[Closed] V.Dull - One for the Hi-Fi bods pls - Speaker cable suggestions pls...

Kettle's on. Battenburg anyone?

I'm not a hi-fi buff, but did a fair bit of research for my AV set-up and ended up buying this stuff, which seems to do the biz

(someone who knows more than me may be able to put you straight though)

[url] http://www.tvcables.co.uk/cgi-bin/tvcables/SPC05.html [/url]

make sure you connect it the right way round

got any shortbread and early grey please.

If you can tell the difference between any reasonable gauge OFC cables in a true ABX blind test I'll be amazed! If the runs are not massively long then the 'bits of string' will be as good as anything. I can give you techy reasons why if we're both sufficiently bored.

I used to use Nordorst but its too costly and I had to give it back 😀

I now use QED Silver Anniversary stuff, its about £10 per meter and gives very good results, here's the, erm, details:

QED Silver Anniversary XT Bi Wire Speaker Cable (Priced per unterminated metre). The QED Silver Anniversary XT Bi Wire-like the normal XT, successfully introcuces QED's renowned X-Tube technology into a mid-priced cable for the first time. The precise cylindrical construction of the silver-plated, 99.999% pure, oxygen free copper cables reduces the distortion caused by ''skin effect''. The result is a completely neutral speaker cable that allows good hi-fi and home cinema equipment to shine. The QED Silver Anniversary XT Bi-Wire speaker cable is attractively finished, with each silver-plated core visible through a flexible 3.9mm diameter clear polyethylene outer sheath.

don't skimp on the interconnects though, van den hul at least!

8 quid for 10m it's even flat.

http://www.rapidonline.com/1/1/72-2x-ofc-flat-speaker-cable.html

You have to be careful with naim amps as they do not have a zobel network in the output stage so use at least 3 meters of cable and make sure it's multistrand that there would work fine.

I use [url= http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/CASPEAK79.html ]this[/url]

As other have said, I'd be amazed if you can tell the difference. It's white so is very inconspicuous where it runs against skirting board.

I've always like the look of [url= http://www.venhaus1.com/diycatfivecables.html ]this[/url] if you've time to burn and believe the WOO. Cheap too.

I would probably go for something like [url= http://www.highendcable.co.uk/Nordost%20ODIN%20Speaker%20Cable.htm ]this.[/url]

Will really liven up your system.

13amp mains flex

Kev

I have gone from bell wire to tri-wired Linn cable, and yes there was a difference (the Linn cable was not expensive back then, dunno what it costs now?).

As for interconnects, I have done comparisons between standard free cheapo cables, Linn's standard offering (c.£20) and Linn's Silver cable (c.£175) and could not hear any significant differences. I don't know if the suggestion for using 'van den hul at least' was a joke, but in the context of your system, it should be taken as one.

13A mains cable before you try anything else...
*SNAP*

LMAO @ Nordst cable!

I accept that there may be some audible difference between some cables to some people (although I am yet to tell any difference myself), but spending over £15k on some speaker cables is frankly mental.

The connection between an amp and a speaker is electrical not pure liquid pixy dust. Surely once you've gone beyond a cable with a low electrical resistance and doesn't change over time the electricity is still going to get from A to B.

have I over simplified it.

btw.... I use some of [url= http://www.richersounds.com/product/speaker-cables/cambridge-audio/symphony-bi-wire/gale-symphony-biwire ]this [/url] to bi wire my front speakers and some of [url= http://www.richersounds.com/product/speaker-cables/cambridge-audio/ultra-micro/audi-ultramicro-200m ]this[/url] for the rears. i still can't believe that I didn't buy the cheaper stuff for the rears. it was a moment of madness thinking that it was going to be buried under the floor and couldn't be changed so more expensive must mean better (and I know better than that).

I used some cat 5 cable I had hanging around to make up some speaker cables; even took the trouble to bi-wire and everything. Expensive cables are for [s]mugs[/s] people with exceptional hearing.....

stevehine - Member
I used some cat 5 cable I had hanging around to make up some speaker cables; even took the trouble to bi-wire and everything. Expensive cables are for[s] mugs[/s] people [s]with [/s] who would like to think they have exceptional hearing.....

FTFY

@druidh

Well spotted 🙂

Joolsberger is correct. The Nait 2 uses the characteristics of a certain length of NACA5 (our speaker cable) as part of the design. I might have some, mail me. A highly capacitive cable will cause the amp to oscillate, so avoid those. If in doubt, contact Naim HQ and they will advise you as to whether the cable you want to use is suitable.

If you weave the Cat 5 cable as per the recipes on the web you wil get a high capacitance cable I believe, not necessarily good.

Try the Van Damme cable, makes the Richer Sounds stuff look expensive:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Van-Damme-Professional-Studio-Speaker/dp/841311330X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1296832648&sr=8-1

As good as my Kef stuff but doesn't look as discrete.

Unfortunately mains cable appears lacking to me.

Yes, watch out for those dodgily built Naim amps that are cable sensitive...

According to the shopkeeper, I overbought loudspeaker for my Cambridge audio 'rubbish' (he got very upset with me) by buying QED Silver Anniversary at something like £5/m at the time (2001 ish). However I only needed 6m or so and it made an astonishing difference, so it was definitely £30 very well spent!

It was just the bass cable run I upgraded at that time (treble run was upgraded later with other kit at the same time) but it reveald absolutely tons of bass detail and even a good chunk of volume.

Anything with a low inductance.

High capacitance using cat 5 may be an issue for some amps prone to oscillation, but will be fine for most.

NAIM NAC A5

Interesting thinking from Naim. I've previously run into issues where a capacitative load in the crossover sets off amp oscillation which can be damped by the resistance of a skinnier speaker cable. Cables that are too long and thin will introduce a series resistance and thus change the woofers' electrical parameters as well as changing the crossover's transfer functions. Mains cable is fat enough unless you're running extension speakers around a stately home.

absolutely tons of bass detail and even a good chunk of volume

hmmm...

hmmm...

You don't know what he was using before. Spaghetti perhaps.

Spaghetti perhaps.

Maybe he hadn't even connected them at all...

The only thing you need to get right with cables is matching electrical properties to the item delivering the current. For that reason, I thoroughly recommend you use naims relatively inexpensive naca5 cable to match your nait.

quick highjack <apologies>

What is amplifier osciallation and how do I know if my amplifier is oscillating ? <genuine quesiton>

Kev

Surely the best speaker wire is made by companies that take out full page ads in hi-fi mags?

Amplifiers generally incorporate negative feedback to improve linearity.
This feedback, if designed badly (or 'well' according to some hifi companies) can allow the amplifier to oscillate (i.e. to produce a alternating output without any input, or 'ring' after the input has finished.
Connecting capacitative loads increases the risk of this behaviour.

You know it's doing it because it sounds awful (and possibly breaks your amp).

Naim naca5. I think it needs to be copper as well.

Yes, watch out for those dodgily built Naim amps that are cable sensitive...

I suppose you could look at it like that. Another view would be that it's fine to assume that you will connect your amplifier to your speakers using a cable. If you could fix the characteristics of that cable by telling your customers what to use, you can then incorporate that data into your amp design. It's actually a very intelligent piece of engineering, but does rely on people reading their manuals. Oh, and on people not providing misinformation on the internet. That's also useful.

It's actually a very intelligent piece of engineering,

What, a Naim power amp? Are you serious? It's an very intelligent piece of [i]marketing[/i], not engineering.

White men can't dance, but they can talk for hours about the equipment that makes the sounds they can't dance to..

I use these.Very nice
http://www.russandrews.com/product.asp?lookup=1&region=UK&currency=GBP&pf_id=3167&customer_id=PAA0479027311028SFOGKXEMYRXJWMBN

What, a Naim power amp? Are you serious? It's an very intelligent piece of marketing, not engineering.

Yes, I like it as a solution. Lol at your marketing dig. I've worked at Naim for about 10 years. We didn't even employ anyone in marketing for most of that time, yet managed to sell about £100M of UK built hi end kit. I bet that [i]really[/i] irritates you 😀

Essentially any decent multistand will work with your Nait. NacA5 is not as cheap as it once was, used to be a couple of quid a meter but I think its about 8 pounds a meter now. Van damme or that one I posted will be fine.

RichPenny - seriously, you work for Naim? How cool is that.

All smutty puns aside, seriously do you know how many hours of pleasure you've given me over the last five years?

OK so there's no preface I could reasonably write to make that line sound any less 'dave bromance' thread but seriously, some of my happiest times off the bike and in the absence of my wife and son have been in the company of my Naim hifi.

Thank you.

yes, she was just Penny before she started working at Naim, then she became RichPenny...

geetee1972

+1 (Also in the absence of geetee's wife and contribution to the gene pool...)

I thought RichPenny was a bloke. I'm sure that came up on a thread a little while back.

they take all sorts at Naim.

absolutely tons of bass detail and even a good chunk of volume

hmmm...

Look, I'm a scientist of sorts, and a musician of sorts with a good ear. I'm not going to pretend to explain why it was better or bang on about it, but it was a clear improvement. I was there, you weren't, so naff off 🙂

I was there, you weren't, so naff off

Molgrips, they're guilty of 'I can't comprehend how you can comprehend it, so therefore it must be incomprehensible' syndrome.

Open up your speakers and amp and gave a look at how they are wired inside. Bet its not with ultra expensive unobtanium multi strand oxygen free copper wire or whatever.
Really can't see the point of expensive speaker cables if the first and last few inches are almost bell wire.

Open up your speakers and amp and gave a look at how they are wired inside. Bet its not with ultra expensive unobtanium multi strand oxygen free copper wire or whatever.

Er they are actually but the rest of your comment is spot on.

Open up your speakers and amp and gave a look at how they are wired inside. Bet its not with ultra expensive unobtanium multi strand oxygen free copper wire or whatever.
Really can't see the point of expensive speaker cables if the first and last few inches are almost bell wire.

My thoughts exactly. They may be short runs but they are utter cr@p. And if anyone can explain the benefit of bi-wiring with science and not magic audiophile pixey dust I'm all ears.

I reckon my hi-fi sounds much better now I've put some holograms on the speakers.

kimber cables..

I have a pair of British made relatively expensive speakers and they are certainly not wired with Gucci cables inside! Neither was my Cambridge Audio amp.

[i]Mr Woppit - Member
NAIM NAC A5[/i]

Naim Amp = NAIM speaker cable. I can't believe you have had a NAIM Amp for 20 years and not used their cables. But, admittedly I used Nordost for 10 years with a NAIM amp before I saw, or rather heard, the error of my ways 😀

I second, or third, or whatever, the Van Damme suggestion. Cheap, capable and very well regarded by those that know, or have nothing better to do, or whatnot.

I am a bloke, have been called Rich all my life. If the doubts about my gender persist, I may be forced to post supporting photographic evidence 😯 Trust me TurnerGuy, no-one works in HiFi for the money!

To gain audible loudness from changing speaker cables requires an increase of 1dB output. This means that with an 8 ohm speaker the previous cable had a resistance of more than 2 ohms. If the old cable was cheap bell wire then the runs would need to be 100' long. Do you live in the Palace of Versailles?

Never forget that you can't hear without using your brain, and the power of the placebo effect is stronger than
The Force when it comes to psychoacoustics!

There is actually a reason why biwiring makes a difference - a speaker designer told me once but I have forgotten now.

However he also pointed out that the designer would not voice the speaker (for those who don't just use computers but listen) using the speaker biwired and would also use fairly normal cable like the Van Damme.

By playing around bi-wiring and using different types of cable for the bass and treble drivers you are basically overriding the expertise of the speaker designer.

I'm good friends with a reviewer from the worlds most highly esteemed hi-fi mag.. and so I've had the rare priviledge to have listened to an awful lot of kit and cable.. and I've also had endless opportunities to compare huge varieties of combinations of cabling and kit [i]back to back[/i] from the comfort of home with the benefit of time.. (and good food and wine and music)

there is an undeniable and remarkable difference in the quality of sound when using different cables..

it's got absolutely nothing to do with loudness and everything to do with depth... richness and quality of sound..

And if anyone can explain the benefit of bi-wiring with science and not magic audiophile pixey dust I'm all ears.

Me too. However, having bi wired and bi amped, there is a huge difference.

I think it's got something to do with the fact there's no crossover. Although that should only affect the middle range, whereas what happens when you bi wire/amp is you get way way more at the top and bottom as well as a much clearer middle.

My cheap bi-amped system now sounds far clearer than anything else in my price range and anything I've listened to at five times the price. So I'm a bit locked in. No way I could go back to one amp. The only thing I would ever upgrade to for purely sonic reasons would be another 2x power + control setup.

Until those comparisons are done in a true double blind ABX fashion then I will not believe them, the brain is too easily swayed by other external information. I'm fortunate to work in this field and it's endlessly fascinating but cable voodoo does not stack up.

it's got absolutely nothing to do with loudness and everything to do with depth... richness and quality of sound..

+1

As I only had 2x 1.5m cable run, I had some £60/m stuff I blagged when buying my amp a while back. Out of interest I wired them up with my old Silver anniversary stuff first, then swapped. The difference was pretty astounding in my system.

How can I get a working bi-amp system then? Two identical amps? How is it all wired up?

True biamping with an active crossover and EQ can work very well indeed - Linkwitz takes this approach with his amazing Orion designs. Biamping with passive crossovers is a waste of money, biwiring likewise. You can't do multi-way loudspeakers without some kind of crossover be it active or passive electrical, acoustical or mechanical.

You can either use one mono (or a stereo power amp bridged for mono) amp per speaker or if your speakers have bi wire connections you can use one stereo power amp for bass and once for treble.

It's pretty easy to do.

There are many diagrams on line.

I tend to agree with the post above if you're going for many amps best but costly to go active.

Lots of people like speakers without or with the bare minimum of crossovers mine for example have one component in the crossover to stop the tweeters blowing.

Aarghh, it's like talking to scientologists!!! 😉

No convincing arguments yet then! I can accept biamping improves things but would say it's a result of the extra power on tap. I still can't see how biwiring helps.

the brain is too easily swayed by other external information

that's a valid point... and not one that I would care to debate..

the cheapest and most effective upgrade for any hi-fi system is a 400 microgramme dose of good LSD

Until those comparisons are done in a true double blind ABX fashion then I will not believe them, the brain is too easily swayed by other external information.

Well that's a flawed statement anyway you muppet.

You're saying you'll only believe there is a difference is someone can hear a difference based on a double blind test in order to remove the possibility that the differece they are hearing is all in their mind.

Well der! Of course it's all in their mind, how else are they hearing it? Whatever it is they 'believe' they are hearing differently [i]is [/i]what they are hearing differently.

Besides, are you really sitting there and suggesting that you are better qualified to define my experience of reality than I am?

Have you any idea how stupid that makes you look?

Geetee on that basis change your mind and your reality changes. I did and it saved me a small fortune in cables that make no difference.

Joolsburger that's great; I have no problem with that either.

I use very ordinary NAC A5 in my system. I've auditioned cable that cost £1000 for two 3m runs and there was an audible difference in the character of the sound. I couldn't work out whether that was different better, different worse or just different so I didn't bother buying it.

I have heard what I perceived to be both a difference and an improvement in other systems between different wiring looms as well.

What I don't understand is why the majority of sceptics seem happy to concede that changing components will have an impact on the quality of the reproduction, but not the speaker cables or the rest of the loom.

Yeah, what perplexes me about biwiring, is that it's all coming out of the same source at the amp, isn't it? So what's the point of removing that little gold plated link bit, and running wire into the bass and treble contacts?

Personaly, I think a lot of hi-fi stuff is utter guff, and the kit is bought by middle-aged blokes with diminished hearing anyway, simply as status symbols. I appreciate that some expensive kit sounds better than 'budget' or cheap gear, but I'd rather take the word of sound engineers who have proper scientific qualifications in this stuff, and who use electrical flex to wire up concert halls, than hi-fi buffs who swear blind they can tell the difference between cables and other such stuff, when science can prove they can't.

Yeah so some NAIM gear might sound better than stuff a tenth of it's price, but there's an awful lot of snake oil surrounding 'hi-fi'.

That Russ Andrews bloke, in particular, needs a slapping.

The point of ABX blind testing is that if you can consistently correctly identify whether X is A or B, when X is randomly changed without your knowledge then you can hear a difference. Without this you can subconsciously will yourself to hear a difference whenever you're listening to what you believe is the superior item. Sorry.

Well that's a flawed statement anyway you muppet

the flaw in CGGs argument.. and the glowing neon sign above CCG that proclaims muppet.. is the fact that CGG is trying to construct an argument based on volume gained.. (of a whole flippin decibel ferchrissakes!!)

from this we can assume that CCG has absolutely no flipping clue what is being discussed in this thread..

and any work that CGG does in this field or any other is nothing to do with hi-fi or audiophilia

Personaly, I think a lot of hi-fi stuff is utter guff, and the kit is bought by middle-aged blokes with diminished hearing anyway, simply as status symbols. I appreciate that some expensive kit sounds better than 'budget' or cheap gear, but I'd rather take the word of sound engineers who have proper scientific qualifications in this stuff, and who use electrical flex to wire up concert halls, than hi-fi buffs who swear blind they can tell the difference between cables and other such stuff, when science can prove they can't.

Yeah so some NAIM gear might sound better than stuff a tenth of it's price, but there's an awful lot of snake oil surrounding 'hi-fi'.

I kind of lose track of how many times you contradict yourself in this statement Elfin.

Can you just clarify something for me.

Are you saying that there is potentially a difference between how one system sounds versus another or are you saying that there is never ANY difference between any system you care to sample?

I have to say that the great think about hi-fi snake oil is that it is very good for the economy.

The dB point was regarding one example earlier. So how many crossovers have you designed? 😉

Not the kind of thread I normally get involved in. However.... this one's so amusing that I couldn't resist.

Part of my job is in professional audio - stadiums, theatres etc - some of it gigs, the majority permanent install - I often design the systems.

You won't find these really quite ridiculous pixie-dust cables used anywhere in professional context. Most pro users will have cables made from bog-standard 2core or 4core x 2.5mm or 4mm dependent on use - £2 per metre tops. Van Damme stuff if you're feeling a bit more flush.

You won't find these really quite ridiculous pixie-dust cables used anywhere in professional context. Most pro users will have cables made from bog-standard 2core or 4core x 2.5mm or 4mm dependent on use - £2 per metre tops. Van Damme stuff if you're feeling a bit more flush.

cos it's cost effective..

besides the fact that you wouldn't pick up the difference between a few hertz here and there on the midrange with the ambient sound of joe public milling around the acoustic monstrosities that you work on..

So how many production crossovers or enclosures have you designed?

none.. but your free party rigs/car stereo boomboxes etc are a gazillion miles away from the listening experience of an audiophile..

Yes I accept there are differences between the sound from different systems, and I know from experience a system costing several grand [i]can[/i] sound better than one costing a couple of hundred quid, but stuff like what Russ andrews comes out with is just utter bullshit. Let's be honest.

Makes me laugh, some of the systems I've seen in some people's houses; twenty thousand pounds plus worth of kit, in a bog standard new build house with cavity walls, laminate flooring, soft furnishings etc. Complete and utter waste of money. I've actually heard such systems in rooms so acoustically bad, you'd be just as well off with a 'budget' £300 Richer Sounds set-up. Had to stop meself from laughing listening to blokes with less than good hearing, waffle on about how fantastic their hi-fi sounds. Do me a favour.

Elfin's Top Tip to improve the sound of [i]any[/i] system:

[img] [/img]

Raw materials available in most inner city estates, as well as some 'trendy' parts of town...

you elfin knows it

AH OK well that argument I can go with Elfin.

What is it you do that takes you into these peoples' houses?

Just people I've known, Geetee.

No I'm sorry; there's only so much the Human ear can actually hear, and this ability diminishes with age. Hence my bemusement at blokes in their forties and fifties spending silly money on hi-fi gear they truly won't be able to fully appreciate. And when it comes to the kind of crap people like Russ Andrews spout, well, that's when my patience wears a bit thin. Can't be arsed listening to such rubbish people like that come out with.

Nowt wrong with having nice stuff, just don't fool yerself that you are somehow special and elevated from the common herd just because you own expensive hi-fi gear.

Ketamine can alter your perception of music somewhat. LSD even more so. I wouldn't recommend such things though, much less condone their use....