Why do us lot accept shoddy goods ?

Hmmm, clumsy overweight weekend warriors breaking lightweight racing spec bike parts, funny that isn't it…….

what makes you think something is only a year in design/dev/test?

They could be working on 2012 models right now

True and I thought of that before I responded but with overlapped development of stuff then they cant take all the lessons learned from one years failures especially with the high lead times I expect they have producing in the far east. i.e. there will only be evolution year on year without fully addressing all the issues

"To be honest I dont believe that they do intense enough durability testing on parts".

WRONG, we have a bit of kit that simulates over ten years worth of riding, it sets the extremes of temperature sprays fresh and salt water etc, etc. Most companies that supply goods to the industry have this as well.

i heard years ago that the first electric filament lightbulb was still running in a castle in scotland somewhere. whether or not it's true i don't know, but the story illustrates nicely the point that over-engineering something can make it last 'indefinitely', so i'm afraid you're back to mr. bontrager's maxim.
i also can't help but chuckle when i see 'of course i didn't buy the article new, but who would have thought? the manufacturer didn't want to know when i asked about warranty!' 🙄

I hope the owner doesnt mind me reposting this pic (good effort BTW!)

If you tried to warranty any part on this bike and showed the manufacturer the picture of how you rode it he'd be perfectly entitled to tell you to go p1ss up a lamp-post.

Customer expectation is the problem.

WRONG, we have a bit of kit that simulates over ten years worth of riding, it sets the extremes of temperature sprays fresh and salt water etc, etc. Most companies that supply goods to the industry have this as well.

Does it also simulate loads whilst simulating the corrosion aspects you are talking about?

Wrong.

It is sold as a product an it's the product that has the warranty.
Your issue as a manufacturer vs supplier is completely different to your issue as manufacturer of the product v the consumer.

I'm not sure what you think I was suggesting here? I think you're getting confused with suppliers and distributors here, I'm talking from a design and manufacturers point of view, the distribution side of it and the consumer claim is irrelevant. The product is designed a set way, to last a set time. The warranty is the company acceptance of any stupid design mistakes or any manufacturing faults.

That mud-covered bike is perfectly acceptable and normal UK riding. Your warranty should cover such occasional use as it can be expected in a normal use of an MTB. If you're selling super-light race parts then you might well put a disclaimer on them pointing out they're not designed for conditions like those above, but it wouldnt sell well.

LOL at bling
Someone will be here in a minute telling you that MTB should be able to handle that…

we have a bit of kit that simulates over ten years worth of riding, it sets the extremes of temperature sprays fresh and salt water etc, etc

do you have …. like a robot arm holding a rock that periodically whacks the tested component?

😀

The warranty is the company acceptance of any stupid design mistakes or any manufacturing faults.

Yup so that does not include the muppet using it at the other side of the scale.

do you have …. like a robot arm holding a rock that periodically whacks the tested component?

Water/keyboard interface…

LOL
Maybe I should ask fro a new one underwarranty

juan – Member

> do you have …. like a robot arm holding a rock that periodically
> whacks the tested component?

Water/keyboard interface…

LOL
Maybe I should ask fro a new one underwarranty

Just send your rock back to me and I'll replace it foc Juan

Yup so that does not include the muppet using it at the other side of the scale.

Yes it does. The whole point is that there IS a scale and it should operate anywhere within it, but if you take it off the scale it's not covered. It doesnt include someone crashing it, but it does include someone using it in muddy conditions. The point is that it should stand up to what can be expected of its normal use. If the public would normally use it occasionally in such muddy conditions then it should be designed as such, rather than designed as the manufacturer wants and then whinge when the user doesnt use it on clean dry trails.

juan – you do have some odd thought processes going on here.

When sitting down to design something the engineer should:

Assess what function it should perform.
Assess what what conditions it will be used in, including any reasonable extremes (UK market, plenty of mud).
Assess what limitations it may have (weight/speeds etc)

and then design for that part to last AT LEAST its warranty period in those conditions, or state when it is sold that it should not be used in those conditions. A good example would be watches – they're mostly designed to be splash proof because despite not being designed as divers watches most watches will at some point get a soaking or be taken swimming. The expensive watches that are not waterproof specifically state in their instructions/warranty that they are NOT WATERPROOF in any way.

Thanks druidh you are too kind 😉

LOL at bling
Someone will be here in a minute telling you that MTB should be able to handle that…

coffeeking already did 😉

There are some **** strange people on here who think that parts should not be designed to work within normal riding extremes. No wonder some parts fail early if there are engineers like you guys designing them. The old thinking on this was that if someone took your parts to the extremes you were glad to warranty it and learn how to improve the parts, not cry because someone used it a bit hard.

I'm perfectly happy with how all my bits and bobs have held up and performed in the last year (apart from my rear hub which needed new bearings after only 3 months).

Pikes have problem with losing travel and leaking through motion control, but after a year of abuse I don't mind too much, and a service is really needed anyway.

This thread should be sent back to the manufacturer. 🙂

There are some **** strange people on here

you can leave that sentence right there 🙂

There are some **** strange people on here who think that parts should not be designed to work within normal riding extremes.

You are wrong again sorry.
The kit on that bike is not designed to take that amount of abuse and saying "normal British weather/riding conditions" makes no difference.

The stantions will be scrathed to f@ck and back, the rear mech only stayed on by a wing and a prayer, the chainrings will have worn down to ninja stars after an hour or so of grinding, the BB will be stuck solid and I would EXPECT all of that.

That's not a manufacturing/design fault it's a common sense FAIL.

In most other countries, people don't ride when it's wet, they go mushroom hunting

This is a silly thread, but I have learnt one valuable thing that I shall take away from it. 🙂

Someone will be here in a minute telling you that MTB should be able to handle that…

oo..eee, over here

I think a mountain bike should be designed to cope with that
Some of the components may well clog up with mud & either stop working or become hard to operate but after a wash down they should be serviceable again

The bike in the above pic is typical of people claiming they were JRA 😉

But this is the UK!!!111!!

but after a wash down they should be serviceable again

They are.

Change the scratched stantions, new chainrings, strip and grease bearings etc.

juan – Member

LOL at bling
Someone will be here in a minute telling you that MTB should be able to handle that…

My Ti hardtail looked like that during SITS 2008. None of the bits have been replaced since and it's still working fine. A wee bit of wear on the fork lowers is all the damage. That's XTR, Marz Corsas.

You are wrong again sorry.
The kit on that bike is not designed to take that amount of abuse and saying "normal British weather/riding conditions" makes no difference.

Your opinion may be that I'm wrong. My opinion (as a design eng and someone who's worked on bike frame design and in the retail side of it in the past) is that I'm right. Those conditions are extremes that can be expected a few times a year in the UK. If you dont want to have your parts used in those sorts of conditions you should specify that in your warranty or not sell it to countries where this ever occurs. If you do wish to sell to those countries, or without any terms in your warranty you should design to suit possible conditions. Its basic engineering. Whether lawyers choose to play with rights and wrongs later is a different matter, but this is why you'll find most bike/motorbike/car tests appear to be rediculously harsh on the product, because thats how good engineers work.

As with druids, my bikes look like that most weekends during the winter, I have no problems with any of my parts. Increased maintenance (stripping bearings and forks) due to excessively muddy conditions are included in my warranty conditions and are sensible maintenance. If I used it like that all the time and never performed any maintenance I'd expect it to break.

"you'll find most bike/motorbike/car tests appear to be rediculously harsh on the product, because thats how good engineers work".

Magura make both Motorbike and mountain bike products and I would take a guess that the kit they supply to the cycle industry is tested on the same machines that motorbike kit is tested on.

…as do Fox.. who also make suspension systems for off road buggies as well as motorbikes.

Manitou too… 🙂

Indeed several MTB manufacturers are also motorbike ones and will share test facilities, though they may or may not share test strategies, they are usually very harsh. The ones that are less likely to subject their products to such tests are the ones that buy in cheap products from a catalogue of designs and just sell them on. These parts are often badly engineered or vastly over-engineered to compensate for this. Or of course they're copies of products that have been tested correctly.

In light of the fox fork problems I'd personally suggest they've under-designed or screwed up on their coating thicknesses and are not willing to accept it for a relatively small number of units sold – but that people should be aware that they need to maintain their forks, especially when used in extremes of environment. You dont buy an F1 car and expect to race it endlessly for a year without maintenance if the manufacturer says it needs maintaining every race. You simply dont buy the F1 car, you buy something more suited. Like a Marzocchi product, or at least the older ones that go on endlessly and still buttery smooth… 🙂

While things do break, they should last a specific amount of time. The acceptable length of time is 1 year hence warranties being 1 year.

I got bored reading the thread so don't know if anyone else picked it up already, however, manufacturer's warranty does not affect statutory rights.

Stat' rights state it needs to be fit for purpose and last a reasonable period (paraphrasing). If you spent £1.5k on a frame and it broke a day, week or even six months outside the man' warranty period they (man')still have a legal obligation to sort you out (their options vary, check the regs).

That's perfectly reasonable, to think any product should only rightly last 1 year and/or is designed to do so is non-sensical verging on the daft 🙂

Stat' rights state it needs to be fit for purpose and last a reasonable period (paraphrasing). If you spent £1.5k on a frame and it broke a day, week or even six months outside the man' warranty period they (man')still have a legal obligation to sort you out (their options vary, check the regs).

no – it's the retailers responsibility not the manufacturers

They are.

Change the scratched stantions, new chainrings, strip and grease bearings etc.
Yep i concur. That is why the muppet on the other end of the product fail. Check the service intervals in MX. Guys change the fluids after each race. Actually I will always remember my first race. Finish the race and was riding in the paddock, every single bike from the bianchi team was being strip down to bare minimum and fully rebuild/regreased. I ask the mechanics if he was meant to do that, reply 'after each race yes'.

If I used it like that all the time and never performed any maintenance I'd expect it to break.

Well you do but most of the people on here don't. If you strip and regrease your BB after a muddy ride it will indeed last longer than a month. If you don't it won't.

no – it's the retailers responsibility not the manufacturers

Apologies for sloppy terminilogy, it is indeed the retailer 🙂

If you strip and regrease your BB after a muddy ride it will indeed last longer than a month.

If you go by the manufacturers instructions, you aren't supposed to do anything to HT2 bbs (at least for shimano ones).

Surely there's a difference between stuff wearing out through 'normal' and 'correct' use e.g. brake pads and tyres, and stuff wearing out because it's badly designed e.g. 40 quid BBs with insufficient sealing giving up within 3 months, SC Nomad/Blur frame bearings lasting 4 weeks etc (pre grease ports).

This problem is more painful than it was because stuff has gone up so much in price. A Shimano BB, cassette and chain is now >100 quid.

Besides Shimano BBs can't be user serviced ime.

Do the guys who use their 4x4s off road rebuild the whole thing on Monday evenings?

I don't get it, if you know a part is shite and/or prone to failing why buy it and then complain when it breaks or fails in a relativley short period of time?

All it it with RF BB's is shite bearings and sealing, why the hell not – if you're hell bent on owning one change the bearings for SKF ones and smear a bit of waterproof silicone around the outside of the seal where it meets the BB shell?

Of buy one with decent sealing in the first place?

It's not exaclty hte most expensive part in the world to replace is it, a perfectly good, well sealed BB with stainless bearings can be had for £30, if said BB lasts 6 months at say 8 rides per month, at 2 hours per ride thats a total of 96 hours riding, nearly a whole 32p per ride, bloody expensive hobby this.

How many sets of brake pads would you go through in this time @ £15 a pair?

That's perfectly reasonable, to think any product should only rightly last 1 year and/or is designed to do so is non-sensical verging on the daft

My point was kinda that it should last a minimum of the statutory. There has to be some limit on the length of time the company is responsible for it though, being reasonable.

Do the guys who use their 4x4s off road rebuild the whole thing on Monday evenings?

Hang on a minute you mean people actually ride them off road… Now that is just weird.