Wes Streeting

I am so glad the Scottish NHS is devolved.  ~We may have our own issues but we do not have this man in charge

Not content with taking large sums of money from private health interests he appointed as his advisors two people with large private healthcare interests

Not content with refusing to get rid of the wastage that is the remnants of the fake market he has now called for league tables – taking more money and effort from the NHS for something that will have no benefit and is purely setting up an excuse to privitise

Now he has weighed in on the dignity in dying debate with the usual religious fundamentalists lies and invented a whole new one.  Apparently assisted dying will cost so much it will cripple palliative care.  Such an obvious piece of nonsense.  Others of the antis have called it a cost saving measure.  Palliative care is expensive.  Someone taking assisted dying will save that money that would have been spent in those futile last weeks.  My best guess is there will be no significant financial effect either way and that this could actually improve palliative care as resources go to those who want and need them

Why can he not come out and say his opposition is because of his religion\?  Because of course he knows that will have to traction so he spouts the usual lies from the religious antis

What a odious and dangerous man he is

Opponents of assisted dying are not all “usual religious fundamentalists”.

I didn’t realise Streeting was one of those swivel eyed loony frothing Anglicans?

I did not say they were.  What I said was he was using the lies created by these folk.  the opposition is overwhelmingly from religious fundamentalists and they spread lies about it.  I have seen their briefing papers where they tell folk to do this.  they call it “fibbing for god”

I have no problem with those who say ” Its against my religion”  I have no issue with folk with genuine secular concerns.  What I cannot accept is the deliberate lying from well funded religious fundamentalists.

the point is that its outright lies he is spreading.  Lies created by the religious to impose their world view on the secular

Thanks for the explanation tj.  Are these fundamentalists actively seeking donations by inappropriate (ie through fear or bullying) means?  Who is allowing them to be powerful?

Anyway – this was not to discuss the merits of assisted dying ( there is another thread for that) – but to discuss what a dangerous liar this man is.  Its an example of how he lies as he does over privatisation and other aspects of health care.  Allowing dogma to overpower truth.

I’d rather have Jeremy Hunt in charge!

I fully support assisted dying, and I’ve been impressed by what I’ve seen of the proposed bill and the safeguards within it.

I am a bit concerned that coverage it’s going to attract in the coming months and the “assertions” that will be made are going to be very stressful for you TJ, given your obvious and justified interest in the debate.

If shouting on here makes you feel better, fair enough.  But expect to get a very hard time from those who are still not comfortable with the idea, or who do not take well to your passionate debating style on this important issue.

I don’t want to see yourself getting wound up or winding yourself up over some of the opinions we disagree with on the subject. You need to find the best way to look after yourself in the coming months.

I have no problem with those who say ” Its against my religion”

I keep thinking that when interviewed about it the first question should be ‘do you believe in a god’ and then we can judge their responses based on that framework. Radio 4, this morning, asked Streeting about his faith after allowing him to say he was opposed to the bill because he’s concerned that people may opt for assisted dying so as not to be ‘a burden’. This phrase has been used a couple of times on R4 by Christian MPs opposed to the bill so I’m guessing it’s the party line – whichever party that might be.

No worries CG – they are funded mainly by the american evangelic churches and by Brian Soutar the Stagecoach boss.  The main anti organisation “Care not Killing” has cross membership and leadership from SPUC ( society for protection of the unborn child – the nasty anti abortion organisation)

I have met with these folk and debated with them – a very unpleasant bunch.  Because they are so well funded and organised they have power beyond their membership.  Their lies get spread widely and are picked up by the media unchallenged

Anyway – Streeting?

Ta more cash!

anyway – Streeting?

My concern is that as usual he is targeting the wrong people to punish for poor performance as per the latest league tables.  The people who are actually in control of how quickly patients get seen are the consultants. They manage thier lists via their secretaries and decide who to treat when. When they dig their heals in there is nothing any manager or hospital can do about it.

I completely agree that the production of the league tables will create an industry in itself and because of the way these things are always done much time and effort will be spent on how to best game them to get the best place in the league. The best place in the league being at the bottom of the upper quartile. High enough up to be left alone, not too high that you have to be able to explain how you have done it to those at the bottom.

Yeah, I don’t trust Streeting to do the right thing for the right reasons, and publishing league tables are not the right thing.

The NHS is entering its toughest season, I know a new government cannot magically find thousands of bedsvans qualified staff, but be nice to have plans for some progress not more bloody league tables.

League tables? Please no. Have you a source for this?

As for the assisted dying. With the correct safeguards and legislation in place there really is no secular argument for it other than ‘I don’t believe in it.” If a person genuinely has had enough then what gives another person the right to insist that they carry on in pain with no chance of recovery?

Arguments from a religious stand-point are based on fairy tales. I see that the Anglican church has shed even more moral authority this week.

doing what the scots government did would be a good start.  Remove the remaining bits of nonsense of the fake market, group hospitals and other services into sensible groups and then do not eff about reoganising owt else.  Immediate savings in bureaucracy and increased efficiency at very little cost. That would reap immediate benefits

The league tables are to create “failing” parts of the organisation in preparation for privitising them and to pick a fight with managment and clinicians to appear tough.  |Its not about solving any issues

the other quick  thing is to pump money into community care in all its forms,  Bed blocking is a huge issue and discharge targets make it worse with failed discharges.  We need to be able to get folk out of hospitals when they no longer need that bed.  Failure to do so causes a lot of the ill effects.

League tables? Please no. Have you a source for this?

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/nov/13/wes-streeting-hospital-league-table-plan-nhs-doctors-bosses

He will also set out plans on Wednesday to sack “persistently failing managers” and send “turnaround teams” of improvement experts into poorly performing trusts, including those with big deficits. Trusts with good performance, or which raise themselves up the league table, will be rewarded with extra money to buy equipment and repair or construct facilities.

So if you are a well performing hospital or service – which generally means its in an affluent but not too high cost of living area – you get extra funds.  those in areas with high levels of illness and disability get expensive new managers (presumably from their pet outsourcing firms) put in who will adsorb time and effort in reoganising things.  this will make things worse not better and increase health inequalities

I think the principal reason that Streeting is briefing against the Assisted Dying bill is because it is a controversial subject that he is not really interested in dealing with. The people who have done the heavy lifting on this, like Kim Leadbetter, have got involved as a matter of principal because they believe they are doing something that is going to help people avoid unnecessary suffering. I don’t think Streeting wants to get his hands dirty and take the flak that will be involved in passing the new law.

80% of the population are in favour.  Starmer has asked those in cabinet that support it not to be too involved as its rightly a conscience vote.  I am sorry – I just do not buy that as a reason at all and he has gone against Starmers guidance to cabinet.  He would be better shutting up about it “its going to be a conscience vote and I support that and urge all  all MPs to vote according to the evidence and their conscience”  He could even say that he will be voting against.  Its the repeating of the lies that gets me.  I distrust him and his motives

I have seen valid concerns raised by some doctors representatives, and a friend who is in her final year of medical school, that they are uncomfortable with defining the “6 months to live”, trying to decide if there’s competence and/or coercion. I can understand it puts doctors in a difficult position.

Though doctors have to make other awful choices anyway, and – Shipman aside – I’m sure plenty of doctors in the last few thousand years have made sure people haven’t suffered longer than necessary.

If you want a more light hearted take on the subject,  David Baddiels current tour deals with it very bluntly, based in his experience with his parents.  I’d  recommend seeing it if anyone gets a chance.

League tables FFS!

Why does every idiot who idolises privatisation think public services will be better competing against itself.

The 6 months to live was dropped from the scottish bill for that reason.  I accept there are genuine secular concerns tho looking at best practice worldwide we can see those are misplaced concerns generally

Anyway – perhaps better not to discuss the detail of assisted dying on this thread?

I disagree with his approach on assisted dying (he’s said he agrees with the principle, it’s implementation that’s the stumbling block).

He has secured the biggest increase in the NHS budget since 2010. We shouldn’t be surprised he needs some headlines on reform to support this.

I think he’s okay fwiw. I’ll go further and say I like him, though he’s a politician to the roots of his boots. I detect that the OP has some serious antibodies…

I used to think he was going to be good.

But making up this spurious argument just makes him seem like a weasel who will say anything to get what he believes.

Double speak worthy of a tory

john – we will see it the4 fullness of time for sure but I believe he is setting up to increase priviatisation given his taking of money from private healthcare and his appointment of folk with huge private healthcare interests as advisors.  league tables are just wrong and counterproductive and why does he keep on picking fights with the professionals?

Trusts with good performance, or which raise themselves up the league table, will be rewarded with extra money

How **** stupid do you have to be to think this asinine proposal is in any way helpful?

When we have problem areas in the company I work for they get put into “enhanced measures” and extra funding and resources are deployed to improve them. Pouring more money into areas that are already performing well makes absolutely no sense!

Anyway – perhaps better not to discuss the detail of assisted dying on this thread?

You maybe shouldn’t have made it such a plank of your argument in your original post then. I understand that you’ve a personal interest in this but it’s a poor foundation for what just looks like a grab-bag attack on Streeting.

I support the concept of assisted dying but the case for it is currently undermined by the inadequacy of palliative care in the NHS, thereby making one of the alternative choices less viable. I have no religious objection to it, and even just for personal reasons would like it to be an option in the future.

I’m a big proponent (and massive beneficiary, at least in financial terms) of socialised medicine, but in my unfortunately wide experience of various specialties it’s by and large an absolute shit show, despite the good intentions of most people involved. It is in need of major reform. As far as Streeting’s proposals go I haven’t yet formed an opinion, though I’ve serious misgivings about anything that involves league tables and its inequities and inevitable gaming. You’ve only to look at the handling of waiting lists to see that the current NHS can make black into white.

Fair enough – it was probably a mistake 🙂

I was happy to give Streeting the benefit of the doubt, but league tables is an idea that so dumb, it feels like they’ve a list that they went through and crossed them all off for either political or financial reasons and the only thing left at the very bottom of the barrel was this horsehit.  It’d better be one those ‘ideas that get floated’ to the public to gauge their popularity to be either enacted or quietly dropped accordingly.

I’d point any politician **** about with the NHS to a quote from Bill Gates, “People always overestimate what you can achieve in a year, and underestimate what can be done in ten”

^^^I agree with all the above. Did get a bit of heartsink with this morning’s media round. Just hope it’s meant to be eye-catching and not meant to do a right lot

Aside from anything ,he does look like a person whose demise will involve a satsuma and a wardrobe.

The league tables are a terrible idea. Managers who are in fear for their jobs do not make good decisions nor do they provide good leadership, and the idea that ‘good’ hospitals will be rewarded means that hospitals at geographic or demographic disadvantage are going to be left high and dry. And there’s not enough elective capacity to give people true choice, and in an emergency people will be conveyed to the nearest ED.

I have seen valid concerns raised by some doctors representatives, and a friend who is in her final year of medical school, that they are uncomfortable with defining the “6 months to live”

My issue with this is that the profession is already bad at this (as in overestimation rather than the reverse, in general) and frankly it’s crystal ball gazing a lot of the time.

This guy is on my unwritten list of c’s since he was NUS president, but I can’t remember why.

Could be something he said, did, or just the way he was.

I wonder how long he will last?  there are others in the cabinet I have little time for but they do not look out of their depth like he is.

Streeting….. absolute ****. Probably my least favourite Labour minister….. he’s a large reason why I can’t bring myself to vote Labour. He’s a very slightly less total bastard than your average Tory.

I heard him on Today this morning. He spouted a string of management-speak buzz phrases.

League tables are just an utterly stupid idea. It will divert resources from patient care to managing the process. As for giving more money to the people who manage to game the ranking system best, that is even more stupid.

Apparently assisted dying will cost so much it will cripple palliative care.  Such an obvious piece of nonsense.  Others of the antis have called it a cost saving measure.  Palliative care is expensive.  Someone taking assisted dying will save that money that would have been spent in those futile last weeks.

I had a similar WTF moment, but the safeguards in the process proposed in England mean two doctors sign it, then one of those doctors goes to the High Court to have a high court judge review it.  I imagine the NHS will not send them alone (although they should be perfectly capable of giving evidence alone) and there might be a barrister accompanying them.  Given the chaos of the courts that is probably a whole shift where the doctor can not be allocated to the wards/clinics etc…  So I can see that as drafted the proposal could be expensive.  Perhaps he could have a chat to the Justice secretary to see how they could stream line that or indeed encourage an amendment to the bill that only requires the doctors to go to court where there is some element of concern about the content of what they have written.  No doubt if he does though, the slippery slope people will be saying, “see the bill is not even law and they are changing it” because it seems people only pay attention to how Parliament works when it’s “their” issue before it.

Streeting I find very disturbing as a politician and I think the weakest of the cabinet. I really don’t like his MO either, he is thoroughly unconvincing.

I don’t understand how he is in a top tier job, and to be honest I don’t think he’ll go the distance

I agree with that Poly – the judicial review thing is a sop to the antis but it actually just gives the anti credence that coercion is an issue – which it simply is not.  Any coercion goes the other way trying to get their loved one to continue futile treatment,  Its a completely stupid idea and not needed

Streeting getting a kicking in the Grauniad

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/nov/13/wes-streeting-hospitals-league-tables-nhs-staff