being patriotic is always about saying ‘we’re better than that other lot over there’ in some way

No, that’s nationalism.

1745 and the death of Highland cultue? Blame a Scottish dynasty and their repeated attempt to seize the crown of a country that no longer wanted them. If it hadn’t been for Bonny Prince ****ing Charlie the Highland Scots would have been fine

True. The thing we tend to forget in Scotland is that this period of history wasn’t about Scotland vs England. It was more about Protestant vs Catholic and the various strands of regal family fighting it for power were ultimately all offspring of James VI and I.

The problem with patriotism and sense of identity based on historical headlines is that the full story is rarely so clear cut. Like Rangers fans lauding King Billy’s Irish adventures but launching abuse at the English King behind the events which led to the Glencoe massacre.

Each of the home nations has plenty to be proud about without needing to denigrate its neighbours.

No, that’s nationalism.

Two sides of the same coin.

Two sides of the same coin.

Again, no it’s not.
Nationalism is putting others down to make yourself feel good.
Patriotism is feeling good about yourself and not giving two hoots about anyone else.

I see no problem in being proud of who you are like being patriotic, nationalistic whatever “tic” or “ism” there are.

They want it then come and get it but never let them take it easy.

Fight! Fight! Fight! The winner makes the rules! No two ways about that.

Again, no it’s not.
Nationalism is putting others down to make yourself feel good.
Patriotism is feeling good about yourself and not giving two hoots about anyone else.

Trying to pretend there isn’t a fairly massive crossover between the two is just silly.

Trying to pretend there isn’t a fairly massive crossover between the two is just silly.

Only the uneducated get confused between definitions, definitions are clear. Misusing the language is somewhat more difficult to justify and that half the point of this thread as I don’t think the OP understands the difference. Nothing wrong with being patriotic as many have said, it’s harmless afterall. Insulting or denegrating your neighbours under the banner of nationalism is not acceptable. A huge difference between the two.
EDIT: Isn’t that a UKIP strategy, saying that their own special brand of racism is, in fact, just some good old harmless patriotism?

So we’re all allowed to be patriotic regardless of histories atrocities. It’s all just a bit of friendly banter over an imaginary line and we all love each other really then?

Excellent!! I love being British. 😀

captainsasquatch – Member
Insulting or denegrating your neighbours under the banner of nationalism is not acceptable. A huge difference between the two.

Fight!

The left fight. The right should fight too.

Everyone fights!

Just like our forefathers … 🙄

Winner set the rules. Simple.

Only the uneducated get confused between definitions, definitions are clear.

What’s that if not a cheap dig?

Nothing wrong with being patriotic as many have said, it’s harmless afterall.

I disagree.

Insulting or denegrating your neighbours under the banner of nationalism is not acceptable. A huge difference between the two.

So this harmless patriotism, when people are being proud of where they are from, their traditions, culture etc – what are they comparing against? Nothing?

So we’re all aloud to be patriotic regardless of histories atrocities.

I doubt you’ll find any country which hasn’t got skeletons in their closet….

So this harmless patriotism, when people are being proud of where they are from, their traditions, culture etc – what are they comparing against? Nothing?

Exactly! You’ve got it. You don’t have to copmare to anything.

Except that people obviously do, all the time, as we can see even just from this thread.

I was pretty obviously making the point that it’s impossible for people to do that in isolation. You may disagree, but you could try doing it without being patronising and facetious.

I doubt you’ll find any country which hasn’t got skeletons in their closet….

I’m not looking for them. I think we should stop looking for them and just get on with it. Pointless living in the past, we can’t change that.

I’m all for patriotism, but the bitching is really boring.

OK, so fifth post in, is this patriotism, nationalism, or a bit of both?

Scotland is awesome. Being Scottish is totes amazeballs. Despite our lighthearted internal squabbles and differences we’re all Scottish together. All the time, not just when the football is on.

English people don’t understand because they’re all too busy looking down on their regional English neighbours. Scousers hate the Mancs. Geordies hate Mackems. Yorkshiremen hate everyone. Everyone hates Londoners.

And that’s the difference between nationalism and patriotism. I’m proud and patriotic about being Welsh, it doesn’t make the Dutch, Germans, Australians, Indians, Americans, Brasilians, etc crap. Those that do compare are being nationalistic and i can’t make the term patriotic fit that definition, no matter hard I try. It’s simply semantics.

Again, no it’s not.
Nationalism is putting others down to make yourself feel good.
Patriotism is feeling good about yourself and not giving two hoots about anyone else.

As grum is hinting at, this suggest that the thread title may need editing perhaps?

I’m proud and patriotic about being Welsh, it doesn’t make the Dutch, Germans, Australians, Indians, Americans, Brasilians, etc crap

What about the English? Go on, say you like the English as well…. 😉

OK, so fifth post in, is this patriotism, nationalism, or a bit of both?

Scotland is awesome. Being Scottish is totes amazeballs. Despite our lighthearted internal squabbles and differences we’re all Scottish together. All the time, not just when the football is on.

English people don’t understand because they’re all too busy looking down on their regional English neighbours. Scousers hate the Mancs. Geordies hate Mackems. Yorkshiremen hate everyone. Everyone hates Londoners.

I feel reasonably qualified to identify what this is.

It’s slightly exaggerated sterotyping for comic effect basically trying to poke fun at our English neighbours who let an overabundance of self loathing get in the way of a bit of entirely justifiable national pride.
Lighten up England. Stop Hating yourself quite so much and be proud of the good stuff.
For the record, I think most of England is pretty awesome too and choose it as my holiday destination every year.

Just not Slough…. it’s a shitehole.

TBH I bailed out of this thread when we started accusing each other of centuries old atrocities. Not Cool.

I like the English as much as I like the Dutch, Germans, Australians, etc. Again like is not an antonym for crap.

It’s slightly exaggerated sterotyping for comic effect basically trying to poke fun at our English neighbours who let an overabundence of self loathing get in the way of a bit of entirely justifiable national pride.

OK cool. Do you think there might be a sweet spot in between ‘overabundence of self-loathing’ and excessive patriotism? 🙂

Maybe we could just, you know, be people and not let where we happen to have been born be a defining factor of our personalities? Crazy I know.

captainsasquatch – Member
I like the English

Right, we’re onto something here.

Everyone knows the English don’t really hate anyone, we’re just too reserved/scared to show any real love.

If we can get a Scot to say they like the English we can save the union!!

perchypanther nearly said it…. ^^^^^

OK cool. Do you think there might be a sweet spot in between ‘overabundence of self-loathing’ and excessive patriotism?

There is undoubdedly a massive sweet spot where this is entirely possible. Just get on the M6 and drive north. You’ll find it eventually.

Edit: I like the English. I love the English…. they just can’t find it in themselves to like or love themselves. If you want to see what English patriotism should look like …go to Cornwall. They are as proud and patriotic about their part of the world as any Scotsman or Welshman without coming across as dicks about it.

ads678 – Member

captainsasquatch – Member
I like the English

Right, we’re onto something here.

Everyone knows the English don’t really hate anyone, we’re just too reserved/scared to show any real love.

If we can get a Scot to say they like the English we can save the union!!
😆 😆 😆 🙄 😆

I don’t agree with a lot of this- Orwell was a fud- but this is interesting reading considering where the thread’s gone now, I kind of alluded to it earlier but should have linked

http://orwell.ru/library/essays/nationalism/english/e_nat

There is undoubdedly a massive sweet spot where this is entirely possible.

You’re certainly a lot closer to the sweet spot than Wales. In fact Wales is sort of at the extreme end of both at the same time somehow. 🙂

BTW we have a separatist/nationalist movement here in Yorkshire!

A Conversation For Yorkshire

(not to be confused with Britain First)

BTW we have a separatist/nationalist movement here in Yorkshire!

I visit York every October for a weekend for no other reason than I really like it. It’s a fabulous city…but every single time I visit i’m informed that as a Scotsman, it’s still legal to shoot arrows at me. 😯

They are as proud and patriotic about their part of the world as any Scotsman or Welshman without coming across as dicks about it.

Eh?
They’re just parochial.

Eh? They’re just parochial.

…..which kinda demonstrates my original point.

English people don’t understand because they’re all too busy looking down on their regional English neighbours

QED

The most hilariously parochial example I’ve ever seen of looking down on your regional neighbours was on Islay in Scotland. In one of the pubs in Port Ellen the local football team gave a rousing seemingly heartfelt rendition of:

Oh they’re all a bunch of bastards in Bowmore
Oh they’re all a bunch of bastards in Bowmore
They’re all a bunch of bastards
All a bunch of bastards
Oh they’re all a bunch of bastards in Bowmore

😀

@epicyclo Yes principally the tobacco Lords few in number maybe but I suggest not something a modern Scot should be proud of
Glasgow and the West Indies

…and Peter Reid apparently has a monkeys heed. 🙂

What’s yer point caller? That people who support one football team sometimes say unpleasant things about supporters of an opposing team? How very parochial of them.:-)

thanks for the answers…I’m still confused !

They’re just parochial.

Parochial wasn’t he the wooden boy with the extending nose

The difference between patriotism and nationalism is that the patriot is proud of his country for what it does, and the nationalist is proud of his country no matter what it does; the first attitude creates a feeling of responsibility, but the second a feeling of blind arrogance that leads to war.
Sydney J. Harris, Strictly Personal (1953), “Purely Personal Prejudices”

Of course – there are many ardent Nationalists that will swear they are ‘merely’ patriots as if patriotism is somehow watered-down Nationalism. I agree with grum that they are connected, and often ‘two sides of a coin’ even if only as a ‘polite’ cover for Nationalism. Those who for whatever reason make no distinction in usage view both words as interchangeable. More confusing still – one can be both and the other. ie the US patriot who says ‘my Country right or wrong’. He might not even know he’s a Nationalist as Nationalism is normalised in his experience of being a ‘patriot’.

All very confusing. I’m sticking to humanism, and I don’t care what your grandad did wrong

Do you think the Norman’s really wanted to conquer Wales? It was difficult and expensive and didn’t generate any income.

I hope you’re not studying history. Or maybe you are and just haven’t got to the Normans yet. They were great, the Normans but one thing to know about them – they weren’t peaceful pastoralists who took ages to wind up. They didn’t invade Wales because we annoyed them. 😉

It’s slightly exaggerated sterotyping for comic effect basically trying to poke fun at our English neighbours who let an overabundence of self loathing get in the way of a bit of entirely justifiable national pride

What’s self loathing got to do with it? What’s wrong with just going about your business and not worrying about how your birth nation defines you and wanting affirmation and recognition for that?

Think I’ll stick with indifference or “self loathing” as you call it rather than overblown self aggrandisment based on nationality.

What’s wrong with just going about your business and not worrying about how your birth nation defines you and wanting affirmation and recognition for that?

Wont happen. The ego craves identity, purpose, and belonging too much.

Wont happen. The ego craves identity, purpose, and belonging too much.

I don’t worry about how my birth nation defines me (except for govt or group behaviour making me and my family a target for those wronged by my birth Nation), neither do I want affirmation or recognition for it. Does this mean my ego is either broken, or is it not fragile enough? Serious question…the whole thing is lile racial politics and gender identity politics. I just wish people would back off, that it would all just f-off so we can find out what humans can REALLY do when we get tired of going around in predictable, insecure, childish circles Harumph.