Why are Scottish and Welsh folk so patriotic ?

Yet ironically it’s insularity and xenophobia that may well pull the UK out of Europe, and lead to the breakup of the UK.

And ever so nearly did in 2014.

And ever so nearly did in 2014.

Scotland is much more outward-looking than the UK as a whole – 2014 was about that, not insularity and xenophobia, completely the opposite.

Scotland is much more outward-looking than the UK as a whole

What are you waffling about? How do you know that, whatever gave you that idea?
Jeez, where does the BS stop!?!?
So if england wanted to be indy = xenophobia
If some people in the Uk wanted a divorce from teh EU = xenophobia
Scotland want indy = openmindedness

Bollocks.

From the Auld Alliance to today’s arguments about refugees, Scotland has been more interested in other peoples and countries – kinda helps also that so many Scots emigrated.

I’m just countering the daft suggestion that Scottish independence is about insularity and xenophobia, when it’s more about getting away from our increasingly insular and xenophobic neighbour.

All these tales of people treating you differently for not being English, doesn’t that make them xenophobic or is that OK if its just against the English?

I have always considered myself English rather than British but its not something that I think defines me, just somewhere where I was born.
One thing I have always wanted to know though, does every Scottish pub have a local called Tommy who is an expert on the national team and gets rather feisty after a few ales, like every pub in England seems to have a ‘jock’ character?

Who is we? There wasn’t ever a ‘we’.

That’d be the Welsh collective that you mentioned here.

EDIT:

All these tales of people treating you differently for not being English, doesn’t that make them xenophobic or is that OK if its just against the English?

Now we’ve gone from disdain to xenophobia! That’s as bad, if not worse, as confusing patriotism with nationalism.

I’m just countering the daft suggestion that Scottish independence is about insularity and xenophobia

And I’m demonstrating that anyone wanting a “no” to EU is not xenophobic, no more so than the scots wanting independence (or any english people who might want same).
Your scost being more openminded than anyone else stuff is still bollocks BTW.

gordimhor – Member
…Scots have a lot to take responsibility for such as their part in the slave trade…

Which part?

The part where a few establishment figures made a fortune, or the part where far more Scots (mainly Highlanders) were sold as slaves by the landowners? Not to mention those shipped over to the West Indies by Cromwell.

Surely them Iraqis and Egypians win that one?

Your history teaching is out of date – modern archaeology suggests that Britian first produced Bronze… you know there may be an epoch named after it 😀

Indeed Ben I hope the xenophobes don’t take control of the EU referendum

Love the openmindidness idea though 😉 no need to ask for the link !!!

Actually Ben, you may have a point. Look at the ownership of whisky and NS Oil. Good old Johnny Foreigner and his deep pockets, eh?. Meanwhile the rest of us are moaning about the French owning our utilities. I stand corrected 😉

atlaz – Member
Wait, we’re in a competition for who has the best history? Surely them Iraqis and Egypians win that one?

Nah, the Orcadians IMO.

So if the situation were reversed – that Wales was the dominant power and was destroying your English communities to serve its needs – you’re telling us that this wouldn’t be a factor in your annoyance?

I don’t believe you.

On another level, are the people of Staunton Harrold miffed that their farms were flooded to supply water to Leicester? I’ve no idea, I suspect most of them are dead now? But I doubt they were miffed that the water wasn’t personally for them, and I doubt they were miffed enough to care that other people cared enough about it that they harbored a grudge against those benefiting from it.

Which part?

The part where a few establishment figures made a fortune, or the part where far more Scots were sold as slaves?
That’d pretty much apply to any country you pick between Scotland and west Africa.

Indeed Ben I hope the xenophobes don’t take control of the EU referendum

Looking at who’s leading the In and Out campaigns, I’m in the unusual position of wanting both sides to lose 😉

It was my Welsh friends at college that taught me to
a) be English and not British
b) be proud of being English
As we were just moving into the era when English rugby dominated it was not a bad time (by the end of college) to be taught it 😀

Nationalism, patriotism. Its a diversion.

Blaming the English for reservoirs in Wales, But which members of the “English” should you be referring to? Whoever they were, they were going to do what they did regardless of whether it was in Wales, Scotland, England, Ireland, or further afield.

Scots were at the heart of the Empire, serving in great numbers in the military – but you have to ask yourself why that’s the case. Are Scots naturally more violent? Or was it that once Highland culture in particular was crushed after 1745, there wasn’t much else for young men to do?

Its about survival. You went where the money was, where a better future could have been.

It’s classic behaviour for all empires to recruit their cannon fodder from the peoples they’ve crushed

It is, including from its own nation. The English, Welsh, Scots, Irish all went off and did the bidding of its empire, just as the English, Welsh, Scots, and Irish running the show demanded it.

The landowners, the industrialists, business leaders, the politicians, royalty etc.

This belief in nationalism. Its a game, currently being played by the likes of Trump and Putin.

The simple fact is while we further down the food chain engage in petty nationalism/patriotism, those higher up, The landowners, the industrialists, business leaders, the politicians, royalty etc, have always been engaged in the class game.

So you should really be asking yourself who is to blame, not what nationality is to blame.

Nationalism, patriotism. Is a diversion. On this island it has always been about class.

We never asked to be!

Well in that case don’t blame the modern English.

Blame your distance ancestors from the 11 and 12th centuries and their economy based on pastoralism supplemented by inter clan cattle raiding.

I’ve they’d stuck their side of Offa’s Dyke all well and good. But if you are going to start interfering with the settled pastoral/arable economies of your big powerful Norman neighbours, you are going to start pissing them off.

Do you think the Norman’s really wanted to conquer Wales? It was difficult and expensive and didn’t generate any income.

They would much rather have been left alone to oppress the English and carve out mini kingdoms along the Welsh Marches.

Or was it that once Highland culture in particular was crushed after 1745

And as for Scots whinging about being oppressed. I think you’ll find that 500/600 years ago they were quite capable of doing a bit of oppression of their Southern neighbours. And if it weren’t for various Scottish interferences we wouldn’t have had a Civil war that as a percentage of population probably resulted in more English deaths than any other war in history.

1745 and the death of Highland cultue? Blame a Scottish dynasty and their repeated attempt to seize the crown of a country that no longer wanted them. If it hadn’t been for Bonny Prince ****ing Charlie the Highland Scots would have been fine.

But I won’t use the mistakes of people who lived by other rules in other eras to judge folk today.

Apart for the Germans…. Obviously.

On another level, are the people of Staunton Harrold miffed that their farms were flooded to supply water to Leicester? I’ve no idea, I suspect most of them are dead now? But I doubt they were miffed that the water wasn’t personally for them, and I doubt they were miffed enough to care that other people cared enough about it that they harbored a grudge against those benefiting from it.

Did Leicester invade Staunton Harrold, treat it less favourably for several centuries, ban its language and refuse to acknowledge its culture and history?

It’s really not at all difficult to see why the Welsh might not be entirely happy with their treatment, unless you decide you don’t want to.

The bitterness is astounding. Is it something in the water?

So you should really be asking yourself who is to blame, not what nationality is to blame.

Nationalism, patriotism. Is a diversion. On this island it has always been about class.

Class and nationality can’t be easily separated. The British Empire brought with it a set of ideas about soceity, money and markets.

In Wales, one of the arguments from London for removing Welsh from schooling was because it was seen as a language of emotion – not one for trade and business. So it was best removed.

There was also a disdain for Welsh culture, it was viewed as nice but of no real value. Instead sport was promoted because it helped to breed those competitive qualities needed for the marketplace.

These ideas have helped to mould modern day Wales.

Obviously I recognise it as a country in a strictly factual sense, but I would never identify as British unless ‘Scottish’ wasn’t an option, i.e. on customs declarations/passport forms etc.

You miss my point.

We are all taking part in a shared activity that groups us together mainly as *Brits*. Most of what we do is done as Brits. In other words, we watch the same TV, listen to the same music on the radio, read the same books, *mostly* talk about the same issues and so on.

Language is a big part of this – the language we all share. But there are plenty of other shared cultural and social experiences. This is why the UK is not just a political boundary.

Didn’t the British also bring torture, genocide, concentration camps, legalised rapes, murder, starvation and a whole other host of down right naughty things under the flag of ‘We are superior’

(and that was even after WW2)

As Scotland/Northen Ireland started out on a separate continent (Laurentia) to England/Wales (Avalonia), separated by the Iapetus Ocean, perhaps the differences in people are explained by the magnetic orientation in the rocks

perhaps the differences in people is explained by the magnetic orientation in the rock

Thanks Mikey – does that mean that if wear a magnetic bracelet of the correct orientation I can become Welsh/Scottish?

Didn’t the British also bring torture, genocide, concentration camps, legalised rapes, murder, starvation and a whole other host of down right naughty things under the flag of ‘We are superior’

Yes – we were committing those crimes in Kenya in the 1950s. Yet the myth of the benign, civilising empire persists.

Thanks Mikey – does that mean that if wear a magnetic bracelet of the correct orientation I can become Welsh/Scottish?

Yep! You can become any nationality you want, as long as you wear the appropriate, magnetised bracelet 😆

Molgrips, that beating thing for using the local language was still going on in the Highlands at the start of the 1970s, as I can vouch from personal experience.
Anyone overheard using the gaelic at the village school I attended was belted; a policy introduced by English incomers at the council’s Education department and enforced by an English incomer headmaster. English was the language of the educated upper classes and only village peasants used the old tongue. It took a long time to reverse that policy. Oppression has been pursued in so many ways.

English was the language of the educated upper classes and only village peasants used the old tongue. It took a long time to reverse that policy

You can see how this would happen as the upper classes bent over backwards in order to demonstrate the level of education and power by allowing French to be spoken in Parliament and allow so much French vocabulary to enter the English language. 😆

Yes – we were committing those crimes in Kenya in the 1950s. Yet the myth of the benign, civilising empire persists.

Is this ‘we’ the Welsh, or ‘we’ the British?

thinking of changing my username to ‘BlightySmith’ or ‘SouthernSoftie’ might help with my sense of identity. or do i have be a premium member to do that? just askin like.

Is this the right time to point out the the English (as in Anglo-Saxon) aren’t actually British (and should be deported back to Germany as the offspring of illegal immigrants that they are 😉 ), whereas the Welsh and southern Scots (and northern English I think) are Britons / British.

Stop worrying about other people and what their forefathers did to your forefathers and be yourself and who you want to be.
Countries are good for picking sporting terms and for creating economic blocks and providing services that can be used for the benefit of their citizens. Beyond that, not much use.

By the way can someone remind the right wingers that there were Ethiopians in ‘England’ before there were English – Abyssinian legions on Hadrian’s Wall. No point to that just amusing – to me if no one else.

Is this ‘we’ the Welsh, or ‘we’ the British?

I’m pretty sure that there wasn’t a Welsh empire.

Stop worrying about other people and what their forefathers did to your forefathers and be yourself and who you want to be.

‘xactly.

Stop worrying about other people and what their forefathers did to your forefathers and be yourself and who you want to be.

I’m Welsh and patriotic, unfortunately some need that I have to justify this.

I accept you as Welsh and patriotic.

You do realise better options are available?

The bicycle, the pneumatic tyre, penicillin, the telephone, TV, modern capitalism, the postage stamp… Ok we might have messed up on a few.

I’m Welsh and patriotic, unfortunately some need that I have to justify this.

Probably – all the decent stuff is piped to Manchester. The poor dears only have puddles left over.

Is this the right time to point out the the English (as in Anglo-Saxon) aren’t actually British (and should be deported back to Germany as the offspring of illegal immigrants that they are ), whereas the Welsh and southern Scots (and northern English I think) are Britons / British.

Check out Stephen Oppenheimer “Origins of the British” the ‘Saxons’ may well have been here for much longer (or maybe not).
The South Eastern Scots are mostly ‘Sassenachs’ (from memory I think that includes you Edinburgh folk).
The South Western Scots are Irish who could swim.
The Scousers are Vikings who could swim from Ireland.
The Western Isles/Shetland/Orkney are Norwegians.
Quite a few of the southern Welsh are Flandrians (may explain G’s success) whilst some of the Northern Welsh are Spanish.
All you Northerners are Vikings too…
Which leaves Cornwall and Wessex (look at the history of Wessex king’s names which suggest Anglo-Saxonised British names) as the true British.

CBA reading the whole thread but only two pages in and there was already some pretty lame Scottish ‘we’re better than you/more liked than you’ stuff going on. 🙁

I’m British, of mostly Welsh/Irish origin and have lots of family who either live in or come from Scotland. However you want to dress it up, being patriotic is always about saying ‘we’re better than that other lot over there’ in some way. It’s just ‘cool’ to be patriotic in Scotland and Wales whereas it isn’t in England.

In some ways it’s sad because we have partly lost our identity as a result. Mind you at least we don’t base our identity on a load of supposed traditions that were actually made up by the Victorians. 😉

DaRC_L – Member
Check out Stephen Oppenheimer “Origins of the British” the ‘Saxons’ may well have been here for much longer (or maybe not).
The South Eastern Scots are mostly ‘Sassenachs’ (from memory I think that includes you Edinburgh folk).
The South Western Scots are Irish who could swim.
The Scousers are Vikings who could swim from Ireland.
The Western Isles/Shetland/Orkney are Norwegians.
Quite a few of the southern Welsh are Flandrians (may explain G’s success) whilst some of the Northern Welsh are Spanish.
All you Northerners are Vikings too…
Which leaves Cornwall and Wessex (look at the history of Wessex king’s names which suggest Anglo-Saxonised British names) as the true British.

I take that as not from Middle east or north Africa or Asia then? 😆

Didn’t the British also bring torture, genocide, concentration camps, legalised rapes, murder, starvation and a whole other host of down right naughty things under the flag of ‘We are superior’

Or the good old days as it’s known 😉