somafunk – Member

i met nothing but admiration for the scots people but when the subject of england came up there was much angst and outpouring of grievances, similar when i went to stay with relatives in Zimbabwe in 1994 for almost a year

A friend of mine got mugged at gunpoint in Jamaica. They took his wallet, looked inside, decided he was english, suddenly things escalate, tirades of abuse and punches and kicks, he’s reasonably sure he’s getting shot. Naw, naw mate, am no ****in english, am scottish. Scottish, ken? No wan o thae english ****s, we hate them too. Every **** does! And suddenly, they’re all bezzie mates, and he gets an armed escort back to touristland to make sure he doesn’t get shot by some other gang.

They still robbed him mind.

Plus a long, long history of imagined bitter oppression might have something to do with it…

To be clear I don’t think the Celtic nations have suffered oppression in living memory. But go back 100 years, 200 years, 500 years…

I think some people need to brush up on their history. Depending on who you listen to, in some parts of Wales kids were being caned for speaking their own language in their own country in the 1930s and 1940s.

If that’s not oppression, I don’t know what is. Remember Wales was conquered militarily and occupied, and the Welsh deliberately repressed, for a very long time (albeit a long time ago). Imagine if the UK had lost the war, and your kids were being forced to speak German in school. You’d consider yourself oppressed I’m sure.

The situation in Wales is different to that in Scotland, because the history is different.

Anyway – re the OP – Welsh nationalism is a funny thing. I think the Welsh as a nation lack confidence, although not as individuals. I think some people don’t like to talk it up much outside of Wales, because of the constant and somewhat unpleasant piss-taking.

😀 sounds about right Northwind.

I’ve only had one bad encounter when holidaying and that was attempting to travel between Kupwara in northern kashmir across the line of control into Keran which is claimed by Pakistan – we had a letter of safe passage by our previous hosts who were basically tribal warlords in Kashmir (a friend who runs a succesful fish farm charity in the area introduced us) offering safe passage to Keran but we got held up (quite an understatement – one of the scariest moments of my life) by bandits with AK47’s who stripped us of all possesions and motorbike and told to walk back out (or else basically), we managed to hitch a lift back to the aforementioned warlords compound and explained what happened and then it all kicked off in the sort of style you only see in movies – A letter or guarantee of safe passage is a genuine bond between warring factions in the area so the normally two opposing factions co-operated to get all our gear back from the bandits and we eventually received an armed escort all the way to Keran. They asked us what we wanted done to the bandits but i’m not ashamed to say i did not have the stomach to pass judgement, it transpired they were ex pakastani troops who had split from the army and i imagine they got dealt with with pretty severely.

Yeah….I’m perfectly happy to describe myself as scottish

Canny really say I feel patriotic in the slightest. It’s just not important.

Bullshit.. The Welsh dont hate the English, you’ve obviously read too many ‘news papers’ and watched too much of that there telly box.

I’m very proud of my Welsh history and I’m proud to be a Welsh Yorkshire man. Above all that, I’m happy to be British.

I always thought that ‘patriotism’ was a fondness for waving flags and stuff ie ‘Yay, us. I am proud’ whilst ‘nationalism’ is more ‘Boo, they are rubbish, keep out’.

In short, patrotism focuses on an ‘us’ whilst the focus of nationalism is denigration of ‘them’ .

My perception could be skewed as first encountered the word nationalism when a child visiting Dolgellau area in the late 1970s, Asking my parents what the graffiti meant (on the rocks above Tal-y-Lyn) I learned that day that being English (albeit with Welsh ancestry) wasn’t universally appreciated.

We invented the bike!

‘We’? I thought some bloke invented it? 😉

*Edit: ‘Tal-y-lyn’ 😳

The BNP types I encountered in latter years only strengthened this negative definition for me, ie Nationalism = puffing oneself up via dehumanising the ‘other’. A self-aggrandising game of stereotypes, scapegoats and hateful prejudices where the player denies and destroys commonality to rebuild differences.

So to anyone who thinks that a negative view of Nationalism is caused by a ‘chip on the shoulder’ – maybe go and read some Nationalist forums then get back to me – then we’ll discuss the meaning of irony.

This is all very quaint. Blinkers at the ready I see 😉

Until we all start thinking as one global family…

It was Neil Armstrong who once likened the Appollo spacecraft whilst returning from his historic moon landing. That he and his two fellow astronauts had to know what every button and switch did on that in order for them to stay alive and as they were orbiting Earth on their return, he realised that our planet was no different to that capsule, a finite resource, hurtling through space, orbiting the Sun….

Hopefully, that makes you think. 🙄

i can’t speak for the whole of the country, but everyone i know from wales (myself, family, friends etc) supposed hatred of the English goes as far enjoying regularly beating you at rugby in an age old sporting rivalry and some friendly banter mocking / playing up to each others national stereo types on a night down the pub

And the burning down the houses thing.

I did not have an appreciation for my scottish birthright before i started travelling (holidaying if i’m being entirely honest) but due to what i have experienced i have come to realise that i should be appreciative of what i am – make of that what you will

What an utter pile of w@nk. You are what you are, what you made yourself, not the inheritor of some family jewels, born to be superior.

As Frankie Boyle said – “What can Al Qaeda teach us about religious intolerance? They don’t even have a football team.”

A friend of mine got mugged at gunpoint in Jamaica. They took his wallet, looked inside, decided he was english, suddenly things escalate, tirades of abuse and punches and kicks, he’s reasonably sure he’s getting shot. Naw, naw mate, am no ****in english, am scottish. Scottish, ken? No wan o thae english ****s, we hate them too. Every **** does! And suddenly, they’re all bezzie mates, and he gets an armed escort back to touristland to make sure he doesn’t get shot by some other gang.

So his assailants, as well as being violent criminals, were also bigots ignorant of history. I’m struggling to see where the “pride” comes in?

a long, long history of imagined bitter oppression might have something to do with it…
There you go, fixed that for you. And yes, I’m Scottish too.

Hear, hear.

If you want to find bitter oppression, look at Ireland, the Caribbbean, australiasia, the Indian subcontinent or anywhere else the British (including the disproportionate and enthusiastic support of Scots) occupied!

I’ve only had one bad encounter when holidaying

I have had 2.
One in Scotland, one in Wales. Both for just speaking with an English accent (and not lording it up or drawing attention to oneself but purely ordering some food or just ‘being there’)

I still have my question for the OP, who typically is conspicuous by his absence, of what’s wrong with being patriotic.
A second question is related to why people confuse patriotism with nationalism.
Thirdly and finally, why it is that people can only see nationalism in others.

I think nationalism and patriotism are different in my mind, but possibly not everyone’s.

Patriotism celebrates what’s good about your country, nationalism celebrates what you see as bad in other countries.

I’m Scots – previous postings will confirm this – and very happy to be so.

Scotland – a country about which a well know Englishman , Winston Churchill, said “Of all the small nations of this earth, perhaps only the ancient Greeks surpass the Scots in their contribution to mankind.”

And that maybe sums it up for me. We are an incredible people; we have done amazing things.

But also we are a defined people even when we leave.

England by contrast lacks identity. The English have also done amazing things, but normally (and partly I think because many English struggle to understand the dual identity of English and British – perhaps natural when 80-90% of British are English) as part of Britain.

Should the English celebrate being English? Yes, but you don’t start with St. George’s day. Start with beer that is as good as and as varied as whisky is in Scotland. Start with Sheffield steel, or railways, or Brunel, or F1 engineering.

Too often, as someone else said, celebrations of Englishness look like the EDL or BNP or UKIP – more a celebration of who they hate.

I live in England (York) and I’m married to an Englishwoman – do I hate England or the English? Not at all, I love you guys with all your faults. Not going to stop me taking the mickey though.

And I think in general and on balance English beer is better than Scots – with the odd exception.

It’s interesting – I’ve become more Scottish and less British as I’ve aged. Partly, we’e defined by how others see us, and although Scots have always been portrayed as “other” in the mainstream media, it’s become more noticeable over the past few years.

I remember the first example I really began to notice was Casualty, the TV show. Any drunk, violent or abusive character was bound to be Scottish – certainly way more than statistically probable in Bristol or wherever that was meant to be filmed.

People keep subtly telling you you’re different, you begin to feel different. I think that’s what happened with me.

I still have my question for the OP, who typically is conspicuous by his absence, of what’s wrong with being patriotic.
A second question is related to why people confuse patriotism with nationalism.
Thirdly and finally, why it is that people can only see nationalism in others.

Interesting questions:
1. Nothing really
2. Because they’re similar? I like Benedict Anderson’s approach to nationalism that speaks of “imagined communities” whereby people who have never met are bonded by values and images that transcend geography. One can be Welsh for example and live in Oz.
3. That’s the way cultural difference works!

I’m surprised language hasn’t come up yet. In N.Wales this is a huge deal with language and culture being indivisible. Expensive to maintain though. I’m sympathetic to its preservation (although I haven’t learnt), but it is interesting when you meet Welsh born folk who don’t speak it. Deffo made to feel less Welsh.

If you want to find bitter oppression, look at Ireland, the Caribbbean, australiasia, the Indian subcontinent or anywhere else the British (including the disproportionate and enthusiastic support of Scots) occupied!

There’s no real need to isolate these instances to “British” is there. There are so many, many examples of one group of people turning up armed somewhere other people live and behaving like utter ****. Belgium’s foreign adventures in Africa!

I’m with Athgray on this one tbh. The perceived differences between “us and them” pale into irrelavence compared to the similarities. It’s only when those differences are elevated to drive extreme measures that they become irreconcilable, which is not something I see in the Scots or Welsh.

Can’t speak for Wales, not spent much time there, but I don’t think scots are as patriotic as we are made out to be. Possibly Anglos really don’t do the patriotism thing, it magnifies our efforts?.

For every patriotic Scot up here, there’s a Celtic fan that for some reason thinks they’re Irish, or a Rangers fan who identifies far more with the English. It’s quite bizarre.

I like Benedict Anderson’s approach to nationalism that speaks of “imagined communities” whereby people who have never met are bonded by values and images that transcend geography. One can be Welsh for example and live in Oz.

Although distinctly Welsh values (another discussion?) escape me for the moment, this ^ nonetheless put me in mind of this:

One can be Welsh for example and live in Oz.

Argentina even!

Eh, and lets just get it said, the english are well known for misappropriating britishness. That’s why none of them think it’s weird that english-only matters are debated in the british parliament, but do think it’s weird for scots to vote in it, for example.

Most English people would be happy to have a parliament where only English matters were discussed and only English MPs were able to vote/discuss. Part of the issue is cost; why have a second parliament in London or elsewhere when there’s one that is perfectly serviceable. Perhaps they need to have separate sessions but spanking out 400M quid (as in Scotland) on a building and a further 70-100M (depending whose stats you read) annually on servicing it and the structures/people it maintains might be over the top.

As far as misappropriating Britishness I call bullshit. I grew up British (well, I’ve got a second passport so not purely) but living in England. In Humberside. With my British family all from Yorkshire. None of those defines me more than the other whereas a lot of Scottish/Welsh people (not all, I haven’t met them all) are very keen to point out their Scottishness/Welshness ahead of their Britishness. On balance, I’d say English people tend to be mostly defined by their city/county and Britishness rather than “being English”.

I don’t see that as misappropriating.

It’s like the French. The original concept was that citizens are French first and anything else comes after. No matter where your parents were from or what region or city you claim to be yours, you should be French above all else. In practical terms it’s hard to do but certainly when I grew up, that was the emphasis at school; British before other things.

I’m surprised language hasn’t come up yet. In N.Wales this is a huge deal with language and culture being indivisible. Expensive to maintain though. I’m sympathetic to its preservation (although I haven’t learnt), but it is interesting when you meet Welsh born folk who don’t speak it. Deffo made to feel less Welsh.

I think you’re right. The languages you speak have a big impact on the way you perceive the world. I was brought up in Wales but, like most people, was taught Welsh only as if it were a foreign language.

It provides you with such a basic level of Welsh that’s practially useless. It means you’re unable to access a big chunk of Welsh history and culture.

I think every child in Wales should be taught at an early age to be able to communicate in Welsh. Then they have a choice in life whether to use it or not.

As far as misappropriating Britishness I call bullshit.

I recall many years ago that David Coulthard would be either British or Scottish in the press depending on his success or failure level, I’ll let you decide which way it went. This can be seen in many other examples and is somewhat tiresome.
Language is an interesting point too as was highlighted in the last week #despitebeingtaughtinWelsh

I think that the Welsh or Scottish are no less patriotic than most other nations. I’ve travelled all over the world and seen this. The question is maybe more why the English are so lacking in patriotism? Anyone here own a flag of St George? MrsG is Welsh and we have all sorts of Welsh based stuff in the house.

It’s hard to explain but it has to be a sort of cultural politeness thing “it vulgar to be seen to be a English patriot” maybe?

I think you’ll generally find any nation that has bigger neighbours tends to be patriotic, especially if at times they are dominated by the neighbour.

This. It’s a variation on the theme of plucky underdogs. See Canada, NZ, Wales, Scotland, no doubt loads more.

The thing that stands out for me being a valley boy and now living in Dorset is the lack of humour here in day to day life.

Am I patriotic? I am proud of being Welsh, I like being Welsh but I am only visibly patriotic when it comes to rugby but as I have pointed out on the rugby thread it is only against the english 😆 but then everyone wants to beat the english 😆 you have to ask yourselves why.

In my lifetime I have seen Wales lose all its heavy industry and been in the slough of despair, now Wales is confident and that has been led IMO by music, bands like the Manics, Stereophonics, Super Furry Animals they all are very Welsh and popular. The resurgence of Cardiff as somewhere splendigedig.

Then you have a series like Gavin and Stacy which was fun, comedians like Rob Brydon, a funny man that can laugh at himself. It all shows us Welshies that we are unique, we have value and we are special 😆

To be honest it’s bloody great being Welsh 😆

Funny isn’t it that as the SNP support has risen, Scottish sport has fallen to the point where it is way behind Wales. I still can’t believe the poor quality of footballers now produced in Scotland considering their history.

Eh?! I have no idea how you equate the rise of a political party to a fall in sporting prowess, but I can assure you that us Scots have been rubbish at football for quite some time. Even before the ‘rise’ of the SNP!

I still don’t know where I should be patriotic for…
Born in India, to scouse mother of Welsh descent.
Lived in England, with Yorkshire wife and kids.
I now live in Scotland (second stretch) and have kids that sound increasingly Scottish…..

(And to paraphrase an earlier post, Scotland is totes amaze, even in its failings)

The question is maybe more why the English are so lacking in patriotism? Anyone here own a flag of St George?

I think it has been packaged and rebranded into a particular form of Britishness which is peddled by the media – a love for monarchy, support for the military and geneal respect for elitist establishments.

To be honest it’s bloody great being Welsh

Is there no irony there? A genuine sentiment?
I’m quite happy being English and am proud of certain things this country has created/made/developed but wouldn’t think of proclaiming them in a discussion like this, there seems to be a lot of chest beating from some denominations in this thread. 🙄
To maybe help answer the OP why do you feel the need to list all the great achievements of your nation such as a comedy drama called ‘Gavin & Stacey’

English people don’t understand because they’re all too busy looking down on their regional English neighbours. Scousers hate the Mancs. Geordies hate Mackems. Yorkshiremen hate everyone. Everyone hates Londoners.

You have to remember though that Scotland is:

The same population as Yorkshire,
Half the population of London,
The same population as the West Midlands.

That I’m proud to be from the North of England isn’t any less valid than you being proud of being able to wear a colorful skirt to your wedding :-p

The question is maybe more why the English are so lacking in patriotism? Anyone here own a flag of St George?

I had a fairly large one stitched to my backpack when I went traveling. TBH no one knew what it was, most people though I was Danish.

I was trying to show that after about 20 years of having nothing Wales via shows like Gavin and Stacey was showing it self to be about more that the miners strike, closing steel plants and the other cliched views of us.

Yes its a genuine sentiment, if you don’t/can’t understand that then I can do nothing to help you.

How is it chest beating, just answering the question.

c when it comes to rugby but as I have pointed out on the rugby thread it is only against the english but then everyone wants to beat the english you have to ask yourselves why.

Maybe you should be the one asking yourself why?

Half the population of London

I think you better do that calculation again!

Oooh, interesting topic!

First of all, Why is anyone patriotic? It’s a bit of a daft concept, but I think it falls somewhere between tribalism* and love**. Neither is strictly rational so I think trying to explain it by way of listing historical achievements or lack of historical wrongdoing is just pointless.

I consider myself patriotic, and I know it’s patriotism because when I lived in Vancouver I was constantly trying to convince myself why the Scottish hills/weather/beer/people were better despite ample and constant evidence to the contrary. Eventually I moved back and am extremely happy I did so, if only for the fact that I’m in Scotland, even if the hills are smaller, the beer weaker and the weather worse (I’m not commenting on the people! 😀 ).

I don’t really believe the English are less patriotic than anyone else though.

*in the nicest possible sense, i.e. we were all monkeys once, it seems natural to want to belong to some sort of tribe even today, see also football supporters, 29ers vs. 26ers etc etc 8)

** as in, you love your partner and can pick out many wonderful reasons why you do, but then, why them? why not someone else with equally good qualities?

Maybe you should be the one asking yourself why?

I think the Welsh are perfectly clear on why there is such disdain for the English. Does it really need to be spelled out to you?

To maybe help answer the OP why do you feel the need to list all the great achievements of your nation such as a comedy drama called ‘Gavin & Stacey’

Goes back to the point made earlier about imagined communities and the way in which cultural produce embodies national identity. Lots of English examples too. Pigface is right – the bands, TV shows and cultural change in the 90s onwards signified a big cultural change in Wales. England had something similar with Cool Britannia.

think you better do that calculation again!

Depends on your definition doesn’t it? Works for the “larger urban area”!