[Closed] Which Ti frame (recommend one)

Whyte 19

merlin works.
not yet built, so it looks nice in my lounge so far...

Genesis Altitude Ti (£978.71srp)

[url= http://http://www.genesisbikes.co.uk/frame/altitude_ti ]link[/url]

Is it just me that thinks it's slightly odd that you know you want a Ti bike but don't know if you want a hardail or full sus?

Genesis ti is 3.08lb for a 17.5", light and not expensive as we bought a batch before ex rates went down the loo.

so you want a very 'lite' (?) bike for leisure rides only??

why not spend a bit less, get a bike that's 2lbs heavier and will last twice as long? No idea re. the frame, don't buy a Merlin though unless your overweight/a London commuter.

i'm not overweight, though i am a london commuter. obviously not on the as-yet-unfinished merlin, though!

Soda!!

I'm not overweight, though i am a London commuter.

😀

james-o - Member

Genesis ti is 3.08lb for a 17.5", light and not expensive as we bought a batch before ex rates went down the loo.

Is the ti version really THAT light? I'm amazed!

If it's that light though, surely it's a bit of a flexy mess when ridden? I'm sure it's strong enough, but ti frames that light tend to be very flexy. I had an Airborne Lancaster a few years ago that weighed 3.4lb for the frame, and I still found it too flexy.

(Genesis Altitude 853 steel owner here, interested to hear how the ti version comares)

Seven (if they still do custom geometry).

Have you taken a look at Enigma and their Ego MTB frame.

I haven't yet seem any reviews but it looks good in the flesh and is sensibly priced - although not as attractive price wise as a couple of months ago.

I considered it but then had a change of heart and opted for a Whyte 19 carbon jobbie.

Oh dear! I use my Ti for picnic rides - hopefully some of you may find that amusing 😀

I love my Litespeed and freely admit that I can't ride for toffees but riding a Ti is a totally different experience.

Re mboy:

Guy Kesteven's playing with one at the moment so expect review in WMB over the coming months.

Cheers

It's all in your mind. Riding a ti bike is hardly a 'different' experience.

People are only going to reccomend whatever frame they own.So I'll do the same.Its got to be A ti456.

Joe - sorry but I beg to differ!

What's the point of make a f/s out of ti?

I am with Joe, Its 98.32% in your mind, if you let 2psi out of your tires you'd see a larger difference in performance. Ti bikes, as lovely as they are, are no better/diffent to a well set up Alu bike (say Spesh s-works hardtail), the only difference being bragging rights. Road bikes are a different story.

So what your saying is buy a decent aly frame and kit it out with super lightweight kit.
BUT ,does ti not ride like carbon. Absorbing the terain. Thats what im after something thats not so sore on your ass. Then again i can go f/s.
Do they make f/s ti bikes ?

I agree with cinnamon girl, I'd beg to differ about the feel of Ti. Having had a Hummer, and having to stop a couple of times on the first ride to check my rear tyre pressure, I can confirm there is a "feel". Now, I'm certain that one can achieve something approaching that with carefully butted tubes on bikes made of other materials, but it certainly does exist.

Like SSS, I find it curious that you know you "want" Ti, but you don't have a clue about what type of frame. That's arse about face

http://www.litespeed.com/bikes/new/sewanee.aspx

Not sure if Ti f/s are commonly made - there must be some but it doesn't sound like a great idea. A high performance f/s wants a very rigid (aluminium) frame such that the shock and linkage provides suspension in a predictable and tunable manner. Throwing in some Ti frame wibble seems to contrary to this idea, the bike wouldn't work as good. Maybe 🙂

I am with Joe, Its 98.32% in your mind,

It may be in your mind but I can feel the difference between each of my 4 ti bikes and between them and my steel bike and my alu bikes. Which leads nicely to the point that it's not just the material the frame is made of but the way that material is worked and put together.

IME steel is probably the most 'comfortable' material for a ht xc frame for 'leisure rides'.

i'm a Ti freak (got a Hummer and a 456 Ti) and would suggest you re-think your option on the on-one as it begs to be built up tough.
it could be built light, but, imo , you'd miss the point.

The OP might also check out Moots. Their YBB frame is a legendary softail - quite pricey. No idea how it rides, but for a piece of titanium bicycle scuplture to ponce around on you won't find better.

I've a Global TH 1.5.

Very nicely made, rides light and whippy yet still direct and strong.

I've ridden racey high end steel and alu hardtails and IMO Ti for me is the best of all worlds.

fat chance or moots

Moots Rigormootis.

Interesting responses to my post:

Just to qualify i have had and still have ti bikes, both road and MTB. I obviously agree with the point that construction is 9/10ths the resulting ride characteristics. But, in reality we are talking about microscopic amounts of difference in deflection and absorption between steel, ti, carbon and aluminum in what is essentially a rigid object. When you but Ti you should buy it for 'prestige' (for want of a better word), workmanship, operational life (it will last longer) or weight. A frame in each material (car, ti, alu, st), designed specifically for the same purpose - harnessing the particular qualities of each material will perform in almost the same way. The best way to tune a bike to your particular riding requirements is not to throw money at a Ti frame believing it will be a revelation but picking the best setup in terms of tires, stem, bars, forks, matched with a frame that allows for flexibility in you budget to archive the riding characteristics you need.

In short, if you have pots of cash then blow it on a Ti bike with stans wheels and carbon loveliness. If you are working to a budget (albeit a healthy one), you can get the same ride quality for less money spent in the right places.

operational life (it will last longer)

Is this really true? Does it really last so much longer that steel or alu? In an ultimate sense, perhapos, but we'll all be long dead by then.

This is often used as a justification for buyinf Ti. Not a good one, IMO (especially given the frequency with which some change their frames).

Titus FTM (was Motolite) / Racer X are both f/s Ti.

Kent Eriksen makes stunning Ti frames, you'll need deep pockets tho esp with the pound crashing against the dollar. Same for Indy Fab, Black Sheep, moots.

I had a bad experience with an asian made Setavento titanium frame that cracked after 6 months. The build quality compared to my old Rocky Mountain Ti bolt was pretty poor.

If you are going with Ti the old addage "buy cheap, buy twice" is quite relevant.

Seven, custom geometry

My Ti has a totally different feel to my other bikes that are all made from different materials, ie aluminium, 853 steel etc. It's a bike for life, built up reasonably light with good quality kit. I've only had it a few months but am pretty certain I will be doing all-day XC rides on it and will not feel beaten up afterwards.

There is a Litespeed Obed for sale in the Classifieds at the moment. I demo'd one that was a size too big, with a 140mm fork, but I could ride it and it was actually lighter than my Ocoee. I was then sold on the Ti idea! I would say it's a real opportunity cos I hate to imagine how much the Litespeed frames are selling for now following the price increase.

Go seek out some demo bikes and have fun!

If you are going with Ti the old addage "buy cheap, buy twice" is quite relevant.

But Ti frames come with a lifetime guarantee, so who cares.

I bought an Airborne off ebay, it cracked as the previous owner rode it with an inch of post in the frame (no really!), Van Nicholas gave me a brand new Zion no questions asked, there is now a lifetime guarantee on that too...

litespeed..........I have a kitsuma not the one in classifieds and it is excellent.....but the on one looks great value.

There is a difference between the Ti and steel, ti is just better but cost wise cannot beat soem of the steel frames

I have had 3 alu hardtail frames in quick succession (2 years) Orange Gringo, Focus Raven, S Works M5. They all ride very differently on almost identical kit. The gringo was very stiff, focus too, s works is very comfy. As someone mentioned above if you buy a top end frame it will ride better than a bottom end one, regardless of material. S works were £1000 when they came out, (maybe overpriced) now available for £700ish. However, you do get what you pay for.

Ridden Ti and carbon hardtails too and both are nice but not mega different to the s-works.

Seen and heard of lots of snapped Ti frames, so to me the longevity thing doesn't add up either. I guess as someone said above, buy a good one or buy with a lifetime guarantee....cotic only guarantee the soda for a few years!

I have a Litespeed Obed & like it very much. Best makes are Lynskey, Moots, Merlin & Litespeed. The other makers just havent been building Ti as long & dont have the experience or the heritage. Experience is necessary as Ti is VERY difficult to weld. The reason more makers are buidling Ti is that the material has come down in price. Personally I would never buy a bike cos its cheap - work out what is the most you can afford then go buy, not the other way round. i.e. whats the cheapest Ti bike on the market..

Don't buy that at all I am afraid, that's like saying that, say, Raleigh make better bikes than Specialized or Yeti because they have been doing it longer, nonsense..

I have a Litespeed Obed & like it very much. Best makes are Lynskey, Moots, Merlin & Litespeed. The other makers just havent been building Ti as long & dont have the experience or the heritage.

There's a few more quality Ti builders out there than that. Maybe you should look into things a bit longer. 😉

i disagree with mtt,
different materials give different rides ime.
i've changed the exact same kit between a carbon ht, and an alu one. and 2 friend runs damn near the same thing (i don't think different hubs on the same rims/tires is much difference) on a steel and a scandium frame. they all ride different.

Trust me dude these guys have been in the business longer than anyone else. Im not saying there arent other builders, I am saying that these guys have been doing it the longest & probably have the most experience - Ti is VERY hard to work with, go ask a welder if your not sure. Oh & ps comparing Raleigh (steel/alloy - low ish end bikes) to say Litespeed (Ti - high end hand made bikes) doesnt really work does it? Its hardly like for like..

I've recently bought a Litespeed Ocoee 2009 frame and built it up it with the kit from my Scale. Is it better.....its different, very compliant when hammered over rough ground and up short steep climbs. It has a very taught rear end not too flexy....dare I say it a bit like aluminium!! Sizing is good but headset tube is long for a race bike. I love it though!!

I'm quite aware of how hard Ti is to work with.

Just that there's quite a few builders out there that are also [b]very[/b] experienced in what they do.

BTW I also own/have owned a few Ti frames from some of the bigger players. 😉

Oh & ps comparing Raleigh (steel/alloy - low ish end bikes) to say Litespeed (Ti - high end hand made bikes) doesnt really work does it? Its hardly like for like..

Raleigh made some VERY nice ti Hardtails back in the mid 90's, so you can't really say that necessarily!

(though in fairness, they might have been made by Litespeed, or someone else, and stickered up as Raleigh)

simply_oli_y - Member

i disagree with mtt,
different materials give different rides ime.

Different materials DEFINITELY make a significant difference. I've owned a few ally hardtails and hated them all except for a 97 S Works M2 that I had. Have had a couple of steel hardtails which ride MUCH nicer, definitely more lively, more forgiving, just generally nicer to ride. And had a ti bike, but found it too flexy, so sold it shortly after buying it.

Of course, you can make a flexy ally bike, or a silly rigid steel or ti one, if you want. But GENERALLY, ally frames are stiffer, steel a bit more forgiving/flexy, and titanium more forgiving/flexy again.

And also, steel frames are generally the heaviest, ally frames in the middle, and ti the lightest. Litespeed make a road bike frame that comes in under 2lb FFS!

So if you're comparing Apples with Apples (ie. similar frame design, different materials) then the material will make a significant difference. It's just how much you notice it, and whether you're prepared to pay the price, that counts!

For me, Steel is the material of choice for an HT. Titanium just doesn't justify itself when I won't notice the extra pound in frame weight as I'm not an XC racer.

Its horses for courses like you say - I wanted a bike that I knew would last so I went for a Ti from a reputable make (I didnt want to pay a lot of money for a Ti frame & then have it break) so I went for Litespeed (with a lifetime warranty) . It was that simple.

My view is this: you get what you pay for. If I have a problem with say the boiler in my place Im not going to get some fresh-faced lad with a fistful of NVQ's in his hand to fix it, no Ill get the plumber with a few more years of experience under his belt.

Titus Eleven frames are worth a look,stopped making them in 2007. Fat tread bikes in Aviemore still have a few left, the have them on sale at £800. I think they also have a 2008 Racer X titanium frame left as well, think it is a small.

Give Martin a call on 01479-812019, he is very helpfull.

No mention of Charge Duster Ti? Recently got 10/10 in WMB. More forgiving and comfortable than my old Zaskar frame, but hav'nt had it that long to get 'feel' for it.

Well ive had four Ti hardtails and for my money my current Soul rides better than any of them

SimonD, do you know what you're talking about?...

What about Seven? Not a good manufacturer? You realise they were 7 of the original Merlin employees?

Titus? If you sent your cracked Litespeed to be repaired, it was done by Titus, Litespeed didn't repair their own frames. Not sure if that's still the case, but it certainly was a couple of years ago.

Your listed brands have the heritage, and are excellent certainly, but that's far from a definitive list.

I rode about 10,000 off-road miles on my (Ti) Airborne Lancaster before this happened:
[img] [/img]

I now ride a steel Deluxe. I'm obviously a heathen but I cannot tell the difference in ride quality. They do both ride differently but that's down geometry/ fit I certainly would not say that there's a mystical property to titanium that makes it have amazing ride properties.

That looks awfully like someones seatpost has been too short

The seatpost was plenty long enough, well below the bottom of the top-tube/ seat-tube intersection. However the seatpost insert (the bit the frame manufacturers install to get added strength around said junction) ended exactly where the crack is.

You can see the other side here:
[img] [/img]

njee - never said it was definitive (just my opinion) & yes thanks I do know what Im talking about, nice of you to ask.

A BIG THANKS to you all for your advice ...

After taking everything into account im gonna go for a nice steel frame..Not a ti, as i really cant agree paying the extra bucks for something that is gonna get smashed up a fair bit.(ie looking at my old chameleon)
So cheers again !

Yes i am a spoon

....so what nice steel frame are you getting?????? ❓

Here's what happened to my Lancaster, though it was most definately down to the previous owner riding with an inch of post in the frame...

[IMG] [/IMG]
[IMG] [/IMG]
[IMG] [/IMG]
[IMG] [/IMG]
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[IMG] [/IMG]

[i]never said it was definitive (just my opinion) [/i]

Not really, your post was rather blunt, still, if you wanted a raise off people who clearly aren't titanium gods like you, mission accomplished.

[i]yes thanks I do know what Im talking about, nice of you to ask[/i]

Worth checking, it didn't really sound like it!

Ti MTBs have had their day, ti road bikes have more of a place for that 'bike for life' crowd, who want their bike to still look perfect in 20 years time. That's bugger all use on an MTB where it'll be totally obsolete in half that, and you'll be left looking for old bits to keep it running.

It's generally heavier than carbon, or light and flexy as ****, and seemingly not as indestructible as 'they' (whoever they are) would have you believe. Also interesting that most of the failures here are pretty major!

The ti Racer-X is heavier than the alu one, as is the Litespeed Niota. So... heavy or flexy, expensive, may have some amazing ride quality, but may not!

Having ridden various ti bikes over the years I'd say they do have a softail-esque feeling, but it's probably mainly psychological, but I personally find it makes the bike feel more vague than anything else, maybe it comes from liking very light carbon race bikes, which are probably a harsher, stiffer, more direct ride.

Aaah well, different strokes and that...

loddrik.

That crack has undoubtably been caused by the extra strain of that ghey gear cable. 😯 😉

Simon your Ti experience seems to be limited to the one frame you've owned.

Try a bit harder at Ti ownership. 😉

the guy i ride with has a titanium frame with exactly the same damage as above two . he had the seatpost too far out .
is there any hope of repair / welding ? anybody tried ?

just wondering wether my new seattube is too short, in my lancaster frame..... bugger

if i have it at the perfect length, it is bang on the minimum insertion point, which is 80mm btw

it sits in the frame with the bottom of the tube about 5 mm below the top tube weld..... ie it clears the whole top tube by about 5mm

your thoughts?

this is what it looks like

[IMG] [/IMG]

i would look for a longer seapost !

I'd want at least an inch bellow the bottom of the toptube to be safe.

I had a Mark 2 steel Inbred and moved over everything onto an original Ti Geared Inbred and there is a world of difference between how the two bikes felt and rode from what are pretty similar frames designs.
The Tinbred is far more comfortable and feels sprightly in comparison and it is certainly not a physchological difference.

Personally I always add contingency in such areas and would have the seatpost sitting an additional 5cm or so lower in the downtube than the minimum limit.

See my reply on your new thread Tim, if there's an internal sleeve, just make sure your seatpost reaches the bottom of that! If not, then just get as long a post as you possibly can! If you want a really nice superlight tarty carbon or alu post, drop me a line 🙂

Did what njee20 suggested
Measure depth of internal sleave on Ti456
[IMG] [/IMG]
convince myself this is well below any tubes.
[IMG] [/IMG]
Then measure this length on seatpost and notice it is well above MIN mark, mark with tipex.
[IMG] [/IMG]
seemed sensible to me.

I now ride a 400mm Thomson post on the Van Nic, as advised by VN, not taking any chances, even if I do have the lifetime warranty to fall back on...

With the 330mm post very little is hanging out the bottom of the sleave. Why would 70mm hanging out the bottom help?

How much does the extra 70mm weigh?, Not much I should imagine so why not 400mm

damn damn damn, i have just fitted the bloody thing, its brand spanking, fitted up to its minimum insertion point it is still 30mm shorter than internal sleeve.

i ordered a 350mm they (fatbirds) sent a 300mm in error without me noticing, whats the likelihood of them swapping it out, considering its now got hefty insertion marks below the minium line?

Where is Brant when you need him?
CRC must have him working hard already.
Must admit an extra 70mm would weigh naff all, but post is 330mm and sits just below the internal sleeve and would rather not ditch a very good post for no real reason.

Tim

I run a pretty high seatpost on an older lancaster see pic below, but having said that its a 400mm carbon seatpost which I believe (probably wrongly knowing me) takes some of the impacts that would damage the frame. i have owned the frame for about 3 years IIRC.

Still I'd go back to fatbirds and suggest they replace the seatpost!

[img] ?v=0[/img]

If it's sleeved internally there's absolutely no advantage to having more seatpost hanging out the bottom- it's just floating around in the tube being all heavy and pointless!

If it's not, then you may as well have as long a seatpost as possible, so the tube's better supported.

The issue, from the feedback I have had from Lynskey, is that due to titaniums flexibility, running more than an inch an a half of extension above the top tube is going to cause problems.

That is actually why we curved the top tube on the 456. To normalise standover height, yet, let us put the top tube to the seat tube a little higher - the curve was needed as otherwise standover would be (a bit) higher.

Also, on the Ti 456 we used a shimmed (internal) 34.9mm post, not a skinny one.

For info; just had a look and I have 160mm of seat post inside the tube, no internal sleeve, 27.2 seatpost. So thats a fair bit even with the long post and 14st giving a fair bit of leverage. Still just as well as I'm not exactly able to do much about it even if it is an accident waiting to happen.

Interestingly on your point Brant my '98 Kona 853 runs a 26.8 seat post (similar amount inside/out) and I swear there is a bit of a bend in the seat tube, But again its been there for 10 years so hey ho!

@singlespeed - Im on my 3rd Ti frame, 1 was nicked the other is a road bike. Again I wanted a bike which was supple enough to ride on the smashed up country roads near me & something which would take said hammering.

@njee Most of the failures on here it seems to me have happened when folk have been doing something outside of the recommended specs. Plus if Ti Mtbs have had their day why are so many people making them?

At the end of the day its whatever makes you happy - Ive just ridden my Ti & love it, climbs like a goat & if I have the balls to let it will fly down the trails as fast as I want to go! Anyway nuff said Im off for a fish dinner with the missus.