Washing waterproofs

Anyone have any experience of ‘professional’ reproofing, like:

I sent a GTX jacket to LSR for “professional” retaping. Came back looking like a blind 6 year old had done it. It then all fell off the first time I used it. I wish I’d taken some photos, it was quite possibly one of the worst ‘professional’ jobs I’d personally experienced…

Hey BadlyWiredDog

:they wrote: So here’s a question. If I wash at 30c with some sort of specialist re-proofer, that re-proofer is going to go everywhere. By that I mean on the inside of the jacket as well as the outside. Will waterproofing the inside stop any breathable properties from working?

:you replied:
Not in my experience because you’re dealing with vapour transmission not water. The exception is with 2-layer fabrics, which are the ones with a separate drop liner – three layer fabrics, confusingly are a single layer of fabric, but it’s a sandwich of three components – you don’t want DWR on the lining fabric, so use a spray-on reproofer for that sort of jacket and just treat the outside surface.

Just so I have this right, you’re meaning that the 2 layer (with drop lining) should not be treated with a wash – in waterproofer? bit confused by the – 3 layer fabrics bit within the hyphens –
3 layer is ok with the wash in stuff
is that right?

Those membrane fabrics are so bloody expensive they definitely don’t need ruining.

thanks
neil

I wonder if Dr Bronners liquid Castile soap is as good (and safe) as Nikwax Techwash? Bronners has to be as good as “soapflakes”or liquid soap I imagine?

Those membrane fabrics are so bloody expensive they definitely don’t need ruining.

I was once misled by Nikwax instructions into washing a Buffalo Tech top (basically Pertex, which has a thin fleece lining) with the TX Direct wash in proofer.
It simply stopped breathing –
Only one way to get rid, Nikwax advised dry clean –
According to Buffalo TX-Direct is a definite no go – and you definitely can’t dry-clean a Buffalo. I am still trying to wash it out a few years later. Expensive top ruined basically as its only usable le for low sweat activity now.

So, IMO Nikwax make great stuff for treatment of waterproofs – but their instructions (and customer support staff) leave a fair bit to be desired.

Witness their “soft shell proof wash in – The easy to use, safe, high performance wash in waterproofing for softshell clothing.” “specifically designed and optimised for softshell garments” [ https://www.nikwax.com/en-gb/products/productdetail.php?productid=56&activity= ], Having been stung with the Buffalo, I contacted Nikwax about this, “oh no it’s not for any soft-shell with wicking lining”!
I know that plain, unlined soft-shell exists – but what I think of as proper soft shell is actually the comfortable to wear soft fabric stuff with fuzzy lining. The Nikwax website misses out that warning completely AFAICS – so instructions are still misleading, despite my mentioning this years ago.

Nikwax definitely need better communication. skills. sadly.
It seems like really good stuff

Anyone hear the Blistegear ‘fabrics’ podcasts (from their “Gear:30” subdivision)
compare these interviews with spokespeople, these:

Gore’s 3 New Gore-Tex Pro Fabrics (Ep.71)

What is The North Face Futurelight? (Ep.74)

with this:

Nikwax & the Future of DWRs (Ep.76)

theres a great podcast about Icebreaker Merino too. very informative

sorry about the massive gaps in this when online, they are not in my original!

oh well
N

Just so~I have this right, you’re meaning that the 2 layer (with drop lining) should not be treated with a wash – in waterproofer? bit confused by the -3 layer fabrics bit within the hyphens –
3 layer is ok with the wash in stuff
is that right?

Yep, spray-on for for fabrics with a separate floating liner, wash-in for stuff that’s a single layer of fabric.

Nikwax definitely need better communication. skills. sadly.
It seems like really good stuff

To be fair, ‘soft shell’ is a confusing blanket terms that covers a range of different fabrics from membrane-based, windproof stuff like Windstopper, which is acually effectively waterproof. Via double weave fabrics, which are closely woven, highly weather resistant, non-membrane fabrics, through to lined soft shell. You can argue that Buffalo and other pile / Pertex isn’t soft shell at all, but it’s a moot point really.

A good general rule, as you say, is to use a spray-on reproofer if your garment has a wicking lining or a separate drop liner.

Hey BadlyWiredDog

Yep, spray-on for for fabrics with a separate floating liner, wash-in for stuff that’s a single layer of fabric.

The spray stuff seems more effective too, my Sweet Protection Goretex Active was still wetting out after a TX-direct wash in treatment, the spray worked well. as others have written though the factory DWR (apparently quite toxic that stuff) is the only really effective stuff for wetting-out and its soon gone.

Bought some ShowersPass pants recently, seem pretty good if a little hot, they actually recommend Nikwax TX-Direct wash-in

anyhoo, thanks
I thought that was it.
I guess its obvious once you know, don’t wash in waterproof anything that wicks moisture.
[which kinda makes me wonder how the DWR treated outer allows moisture out, plainly it does ;~} ]

neil

So to update the thread. I bought some Nikwax and Endura spray on re-proofer (jacket is Endura pro sl shell II)
Washed last night in Nikwax, and then sprayed with re-proofer while still wet/damp.

This morning it had all dried so I flicked water onto it to test and it beaded nicely. Came back to it a few minutes later and where the drops of water had beaded, it had now soaked into the fabric and there were little drop sized wet patches. Not sure if I have knackered the jacket or done something wrong.

That’s what I found with washing jackets. Looks like a beads up nicely and jacket feels slightly waxy, but in any real rain it just gets wet!

I have a TNF jacket which beads amazingly well. Hence I don’t dare ever wash it, as it is by far the best DWR finish I have ever seen….

I have a three year old Decathlon sailing jacket that still beads very well and doesn’t wet out but I use it for walking so it doesn’t get dirty often. I follow the Decathlon guide below but every now and then I brush Thompsons Water Seal on to the jacket, it looks like it just runs off but the jacket beads noticeably better after it is done.

HOW TO REACTIVE THE JACKET’S WATER REPELLENCY
step 1: before washing

Close all zips and flaps and remove any parts of the garment that cannot be washed. Also remember to loosen the straps and elastic parts and empty the pockets.
Then turn the garment inside out to wash it.
HOW TO REACTIVE THE JACKET’S WATER REPELLENCY
step 2: washing

You can wash your jacket on a synthetic cycle at 30° or 40°C with your usual detergent. Do not use fabric conditioner, which could damage the existing performance of the garment, or bleach.
Also take care not to bend your jacket too much when you place it in the washing machine and do not overload your machine.
Very important: select a thorough rinse or double rinse to completely remove all detergent residue.
HOW TO REACTIVE THE JACKET’S WATER REPELLENCY
step 3: drying

Drying is a crucial phase in reactivating the water repellent treatment.
We recommend that you lay your jacket flat on a clothes rack and leave it out to dry in the open. Caution: never dry your jacket directly on a radiator.
Then place it in the tumble dryer on a short synthetics cycle, i.e. 10 to 15 minutes, before turning it back the right way round. Caution: do not over-dry the garment.

as others have written though the factory DWR (apparently quite toxic that stuff) is the only really effective stuff for wetting-out and its soon gone.

There’s an ongoing debate about fluro-carbons in DWRs and whether it’s more sustainable to use a potentially more harmful DWR during manufacture on the basis that it’s more durable, so long term better, with less need for reproofing, or simply to use a less harmful treatment to start with.

Different fabrics hold DWR differently. As a generalisation, it’s easier to apply an aftermarket treatment to a polyester face fabric than Nylon/polyamide, but polyesters tends to be less durable fabric.

I think one of the problems with aftermarket DWRs is that it’s important to get the fabric super clean before application, but that’s very hard to actually do. Grangers has washing machines that are only ever used with technical cleaners and their reproofing products, but that’s not exactly feasible for normal people.

The standard advice is to run a boil wash through the machine first and clean out detergent dispensers thoroughly, but there’s only so much you can do. When I replaced a broken drum on my old washing machine, the outer drum was literally caked with congealed detergent from previous use. I suspect that’s the case with most washing machines, so you’re always going to get some contamination which can impact on how well the re-treatment works.

Outdry stuff is great! permanent beading, slightly less breathable than goretex shakedry, but way tougher .

Slightly odd cut on mine though. Will size down next time.

Majority of waterproofs still have PFC DWR which will generally be reactivated by tumble drying on a warm setting. Nikwax and Grangers don’t require the heat activation but most jackets will benefit from it.