That’ll be because tube amps have output transformers and so the external load isn’t directly coupled into the power stage of the amplifier

I am aware of that.

A well designed* solid state amp should be immune from this kind of artefact.

One would hope that the Quads fall into this category – especially since a lot of high quality speakers have been designed whilst being driven from Quad amps (Harbeth, probably Spendor, probably all of the BBC designed speakers).

I am aware of that.

Good… difficult to tell on this thread what background / knowledge anyone has…

As for the Quads; you would have thought they would have been immune; as a manufacturer they were of the opinion that speaker cable was unimportant unless excessively long and thin ….

If there is a difference, you should be able to observed it by recording the sound coming out of the speakers with a microphone and performing a spectral analysis, non?

It may mean that, but your argument has the same faith based logic as to those who believe in the various deities that you like to belittle.

Well, not exactly. Everybody is in agreement that there is an actual sound coming out of the speakers in the first place that might lend itself to differing perceptions. In the case of deities, there is no matching completely shared experience.

I bow to the superior electrical expertise, but I seem to remember an argument being made to do with the differences being something to do with the different crystalline structures inherent in variable manufacturing methods/materials?

I’m pretty sure (without going back over all the posts from the old threads) that it was suggested that the changes caused by these different structures was what could not be measured with the existing technology…

Not saying it’s a fact, just a hypothesis, like…

different crystalline structures inherent in variable manufacturing methods/materials?

Not prepared to bet a hundred quid on it then?

Don’t quite understand your textual link there, but Oh, sure. Set it up. NAIM equipment into ProAc speakers, please. I’ll bring the CD’s.

I know the guy who ran Spendor and now works for Harbeth, and was discussing cables as one of the external crossovers of his I tried worked well with a tube amp but not with a solid state amp – and he said that they used to see this on Quad 606s as well.

If there is a difference, you should be able to observed it by recording the sound coming out of the speakers with a microphone and performing a spectral analysis, non?

One day I will do this when I have nothing to do for a few hours – I have a Lynx two soundcard and a Behringer ECM8000 mic within easy reach of the hifi.

Don’t quite understand your textual link there

Nah, there wasn’t one, sorry about that.

I can certainly provide some Naim kit but I have a perfectly serviceable Meridian Amp paired to B&W speakers which will more than do the job. It is the cable/ears we should be testing after all.

Email in the profile if you are serious. Always glad to take the money of those who have more than sense. 😉

I’m not sure about the Meridian/B&W factor. I think it may be that only equipment of a certain level is the type able to show up these differences, hence those who maintain the differences DON’T exist, seem to be listening on “budget” Hifi setups at best. At least, that’s my impression from these threads.

So Naim is higher grade than Meridian?

I think it may be that only equipment of a certain level is the type able to show up these differences

I shall get back in my box then and leave it to the experts. 😆

TurnerGuy – Member
So Naim is higher grade than Meridian?

In my opinion, yes.

Torminalis – Member

I think it may be that only equipment of a certain level is the type able to show up these differences

I shall get back in my box then and leave it to the experts.

Oh, O.K. then. Where are they?

And ProAc better than B&W?

I did have some tablets once which where lovely on my tube amp but nasty on the solid state amp.

My point.

I’d be happy to accept the challenge, using equipment that I’m used to listening with…

I have ProAc Response D15’s – they sound completely different to the Tablets.

I’d be happy to accept the challenge, using equipment that I’m used to listening with…

So would I! Your place it is then…

How can they sound completely different – surely all speakers from a design house should be similair – with only differences like lack of bass in small speakers, etc being present.

Can you get to Leatherhead?

I’d like to see the outcome of this.

Leatherheads near me – we could have a cable-rolling party!

I think it may be that only equipment of a certain level is the type able to show up these differences, hence those who maintain the differences DON’T exist, seem to be listening on “budget” Hifi setups at best

Oh good grief…

Are you really telling me that I can’t tell the difference between speaker cables because I haven’t got expensive enough equipment ?

And that you are prepared to prove it by using CD’s as reference material ?

Are you aware of quantisation error and digital dither routinely present in CD’s ?

Can you get to Leatherhead?

Yep, I live near Guildford. We could go for a ride afterwards if you like.

Leatherheads near me – we could have a cable-rolling party!

Sadly; I’m at the other end of the country; however I’m entirely happy to supply a set of pre-rolled cat 5 speaker cables to be used in the test if it’s actually going to happen.

I’d suggest NOT using a naim amp; for no other reason than it claims to be specifically designed to run with a certain length and type of speaker cable.

I’d suggest NOT using a naim amp; for no other reason than it claims to be specifically designed to run with a certain length and type of speaker cable.

But the argument is, that all cable sounds the same…

It is Naim that suggest being careful with speaker cables, cat 5 cable may not be a good idea as it has a high capacitance, does it not?

But the argument is, that all cable sounds the same…

It is; however NAIM claim that the speaker cable characteristics are an integral part of the amp and specify minimum lengths etc..

It’s not so much the sound being different that would worry me; but (as an example) my cat 5 cables have a higher capacitance than most. In the unlikely event that your expensive naim became unstable and oscillated (It does not have a zobel netowrk to prevent this) it could easily melt istelf and you will be left with an expensive block of metal with no warranty to boot.

I’d suggest using an amp that doesn’t specifically warn you not to do this; that is all !

I think the reason that Naim suggest specific cables is because they do not use Zobel network style filters on the outputs, you have to use something without a weird capacitance or inductance issues. My £1.80 PA cable fits the bill perfectly and I would be happy to do the test.

Soldered banana plugs?

crimped, surely…

Don’t want to read through pages of posts. Speakers cables make a huge difference.

Naim amp work best with Naim cables. NACA5 and in the grand scheme not expensive.

Is there a pattern that it is all the Naim owners saying cables make a huge difference?

I only say that they can make some difference…

But the argument is, that all cable sounds the same…

My argument would be that in the short runs used for hi-fi the capacitance, inductance and resistance of even cheap small gauge cables is sufficiently small to have no audible effect. With longer runs these electrical parameters will affect the t/s parameters of the loudspeaker drivers and the transfer functions of the passive crossover – but that requires seriously long runs.

All this stuff is measurable. I remember being perplexed years ago when I first used SoundForge, that a piece of music could be represented by a simple wiggly line. But once you realise that that is indeed the case, and our ears hear vibrations in a similar way to a microphone, then you realise that you can run all manner of interesting tests to find out how a piece of equipment changes that that waveform.

And I don’t think long runs are required for certain speaker and SS amp combinations – I only was using 3 metres or so.

Torminalis – Member
I think the reason that Naim suggest specific cables is because they do not use Zobel network style filters on the outputs, you have to use something without a weird capacitance or inductance issues. My £1.80 PA cable fits the bill perfectly and I would be happy to do the test.

Soldered banana plugs?

Sent you an email. Soldered bananas, yes.

… and 3.5M long each.

freshly screwed in connections would be better – nice and gas tight – no solder to get in the way of the connection.

and 3.5M long each

I am currently using a pair of 8m long cables, I could easily cut one in half now though. I think that it would be equally interesting to leave the cable as it is and perform a test before and after the cut as again, I should there would be an negligible and inaudible difference.

Game on!

TurnerGuy – Member
freshly screwed in connections would be better – nice and gas tight – no solder to get in the way of the connection.

Not in this case – mine are soldered, we want a level playing field…

A “negligible” difference is, ahem – a difference…

Which of course, would not be inaudible.

I only say that they can make some difference…

Yeah but like all things special to a person, little things to one person, especially if they are not interested are HUGE things to soemone who is passionate.

Same with bikes.

Yes Naim owners tend to like Naim cables, an observer would say Naim had us over a barrel, when in fact comparing to the cost of some highend cable it is truly cheap. Naim could quite easily charge 5x as much and all Naim owners would buy it, but they don’t. But infact the cable works really well with all Naim Amps from the nait 5 to the 552.