So who will be the first Robocop for OCP G4S?

I do not beleive that anybody’s life should be shortened due to the work they do, sad fact is though in ‘modern’ britain, the small gains that workers made after the war through to the 1970’s have been eroded.

there are still some people who blame the trade unions—truth is british economy has been in decline for a long time, short term vision/policies.

The more advanced economies put a premium on skill,this country just abuses it– the income differentials are still rising, the strains on social relations are there for all to see– the police are an organ of the state, their job is undoubtedly getting ‘worse’– more social problems, its an endless loop– the same faces in and out of custody.

Until we get a govt that truly puts people before profit, this is only going to get worse.IMHO- there appears no ‘party’ who advocates an alternative to reductionist capitalism, i live in hope, as history shows things can change very quickly

He may well have to work over 40 years to get less pension now.can you imagine two 59 year old cops turning up to a pub full of fighting drunks in Salford/ any other city on a Saturday night?

Lots of other job threads have pointed out that there are no more jobs for life. It may be that a 50+ year old policeman will be an ex-policeman and working elsewhere.

It’s all part of the race to the bottom, that the government (any hue) believes in.

What we are seeing, that a lot of people seem to be willfully ignoring, is the premeditated and systematic dismantling of the state as we know it. Its main functions – Health, Education, Policing are being primed, ready to be handed lock, stock and barrel, to the Tories friends in the private sector. So they can then ruthlessly exploit essential services to benefit themselves handsomely.

And once its done, it’ll be irreversible. People need to wake the **** up! And fast!

Whilst some of the anti-tory rhetoric on here is tiresome, predictable and boring; I wholeheartedly agree with this. It’s being snuck through with minimal noise and it’s a disgrace.
I’m absolutely stumped as to what to do about it though. I won’t vote labour.

Look at the life sacrifices police officers make for a career. Even our forces sign up to 22 years. I chose the police as I did not want to be a solider.

They don’t get their pension after 22 years! They have to go and get jobs.

mildred – Member

Isnt running down the national services the first step towards privatisation?? The tories love that word. If they hold onto the next election the G4S will be policing the streets/ picking up the injured / putting out fires. Bankrupt health boards / hospitals… one step towards privatisation. Just a matter of time.

100% correct. misleading…

…Which you may find interesting when you consider that our Home Secretary Theresa May is a Pru shareholder.

..or that Lord (John) Reid and Lord Condon are on the board of G4S or that G4S make announcements supporting Nick Clegg, or that one of G4S most important periods of growth in the UK occurred under a Labour Government. Their tentacles are everywhere!

rudebwoy – Member
IMHO- there appears no ‘party’ who advocates an alternative…

Seems to be a lot closer to the mark. So if this is he case ie, not just a Tory-ideology led process (nice rhetoric, politically convenient, but factually misleading) why are no parties stopping it? Once we understand that, then serious debate can happen.

Reading this thread it seems this government (and I’m not saying the previous one was any/much better) are royally shafting public services generally and paying their chums in the private sector large amounts of money at the same time. Scandalous and in my mind criminal. I think most people seem to agree with this POV. I would hazard most in the private sector agree in principle but just say “we have already been stitched up, why shouldn’t you be?” – a sad way of looking at things especially as most of the jobs where you are in danger seem to be public – police / army / ambulance / nursing / prison service etc. I’m sure there are a few private workers that face the same risks but they are probably the ones working for crap wages whilst their bosses rake in the ££’s from their political chums. And the inevitable rotten eggs in each service are the ones the media focus on 🙁 Unfortunatley there doesn’t seem much any of us can do about it?
+2 for Mildred’s comments!

It is a Tory ideology led process, it’s just that (New?) Labour also largely follow Tory ideology now. We have no real choice.

They don’t get their pension after 22 years! They have to go and get jobs.

No, but they do get it at 55, the same as Police Officers. And bear in mind that each individual service man or woman does not actually contribute any of their earnings into their pension unlike everyone else in Public service (though i believe this is right and proper due to sacrifices elsewhere).

On the topic of getting other jobs, in my experience a great many wish to continue their public service and become Police Officers. Most transfer their pensions across and are now in the sorry state that they won’t get that back in the way they were sold it. Apparently that is the way to say thank you for a life of public service at the sharp end.

IMHO- there appears no ‘party’ who advocates an alternative…

SNP. 1000 more police officers in Scotland since 2007.

The bottom line is that private companies want to take over public services as its a gravy train. And the present government are itching to hand them the lot. The holy grail. A massive state funded private monopoly.

But when these ’employees’ (or nurses, police officers, firemen etc as you may more likely know them) contracts are transferred over to them, they want minimal ‘liabilities’ coming with them. They only want assets. Hence the all out assault on pensions, terms and conditions, wages and employment rights.

Expect it to intensify, not get better, any time soon

I was just wondering where all the usual right wing Thatcherite suspects have gone. Very notable by their absence recently. Will no one stand up for Dave and his puppet?

I am optimistic, history repeatedly shows that is how social change comes about, we have a bankrupt political system, incapable of any progressive policies, so a downward spiral of cuts, leading to more social unrest, i wonder who will be called on by the state to ‘uphold’ its legitimacy…..

Last time we had open class war, the miners strike….. the then govt rewarded its guards,things seem very different now…..

I was just wondering where all the usual right wing Thatcherite suspects have gone. Very notable by their absence recently. Will no one stand up for Dave and his puppet?

I’ll blow my horn— The Hound of Gore will awake

For those interested, the military pension was changed (for the worse) in 2005. It changes again (even worse) in April 2015. What little details and examples that have been published so far makes for grim reading. A few friends I served with are now police officers and the pension pro’s and con’s aren’t really comparable. There’s quite a few differences between the schemes.

From where I stand, policing is not a glamorous job. You deal with scum and often have to bite your tongue. I’d rather be in the Green Zone of Afghanistan than the streets of Great Britain because I know I have a greater degree of freedom, ie I can kill someone, provided it can be justified.

I don’t get the impression the Police have that same luxury.

I would rather the Police be given more of many things; power, funding, numbers and most importantly the protection and freedom to remove the scum from our streets and keep them off our streets.

Wow. Personally, I’m really glad that there aren’t too many police officers out there with views similar to your own. And have you ever heard of the term ‘policing by consent’? Thankfully, not many people in the UK want to see a fully armed police force. This is something I am grateful for, as an individual. The less guns around, the better.

We live in an imperfect society with an imperfect police force. The majority surely are well-meaning and want to make a difference in society, but as we’ve seen recently, with various cases of police corruption, false statements, cover-ups and even the unjustified killing of innocent people, there are far too many rotten apples in the barrel. And someone earlier made a comment of how quiet those on here who are in the police were over the Hillsborough affair; there is a growing public perception of how the police as an institution operate a code of silence when it comes to their own who transgress. This is somewhat understandable, but it does not make for positive public relations.

I note that some of you use the term ‘scum’ to describe certainly some of the sort of people the police have to deal with. If you have this ‘them and us’ mentality, then there will always be division, mistrusts, fear and hatred. And conversly, those who you consider to be ‘scum’ will see the police as ‘scum’ themselves. That we live in a society with great wealth but such searing social division is an uncomfortable truth we all have to deal with, and surely the answer lies not in consolidating and enhancing such divisions, but looking at ways boundaries and barriers can be broken down between people?

The Hillsborough affair, the death of Ian Tomlinson and the deaths of too many people in police custody show that we must have a more accountable police force, if we are to move forward as a society.

I am grateful to the OP for putting forward their side of the story. We need dialogue between all members of a society, and no group should be without an effective voice.

we have a Morally bankrupt political system

I know what you mean, but whilst I’m on my soapbox also consider that 23 out of 29 cabinet members are multi-millionaires at the most recent estimate. Indeed a recent documentary (BBC or C4 i think) suggested that 60% of Parliament are millionaires when property is taken into account.

And have you ever heard of the term ‘policing by consent’? Thankfully, not many people in the UK want to see a fully armed police force. This is something I am grateful for, as an individual. The less guns around, the better.

Mike – in a recent survey 4 out of 5 police officers didn’t want arming either. And the first thing GMP chief constable said after the shootings were regarding his support for policing by consent, and an outright rejection of routine arming of police, before the usual right-wing-dog-whistle calls even came

In terms of job security and pensions a few have mentioned HM Forces 22 years as a comparrison. Just to note, large sections of the RAF just get an initial 9 year contract i believe. However, in the present climate of cost savings and contracts not being extended, this is softened by a substantial payment at 8 years to stay on for the full 9.

And how many of those millionaires do you reckon will pop up on the boards of the beneficiaries of their privatisation policies. Getting paid squillions a year as non-exec directors

I predict, as soon as this lot are voted out, the following….

George Osbourne and Dave – straight onto the boards of various banks as a reward for kicking banking reform into the long grass.

Andrew Lansley – Board of whichever US healthcare provider is presently making the most out of the NHS

Theresa May – G4S. Guaranteed!!

Jeremy Hunt – Sky/News International

Gove/Pob – Board of whichever US Education provider is presently making the most out of the ‘free school’ Education system

You can predict the lot. Labour were equally as shameless. I can’t see any of them out-doing Blair for sheer hard-faced opportunism and lining his pockets. They’ll all have a good go though

Getting paid squillions a year as non-exec directors

I don’t know how they get away with it. How can such an obvious conflict of interest be permitted?

I know what you mean, but whilst I’m on my soapbox also consider that 23 out of 29 cabinet members are multi-millionaires at the most recent estimate. Indeed a recent documentary (BBC or C4 i think) suggested that 60% of Parliament are millionaires when property is taken into account.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/oligarchy

the old aristo’s were happy with some gongs and titles, the newer mob just like money and lots of it– tis reward for services to capitalism inc, if i remember when chavez was first elected, he was quick to stop cronyism, — i would take all their ill-gotten off them, make em live like the rest of us— buck palace– the worlds finest fully manned toilets……..

wrecker – Member
Getting paid squillions a year as non-exec directors

I don’t know how they get away with it. How can such an obvious conflict of interest be permitted?

It’s strange, it’s similar to the phone hacking and the pres thing. We all “knew” it went on, but it took a specific combination of events and circumstances to make it become an issue in the public consciousness, action to taken and hopefully things to change.

We all “know” this is how politics works these days – but a specific combination of events and circumstances need to take place before anything can be done. And it really,really needs to happen

Getting paid squillions a year as non-exec directors

I don’t know how they get away with it. How can such an obvious conflict of interest be permitted?

It’s because the poor hard up dears don’t get paid enough as an MP, they need it to make ends meet.

It’s because the poor hard up dears don’t get paid enough as an MP, they need it to make ends meet.

I’d like to make their ****ing ends meet…… 😀

Quite depressing all this, isn’t it? Someone asked- what’s the alternative?
I have to say- for me personally, up here in Scotland, it’s independence.
I know there’s a shitload of things still to be worked out, and it’s not gonna be cheap. But I am sick of successive Westminster governments shafting us up here, most notably the current Tory (I mean, coalition) one. We didn’t vote them in.. The south of England did – as they almost always will.
There’s no way the Uk electoral system is going to be reformed (or downsized/rationalised)- turkeys don’t vote for Christmas after all. So what’s the alternative?
Get the hell out and try and come up with a better system.
I realise this is a bit off topic, ive already stated my admiration for the job the police continue to do in the context of ever- more difficult circumstances.. But things aren’t going to get better with the next government- even if it’s a labour one.

I’m a southerner but def not a tory, can i move to the utopia that will be an independant Scotlandshire? Please.

The Hillsborough affair, the death of Ian Tomlinson and the deaths of too many people in police custody show that we must have a more accountable police force, if we are to move forward as a society.

The police in the UK are actually really rather accountable. Which goes a long way in explaining why they are so superior to many other police forces throughout the world.

A good example of the British police’s accountability is the huge systemic changes which occurred after the tragic case of Stephen Lawrence. Lessons were learnt and the police today is very different to the police before Stephen Lawrence’s death.

Constant criticism and a willingness to respond is what has got us the police forces which we have today. But also vital is the recognition of achievements and gratitude for an exemplary service when warranted.

i think this nicely sums up the current governments attitudes to police

the 56-year-old chief whip: “Best you learn your f****** place. You don’t run this f****** Government. You’re f****** plebs,” after he was stopped from using the main gate.

“Policing by consent” seems to be a phrase trotted out on a regular basis. On a practical level what does it actually mean and how does British “policing by consent” actually differ from policing in other democratic countries?

See you tomorrow?

i think this nicely sums up the current governments attitudes to police

Not being a Whitehall-ian Peeler that doffs his cap to the political classes – If he’d spoken to me in the manner that’s been alleged / reported (after a suitable warning), he would have been lifted fairly sharpish and conveyed to the station – in line with the Governments drive to tackle yobbish behaviour!

Policing by consent is a polite term for saying that the majority of people abide by most laws most of the time. It relies on a consensus that the police(vevlet glove)are better than the army(iron fist)for social control.

That is their function, to maintain social control, this breaks when those being policed no longer accept this concept, certain parts of cities will have this phenomena, it can happen in industrial disputes and certainly in civil war.

no doubt you may hear a different spin on this, but it relies on a certain degree of co-operation to be effective

deluded – Member
Not being a Whitehall-ian Peeler that doffs his cap to the political classes – If he’d spoken to me in the manner that’s been alleged / reported (after a suitable warning), he would have been lifted fairly sharpish and conveyed to the station – in line with the Governments drive to tackle yobbish behaviour!

cant believe hes still in his job, im assuming that there is cctv all over the place there and im see no reason why the copper would lie

shouldve breathalysed him before he got on his bike, you can bet he was tanked up on port as well as his own enormous sense of self worth

If he’d spoken to me in the manner that’s been alleged / reported (after a suitable warning), he would have been lifted fairly sharpish and conveyed to the station

According to the Sun that is precisely the same attitude which the officers concerned took :

Despite his fury, the officers refused to budge and warned him that he would be arrested under the Public Order Act if he continued to abuse them.

Cabinet minister: Police are plebs

That article makes very interesting reading btw. This bit :

Right-winger and keen cyclist Mr Mitchell is a former shadow police minister and was until recently International Development Secretary.

A former investment banker, he is worth at least £2.2million and owns a number of swanky homes.

He lives in one of the most fashionable squares in Islington, North London, with his GP wife Sharon and their two daughters.

He also has a house in his Sutton Coldfield constituency in Birmingham and a property in the French ski resort of Val d’Isere.

……sounds like a classic piece of socialist/leftwing envy which I would expect to read in the Morning Star. We live in strange/interesting times.

his wikipedia entry shows him to be your average tory

tax avoidance and lobbying for cash

The Government needs to get the police back on side — before another wave of strikes leaves them desperate for cops’ support.

Just a bit of Sun ‘opinion’ in case you thought they had strayed to the left.

What this thread has shown is that people still want to join the force. Despite what the media or society throws up (riots, deaths of officers, eroded terms and conditions.), the thin blue line is getting thinner, colleagues are retiring and not being replaced. My force has a freeze on recruitment at present yet we need more officers. When this will happen, who knows.
What really annoys me is the media. Officers will often be criticised (and deservedly so), but what often gets unreported are the acts that save lives, and prevent disasters from happening.
It is a tough job, and yes I agree NHS and hm forces do a tough job too. Public servants are feeling the cosh of this government more and more, and you have pointed out that the govmt. alternatives are just as bad.
It is the small things that help, a colleague of mine saved a small child yesterday as she was choking. He was first on scene and his first aid saved the Childs life. The ambulance was another 5 minutes. Again because the paramedic was elsewhere and they too were stretched to the limit.
What is scary is what would happen should another spate of riots take hold. Would we(the emergency services) be able to provide you, the public, with the service you deserve?

The Sun under the ownership of Rupert Murdoch is never going to be “left-wing” rudebwoy. What is unusual and interesting is the Sun’s attacks on Tory politicians, specially from a perspective of their personal wealth and privileged backgrounds (something which the Daily Mail has also done recently btw)

Equally unusual and interesting is a Tory Party which is clearly relaxed about seriously antagonizing the police service. Yep, imo we live in strange/interesting times.

The Murdoch empire, the police and the government are making a pretence of being at loggerheads, normal service will soon be resumed, with loans of horses, knighthoods and expensive meals, as they all cosy up together for mutual protection.