingly accepted by some people, eg Norman Bettison. Is it safe to assume he is the only one?

There must be quite a number of people in the police force who have essentially gone along with this defamation/cover-up – either actively involved or keeping silent about it. Are they all going to be sacked/prosecuted? Sorry but it seems unlikely.

I haven’t had a chance yet to read the most recent stuff that’s come out about Hillsborough, and will do so at some point. But regarding the 150+ (or whatever it was) police statements that were altered to cover up incompetency, was it 150+ officers being told to alter their own statements and then doing so, or was it 150+ officer’s statements being altered by bosses to remove parts that criticised the senior officers? My understanding was that it was the latter, alterations made by senior officers to keep themselves out of the shit, rather than 100’s of officers hiding stuff. Is that incorrect?

its not incorrect greatape but the police (and ambo drivers) who had their statements altered did not speak out, assuming they got to see/ sign off on their final statement

assuming they got to see/ sign off on their final statement

That’s what I’m wondering – did they know?

Druidh- I would do but we have a wee week and a bit old that only got out of hospital yesterday so I’ll be at home for the foreseeable!

I work with officers that were working at Hillsborough that day, all I will say is don’t believe everything you are told and maybe read some of the officers statements to see how traumatic it would have been for them, then and now.

I work with officers that were working at Hillsborough that day, all I will say is don’t believe everything you are told

Everything you are told by who?

One officer at Hillsborough who was pensioned off young due to Hillsborough “trauma” is now living happily in France… . Now where’s that smiley with a zip through the mouth?

And several more officers are not! Read the statements, imagine how you would feel in that situation and make your own judgements. In my opinion it wasn’t just the fault of the police, yes the commanders in charge that day made bad decisions but the PCs on the ground did what they could in the face of a disaster. All parties contributed to what happened that day and if you read individual statements and speak to people who lived near the ground there certainly was drunkeness and many fans without tickets and officers abused and spat on when tending to the injured and that is fact. All I ask is that you don’t just take what is said in the media as gospel. The evidence is available for everyone to view.

Trevor.

I work with officers that were working at Hillsborough that day, all I will say is don’t believe everything you are told and maybe read some of the officers statements to see how traumatic it would have been for them, then and now.

I am sorry it was traumatic for the officers then and now at Hillsborough. As traumatic for the 96 dead, their families and friends. For the 23 years of lies. For the coverup. Yes I have read most of the report and the statements and how do they sleep at nights. The depths these officers plumbed and the lies they told, ok some were factual but many many many were not. DO NOT DARE TELL ME HOW TRAUMATIsED OFFICERS WERE BY HILLSBOROUGH, HAVE SOME RESPECT.

Yeah don’t believe everything you read! Especially if its a police statement, there is a 75% likelihood its been altered (fact 116 of 164 statements, sorry recollections altered) equally anything out of senior police officers mouths.

I truly cannot believe you have the audacity to make that statement. Truly shameful. When should we start believing what we read, the last week and half or the last 23 years?

Yeah a coppers lot may be difficult but do yourselves a favour, stop covering things up, stop trying to mislead the public. When you make a mistake stand up and answer for it rather than besmirching the good name of 96 dead souls. OK I am close to Hillsborough but look at all the other lies and coverups.

Desperately sorry two officers were killed by a scrote BUT take a damn good look at what the police force is. Norman Bettison, I rest my case, even after the findings last week he still insisted the fans contributed, he has since apologised, too little too late Its been a 23 year coverup and not a single officer came forward, not a single officer was man enough to say this is wrong they all closed ranks and thought that they could hide the truth.

If anyone crosses you on this thread, use the ultimate insult; ‘pleb’

😆

In seriousness. Hillsborough and two officers killed were sharing Beeb news coverage with some birds tits (who cares? He wont be a popular King just like his Dad wouldnt)….nowhere near the Queen and now Plebgate. Wtf.

Didn’t the Report deal with any contribution from drunken and ticketless fans to the disaster?

thorpie – Member

All I ask is that you don’t just take what is said in the media as gospel. The evidence is available for everyone to view.

People are using the evidence provided to the Hillsborough Independent Panel, including scrutiny from Lord Justice Stuart-Smith – should they not believe that ? Do you have no faith in the British judiciary ? Are you a copper ? 😕

That’s what I’m wondering – did they know?

Heard a retired officer on 5Live say he had seen a scanned copy of his statement only recently (as a result of the investigations) and it had paragraphs missing now that he had written at the time. So he was unaware of the editing.

Pingu66, you clearly and rightly feel strongly about Hillsborough, but as with all groups you are lumping all officers together. From what Ive read of the Ian Thomlinson case he shouldnt have been in the force, he had resigned once and then been accepted back which is mind boggling.

I just worry that there is still a ‘stick together and protect your own’ mentality within the police which is understandable but not healthy. Maybe I’m wrong

I spent 2 years on our covert anti corruption/professional standards/internal affairs unit using the same techniques we use against serious organised criminals on suspected ‘bent’ coppers. My very last job on that dept ended up with the subject going to prison. I left that dept on promotion back to response policing, and far from being some form of pariah my PCs thought my last job was cool and fished for stories. Most of us don’t want what we do being demeaned and undermined by the few.

As for Winsor’s “independent” review, his findings echo word-for-word a Cameron speech made before they got into power on how he thought the police should be reformed. We are not against change; Ive been in 10 years and the whole organisation, structures, goals etc constantly change. I don’t disagree with many of Winsor’s proposals in theory, but the overall result is to change it from being seen as a vocation to a short term career, which will serve to lose the sense of dedication that it requires.

I’ve seen and done things that have reduced me to tears, I’ve seen the best and the worst in human nature, I’ve saved lives, and I’ve been robbed of the opportunity to do so by seconds. I joined at 30 and took a substantial paycut to do so. We’re not all knuckle draggers- I’m not the only officer in my station with a PhD. The breadth of experiences I’ve had, the massive highs, the sense of family (check out officers nationwide offering to work in GMP to cover their officers to attend the funeral) and just occasionally the difference I’ve managed to make to someones life makes it the best job in the world. Sometimes.

Pingu66, of course I have respect for people that were killed at Hillsborough, how can you even suggest I don’t. All I am saying is that I am able to speak with at least two officers, who were there, trying to rescue and save fans and I have the benefit of a different view (and opinion) of what happened that day. I am not covering up any policing mistakes as clearly there were some and amongst other issues (communication for example) these can be seen in the report. The mistakes made by police that day were not made at PC level and as well as having the upmost respect and sympathy for the 96 dead I also have the upmost sympathy and respect for my colleagues who were there, faced with the disaster, and just like the families who lost loved ones, a day doesn’t go by where they are not affected in someway as well. Please don’t try and twist my words and turn my comments into something they are not, our police service has taken a battering this last few weeks and although down I still remain committed and proud to be a Police Officer.

Trevor.

I read thorpies post as differentiating between coppers on the ground and management during and after the event rather than a slight on the fans and their families, but I am more distant than Pingu.

The front line officers reacted as you would hope they would, and I haven’t heard of specific criticisms of their actions?

Everybody in that ground who survived was traumatised whether they wore a football shirt or a uniform. Like I said, you sometimes see the best in human nature displayed…

crashtestmonkey, Thankyou, exactly as you said.

Trevor.

I agree that not all police are bad, however and as a generalisation, they close ranks to protect the guilty. Yes it was senior officers responsibility etc and yes I am 100% positive most police are doing and trying to do a fantastic job. Even though generally my experiences have been negative, occasionally due to my own actions and other times through no fault of my own.

I can relate stories of over zealous policing and lies in court on a personal level and I am not a bad person, fortunately the video evidence supported my version of events. Equally the media tend to portray the negative as news rather than the positive. But when the likes of Simon Harwood are treated with kid gloves you have to ask questions. Additionally the the police watchdog is asking for more powers after many many corruption allegations and only a handful of disciplinary actions against officers.

I have no doubt your jobs are difficult and the force needs reform however that will take time and where we are at today has been brought about by the actions of a few aggressively reported in the media. I t goes on at a lower level all the time and different forces have different reputations.

I wish we had a force we could trust implicitly but we are a long way from that and probably not in the next 20 years. Your job is also getting harder and you are at the front line of a fundamentally flawed judicial system. It must be so frustrating seeing people you know are guilty walking away or getting of relatively lightly.

I do acknowledge the difficulties you all face BUT it should not take public inquiries to own up to them. Even relatively small mistakes police cover up rather than stepping up and admitting “yes we could have done better”. The nature of your job means mistakes will be made, we are all human. However its how we act when we make mistakes that makes us stand out. Regrettably as well its not the sort of job where you could operate as a lone wolf as you need to rely on your colleagues therefore it becomes very difficult to acknowledge the issues that you see.

Liverpool Matrix officers fired for selling seized goods on ebay.

Liverpool Chief Inspector sacked for gross misconduct.

Liverpool constable sacked for trawling files for vulnerable women to date.

Liverpool Officer sacked for visiting prostitutes

Unfortunately the media fail to report generally the great work the police often do. So for balance.

Liverpool the conviction of Anthony Walkers killers

Liverpool, conviction of Graham Heaps for killing a 3 year old.

Liverpool conviction of Rhys Jones killers

Liverpool conviction of the killers of James Bulger.

I can still say hand on heart that most officers are trying to do a good job, unfortunately the issues are spread right through your ranks that make it difficult to firstly do your job and secondly be respected by the public at large.

Its a difficult job nobody doubts that, you have the addition of relying on the judicial system after you have done your job. You often need the tenacity to uncover events and see things probably nobody should. Personally I treat officers I meet with respect, occasionally they have not deserved that respect.

However it doesn’t help when people start calling people plebs, I am unsure what Hora does, I only hope they are not an officer!

From the bottom of my heart from what I have read I believe that the police on here are doing a genuinely good job, I wish they were alas good.