Subscribe now and choose from over 30 free gifts worth up to £49 - Plus get £25 to spend in our shop
Rich Penny - can I email you for advice, I think ( as I understand things ) I've got to a brick wall so far as CD quality goes...... unless I go NAIM....
Rich... the question was to you about what these critical time requirements, as in, just how much power do you think you need in how short a time?
Yunki... that's correct as Hi-Fi uses different laws of physics to the rest of us.
At least that would explain things... 😉
Anyway, enough of this... I have a thesis to finish writing, and this isn't helping!
Yunki... that's correct as Hi-Fi uses different laws of physics to the rest of us.
I was just wandering if perhaps the folk developing the technology are working at a more advanced level than some of the cynics are.. it's not impossible or even unlikely.. is it..?
I'm out of here..
too much pompous waffle gives me nervous indigestion
Feel free, email in profile if you think I can help.
Yunki, I'm not sure that's entirely fair. There is a lot of guff around hi-fi, that's undebateable. It stands to reason that a high degree of cynicism exists to balance that out. Equally though, there are a lot of exceptional engineers working in the field, people who've spent decades analysing the possibilities. None of them are on here though!
I got some cheap class t amps off ebay and was amazed by the performance, really noticable quality confirmed in certain aspects by the stats. More things to get wrong/right in an amp than cables.
It's the indigestion.. it's making me 'orrible.. 👿
As said above, there's certainly loads of bull talked about hifi. Back when I used to sell it, early to mid Eighties, just when cd was coming in, some of the stuff the 'flat earthers' were advocating was farcical, like removing digital watches and other semiconductor devices from the listening environment because they could adversely affect the sound!
I used to sell B&O, Rotel, Denon, Pioneer, Technics, B&W, Castle, KEF and Wharfdale, among others, and I can confidently say that back then B&O failed every time in a demo against something like a Rotel amp costing around £120, with a pair of B&W's with a Denon cd front end. Pioneer and Technics cd players were very harsh sounding compared to vinyl back then, too. Now I use a Yamaha DSP-AX2 AV amp into Sony Chorus satellites and sub with a Cambridge Audio DVD99 for music with skinny two-core wiring and it sounds just fine to my ears. The DVD99 is a lovely player handling CD/DVD-A/SACD/DVD, and I turn off all effects off for music, which may be why others have issues with music playback through AV amps, any effects processing ruins music. I can clearly hear mastering differences between various CD's, some early ones sound very dull while others are better than much newer discs. Fairground Attraction's [i]First Of A Million Kisses[/i], which I always thought was a good recording sounds very dull now, while Paul Simon's [i]Hearts And Bones[/i], from around the same time, is a stunning recording. If my system can show clear differences in mastering of a recording, then it's good enough for me, even with the skinny wires. 😆
Rather than listening to other people with very limited knowledge of electronics but apparently boundless cynicism telling me how stupid I am.Aaaah, of course, everyone who is at all cynical about this has only a limited knowledge about electronics.
Your comment does not follow from mine at all! Terrible reasoning!
CZ - doesn't take much to be able to tella crap CD from a good one 🙂
Elf - check fleabay for Cambridge Audio C500 and P500 if I were you. Afaik they were the only inexpensive control and power amps ever made.
There is a lot of guff around hi-fi, that's undebateable. It stands to reason that a high degree of cynicism exists to balance that out.
There is an awful lot of hokum in hifi and as long as the people trying to sell me expensive cable are also recommending this:
http://www.audiodestination.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=160&products_id=1518
I'll ignore them and go with the science.
I am not a cynic but I am trained to be scientifically sceptical.
[url= http://www.audiodestination.co.uk ]http://www.audiodestination.co.uk[/url]
Comedy gold.
SSC Base Classic
£430.00
[img] 
[/img]
The construction of two solid beech wood frames joined to each other by a string construction.
Beside the positve sound effect there also is an improvement in video components: there is more contrast and a calmer picture.
Artkustik Cable Animator ULTRA
£175.00
[img] 
[/img]
The Cables Animator's effect is based on physical phenomena but it does not require conventional energy for its operation...
Artkustik issues a warranty of 10 years on the Cable Animator, provided it is used as intended. If the Cable Animator is opened or used inappropriately, the warranty is void.
Artkustik Room Animator ULTRA
£675.00
[img] 
[/img]
This is one of the most amazing devices we have ever heard!
Just power it up and within 30 seconds, the Room Animator will optimise the sound in your listening environment.
Typical effects of this are:
The musicians have more space around them.
The music becomes clearer and even more dynamic.
The soundstage gains width,height and depth.
You can just sit back,relax and enjoy all your discs.
The Room Animator works purely according to the laws of Physics (the ordered movement of electrons in matter) and depends on the use of natural matter. It contains only naturally-occurring materials...
Whenever we listen to the music from a HiFi system, we need air in our room to transmit the sound. The more evenly arranged is the “sound conductivity” of the air, the better the acoustic behaviour of the room.
Is there any point with all this Gucci kit for home hi-fi when the original recording was most likely made using lesser equipment? Surely you are trying to extract information from the source (cd - record or whatever) that simply wasn't there in the first place?
You'd also expect the recording to have issues with the fact that I would think that they are not using £1k mains leads so all the problems caused by that (according to the people who make them anyhow) will be embedded into the original recording.
When I was a kid I tried swapping between Naim A5,
Mission Solid Core and mains twin and earth speaker cables to see if I could actually tell the difference.
My ears were still working properly back then and I swear I could tell which was which, with Naim being the smoothest, twin & earth being the brightest and the Mission somewhere in between.
I've still got all those cables in the loft, so when I get the time I'll try it again and report back.
However, after years of nightclubs and gigs, along with the inevitable ageing, my hearing ain't what it used to be. I really wish I'd used earplugs ALL the time, as opposed to 'now and then'. 🙁
There are always going to be Snake Oil salesmen in every sphere of life - but we don't decry the whole medical profession just because some idiot is selling slimming pills, do we?
Hi-Fi has had it's share of fools - anyone remember [url= http://www.belt.demon.co.uk/index.html ]Peter Belt[/url] and his little squares of sticky foil?
TBH I gave up reading the Hi-Fi press when some writers supported and eulogised Belt and I've never read a Hi-Fi mag since.
I realise that he's just playing with ideas of perception and the placebo effect, but it all got a bit too quasi religious for me.
Same with some of the Linn and Naim 'flat earthers' too, TBH.
I trust my own ears, no matter how knackered, to tell me what sounds good or not.
I'm really surprised that no one has taken up James Randi's million dollar cable challenge though.
I'm tempted to give it a go myself, if STW'ers chip in for the airfare & costs 😀
Some very interesting background to the Randi challenge [url= http://www.stereophile.com/thinkpieces/021708swiftboat/ ]here. [/url]
Randi's own website is [url= http://www.randi.org/site/ ]here. [/url]
I like and respect James Randi, but I think he's wrong in this case.
I am not a cynic but I am trained to be scientifically sceptical.
Me too. And the results of my experiment were that bi-wiring helped my setup, and bi-amping helped it lots more.
Rockhopper - fair point, but when you have even slightly decent kit you find that some albums are well made and some not. The fancier your stuff, the more you start chasing the perfect recording, I expect.
B+O do 'lifestyle' products
Nail. Head. Hit.
I can't see the point of having something much more spensive in a room that's far from being acoustically ideal.
Bit like noone here really needs anything more than a 300 quid MTB then, unless we're seasoned pros and can use it properly. No point in having a 4K full sus when you're far from being Steve Peat / Liam Killeen etc.
So, can anyone recommend a simple, 'budget' twin power and pre-amp set so's I can bi-amp my speakers up?
Why? No point in spending money on a better system in a room that's far from being acoustically ideal... Ahem 😉
noone here really needs anything more than a 300 quid MTB
Well that's rubbish for a start - maybe £1200 might be a better starting point. Normal XC mtb usage throughout the year will least its way through < XT standard gear, and if you like going downhill instead you will need some reasonable decent forks and a decently strong wheelset.
Even if the room is sub-standard there is a lot you can do with room treatment/furnishings/speaker positioning. Might be more of a problem in a box room.
[img] 
[/img]
Whatever you do, don't forget to get your cables off the floor. Otherwise you might as well not bother.
^^^^
I would love to put something like that in my lounge just to see the reaction on my wife's face 😈
[i]To be serious for a second, I find it very wearing that every time there's a thread like this I and my colleagues are accused of perpetuating some kind of massive fraud on an unsuspecting public.[/i]
[url] http://www.naimaudio.com/hifi-product-range/641 [/url] ?
Torminalis - MemberWhatever you do, don't forget to get your cables off the floor. Otherwise you might as well not bother.
Expanded polystyrene tubing (run along the skirting board) is just as effective and much cheaper. Slightly easier on the eye also, if you worry about that sort of thing.
IanMunro - Member
To be serious for a second, I find it very wearing that every time there's a thread like this I and my colleagues are accused of perpetuating some kind of massive fraud on an unsuspecting public.
Don't you realise it has "individual dielectric insulation chosen for its sound enhancing electrical properties"?
Can't speak from experience for the Power-Line, but it's a proper NAIM product so I wouldn't be surprised to find, on listening, that it made £400's-worth of difference
I spent £70 on a "Graham's Hydra" powerfeed for my stack and it was money well spent, as far as my ears and music-appreciation brain circuits are concerned...
http://www.grahams.co.uk/hi-fi/hifiaccessories/naim-hydra.html
molgrips - Member
I am not a cynic but I am trained to be scientifically sceptical.
Me too. And the results of my experiment were that bi-wiring helped my setup, and bi-amping helped it lots more.
But that's because bi-amping has clearly defined and very measurable performance enhancement effects when done correctly (ie the crossover is before the amps).
1. Overall power available is increased.
2. By splitting the large amplitude bass frequencies away from higher frequencies, the high frequencies are not affected by non-linearities / clipping when bass amplitudes are high (which happens quite frequently with certain types of music).
There is absolutely no way you can even measure the alleged improvements of a most of cables, never mind hear them (although this may not be the case for Naim stuff, since they use funny designs that are sensitive to cable reactance).
I think some of the stuff on this page would help you in hearing cable differences in your hifi:
http://www.nathanmarciniak.com/elemental/
I doubt it...
There is absolutely no way you can even measure the alleged improvements of a most of cables, never mind hear them
not true, In fact I'd happily prove it, anyone down south fancy bringing along some cheap speaker cable and I'll swap the runs on my system. You can then, for yourself, hear the difference.
Arguing this point is like saying all HiFi's sound the same. Cable can and does have a profound difference on sound that comes out of your speakers.
Good educational material here:
http://sound.westhost.com/articles.htm
With non-orchestral/choral music chasing 'perfect' sound can indeed be rather futile because you're not looking to reproduce the original acoustic sound but you're trying to recreate the sound the producer heard from the monitors in the control room when the recording was finally mastered. In which case you'd be best off spending your money on a load of acoustic treatment and a pair of these:
http://www.meyersound.com/products/studioseries/x-10/
Damnit; I promised myself I wouldn't bite...
I spent £70 on a "Graham's Hydra" powerfeed for my stack and it was money well spent
I'm sure that it's neatened up the cable spaghetti behind your stack a bit; but beyond that it's just a hard wired 5-way adapter. What effect could it possibly have on the sound...
not true, In fact I'd happily prove it, anyone down south fancy bringing along some cheap speaker cable and I'll swap the runs on my system. You can then, for yourself, hear the difference.
A better test would be to let someone blindfold *you* and then 'maybe' change out your cables for cheap ones and see if you could tell the difference - you reckon you could ? (any cynic in the south east up for testing MrNutts hearing ability?) - I'll happily send down some 'premium' cat-5 speaker cables...
Arguing this point is like saying all HiFi's sound the same.
No, it really isn't! In fact the horror when testing hi-fi's is how far from hi-fi most of them are...
There is absolutely no way you can even measure the alleged improvements of a most of cables, never mind hear them
not true, In fact I'd happily prove it, anyone down south fancy bringing along some cheap speaker cable and I'll swap the runs on my system. You can then, for yourself, hear the difference.
I think you ignored the word 'measure'
I'd happily prove it, anyone down south fancy bringing along some cheap speaker cable and I'll swap the runs on my system. You can then, for yourself, hear the difference.
You are on. I will take that bet. What is it worth?
I have some PA cable running my B&W speakers, costs about £1.80 per metre. You simply can't argue with ohms law.
stevehine - Member
Damnit; I promised myself I wouldn't bite...
What effect could it possibly have on the sound...
as far as my ears and music-appreciation brain circuits are concerned...
Perhaps you missed that bit.
Double blind trials! Do it ten times and see if you can tell the difference.
You are on. I will take that bet. What is it worth?
I am serious, I'll take your money if you are so confident.
When I first bought some Rogers AB-1 'subwoofers' for my LS3/5as, running from a Quad 707 (maybe a 306) I was very dissappointed as the sound was very dull and filtered compared to when I ran them before with a Rel sub. The AB-1s were in series with the LS3/5as, no change in speaker cable.
I changed from some 4mm stranded Quad branded cable to Nordost flatline and 'wham' the sound was completely clear again.
I have also had this effect when running some Cicable external crossovers from some Quad 707 amps, changed to a smaller diameter (Kef) cable and all the filtering effect went.
A tube amp I had at the same time wasn't affected like this.
I am not talking about improvement with cables here, just that some 'normal' spec cables managed to degrade the sound of my system. This implies to me that the cable forms part of the overall reactive load in conjunction with the speaker crossover/drivers and things aren't as simple as some people would like to make out.
I am talking about differences as large as when my Quad 34 was replaced by a decent pre-amp.
as far as my ears and music-appreciation brain circuits are concerned...
Perhaps you missed that bit.
You are correct; I did - however are you claiming there was a difference; or are you happily acknowledging that whilst there might not be a measurable difference - spending £70 made you feel like you had improved your hi-fi in some way ?
Double blind trials!
Wouldn't this require no one to know which cable is which until the experiment is over ? 😉
If the results from here are anything to go by; I know what my money is on...
[url= http://home.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_wire.htm ]Double blind results[/url]
There is no doubt with roughly 50% of users that changing cables changes sound.
It may very well be that these changes cannot be measured, but that could simply mean that the technology to measure the changes does not yet exist. The problem is, you have to know in the first place the nature of the thing that you are trying to measure so that you can, er, measure it... If you see what I mean...
In my experience, the perceptible difference between quality hifi cabling and solid electrical cable is obvious. The former sounds like music, the latter sounds like flat, expressionless noise.
[i]It may very well be that these changes cannot be measured, but that could simply mean that the technology to measure the changes does not yet exist.[/i]
It may mean that, but your argument has the same faith based logic as to those who believe in the various deities that you like to belittle.
As a start it might be worth maybe getting a degree in electronics, and building up an undertstanding as to what is and isn't measurable before offering the conjecture that something is audibly detectable, but not detectable by any instrument.
A tube amp I had at the same time wasn't affected like this.
That'll be because tube amps have output transformers and so the external load isn't directly coupled into the power stage of the amplifier; A well designed* solid state amp should be immune from this kind of artefact.
* NAIM excepted
Edit: Simply because I've never seen how they've engineered the output stages of their amps; I'm actually rather curious as to what aspect of the cable is important to the behaviour of the amp.
It may very well be that these changes cannot be measured
What absolute rubbish. The current being pushed through a speaker cable can very easily be measured. If you consider that the output of the amp is effectively an graph depicting air pressures (as is a record, a LPCM file etc). Both air pressure and electrical current are perfectly quantifiable.
Loads of people swear by homoeopathy, doesn't mean it hasn't been scientifically proved as complete hokum, same goes for cabling. The worlds most enthusiastic audiophiles cannot tell the difference between £1000p/m cabling and coat hangers and it has been proven, in double blind, scientific tests.
As I said above, I am happy to perform a double blind test for any and everyone on this thread and will bet hard cash that you can hear no difference. I love Hi fi, I have a lovely set up but I don't want to waste my money on snake oil. I will bet £100 that you can't tell the difference in a valid test with an independent observer of your choice.
That'll be because tube amps have output transformers and so the external load isn't directly coupled into the power stage of the amplifier
I am aware of that.
A well designed* solid state amp should be immune from this kind of artefact.
One would hope that the Quads fall into this category - especially since a lot of high quality speakers have been designed whilst being driven from Quad amps (Harbeth, probably Spendor, probably all of the BBC designed speakers).
I am aware of that.
Good... difficult to tell on this thread what background / knowledge anyone has...
As for the Quads; you would have thought they would have been immune; as a manufacturer they were of the opinion that speaker cable was unimportant unless excessively long and thin ....
If there is a difference, you should be able to observed it by recording the sound coming out of the speakers with a microphone and performing a spectral analysis, non?
It may mean that, but your argument has the same faith based logic as to those who believe in the various deities that you like to belittle.
Well, not exactly. Everybody is in agreement that there is an actual sound coming out of the speakers in the first place that might lend itself to differing perceptions. In the case of deities, there is no matching completely shared experience.
I bow to the superior electrical expertise, but I seem to remember an argument being made to do with the differences being something to do with the different crystalline structures inherent in variable manufacturing methods/materials?
I'm pretty sure (without going back over all the posts from the old threads) that it was suggested that the changes caused by these different structures was what could not be measured with the existing technology...
Not saying it's a fact, just a hypothesis, like...
different crystalline structures inherent in variable manufacturing methods/materials?
Not prepared to bet a hundred quid on it then?
Don't quite understand your textual link there, but Oh, sure. Set it up. NAIM equipment into ProAc speakers, please. I'll bring the CD's.
I know the guy who ran Spendor and now works for Harbeth, and was discussing cables as one of the external crossovers of his I tried worked well with a tube amp but not with a solid state amp - and he said that they used to see this on Quad 606s as well.
If there is a difference, you should be able to observed it by recording the sound coming out of the speakers with a microphone and performing a spectral analysis, non?
One day I will do this when I have nothing to do for a few hours - I have a Lynx two soundcard and a Behringer ECM8000 mic within easy reach of the hifi.
Don't quite understand your textual link there
Nah, there wasn't one, sorry about that.
I can certainly provide some Naim kit but I have a perfectly serviceable Meridian Amp paired to B&W speakers which will more than do the job. It is the cable/ears we should be testing after all.
Email in the profile if you are serious. Always glad to take the money of those who have more than sense. 😉
I'm not sure about the Meridian/B&W factor. I think it may be that only equipment of a certain level is the type able to show up these differences, hence those who maintain the differences DON'T exist, seem to be listening on "budget" Hifi setups at best. At least, that's my impression from these threads.
So Naim is higher grade than Meridian?
I think it may be that only equipment of a certain level is the type able to show up these differences
I shall get back in my box then and leave it to the experts. 😆
TurnerGuy - Member
So Naim is higher grade than Meridian?
In my opinion, yes.
Torminalis - MemberI think it may be that only equipment of a certain level is the type able to show up these differences
I shall get back in my box then and leave it to the experts.
Oh, O.K. then. Where are they?
And ProAc better than B&W?
I did have some tablets once which where lovely on my tube amp but nasty on the solid state amp.
My point.
I'd be happy to accept the challenge, using equipment that I'm used to listening with...
I have ProAc Response D15's - they sound completely different to the Tablets.
I'd be happy to accept the challenge, using equipment that I'm used to listening with...
So would I! Your place it is then...
How can they sound completely different - surely all speakers from a design house should be similair - with only differences like lack of bass in small speakers, etc being present.
Can you get to Leatherhead?
I'd like to see the outcome of this.
Leatherheads near me - we could have a cable-rolling party!
I think it may be that only equipment of a certain level is the type able to show up these differences, hence those who maintain the differences DON'T exist, seem to be listening on "budget" Hifi setups at best
Oh good grief...
Are you really telling me that I can't tell the difference between speaker cables because I haven't got expensive enough equipment ?
And that you are prepared to prove it by using CD's as reference material ?
Are you aware of quantisation error and digital dither routinely present in CD's ?
Can you get to Leatherhead?
Yep, I live near Guildford. We could go for a ride afterwards if you like.
Leatherheads near me - we could have a cable-rolling party!
Sadly; I'm at the other end of the country; however I'm entirely happy to supply a set of pre-rolled cat 5 speaker cables to be used in the test if it's actually going to happen.
I'd suggest NOT using a naim amp; for no other reason than it claims to be specifically designed to run with a certain length and type of speaker cable.
I'd suggest NOT using a naim amp; for no other reason than it claims to be specifically designed to run with a certain length and type of speaker cable.
But the argument is, that all cable sounds the same...
It is Naim that suggest being careful with speaker cables, cat 5 cable may not be a good idea as it has a high capacitance, does it not?
But the argument is, that all cable sounds the same...
It is; however NAIM claim that the speaker cable characteristics are an integral part of the amp and specify minimum lengths etc..
It's not so much the sound being different that would worry me; but (as an example) my cat 5 cables have a higher capacitance than most. In the unlikely event that your expensive naim became unstable and oscillated (It does not have a zobel netowrk to prevent this) it could easily melt istelf and you will be left with an expensive block of metal with no warranty to boot.
I'd suggest using an amp that doesn't specifically warn you not to do this; that is all !
I think the reason that Naim suggest specific cables is because they do not use Zobel network style filters on the outputs, you have to use something without a weird capacitance or inductance issues. My £1.80 PA cable fits the bill perfectly and I would be happy to do the test.
Soldered banana plugs?
crimped, surely...
Don't want to read through pages of posts. Speakers cables make a huge difference.
Naim amp work best with Naim cables. NACA5 and in the grand scheme not expensive.
Is there a pattern that it is all the Naim owners saying cables make a huge difference?
I only say that they can make some difference...
But the argument is, that all cable sounds the same...
My argument would be that in the short runs used for hi-fi the capacitance, inductance and resistance of even cheap small gauge cables is sufficiently small to have no audible effect. With longer runs these electrical parameters will affect the t/s parameters of the loudspeaker drivers and the transfer functions of the passive crossover - but that requires seriously long runs.
All this stuff is measurable. I remember being perplexed years ago when I first used SoundForge, that a piece of music could be represented by a simple wiggly line. But once you realise that that is indeed the case, and our ears hear vibrations in a similar way to a microphone, then you realise that you can run all manner of interesting tests to find out how a piece of equipment changes that that waveform.
And I don't think long runs are required for certain speaker and SS amp combinations - I only was using 3 metres or so.
Torminalis - Member
I think the reason that Naim suggest specific cables is because they do not use Zobel network style filters on the outputs, you have to use something without a weird capacitance or inductance issues. My £1.80 PA cable fits the bill perfectly and I would be happy to do the test.Soldered banana plugs?
Sent you an email. Soldered bananas, yes.
... and 3.5M long each.
freshly screwed in connections would be better - nice and gas tight - no solder to get in the way of the connection.
and 3.5M long each
I am currently using a pair of 8m long cables, I could easily cut one in half now though. I think that it would be equally interesting to leave the cable as it is and perform a test before and after the cut as again, I should there would be an negligible and inaudible difference.
Game on!
TurnerGuy - Member
freshly screwed in connections would be better - nice and gas tight - no solder to get in the way of the connection.
Not in this case - mine are soldered, we want a level playing field...
A "negligible" difference is, ahem - a difference...
Which of course, would not be inaudible.
I only say that they can make some difference...
Yeah but like all things special to a person, little things to one person, especially if they are not interested are HUGE things to soemone who is passionate.
Same with bikes.
Yes Naim owners tend to like Naim cables, an observer would say Naim had us over a barrel, when in fact comparing to the cost of some highend cable it is truly cheap. Naim could quite easily charge 5x as much and all Naim owners would buy it, but they don't. But infact the cable works really well with all Naim Amps from the nait 5 to the 552.