Ukraine

I have a feeling he’s not going to be much impressed with moaning about the price of fish and chips either.

I want this war to end so that Ukrainian children are not being killed anymore, so that aircraft bombs (!!!) are no longer dropped on peaceful cities. You, in Russia, want the war to end so that you can devour a Big Mac and buy an Ikea dresser. /21

— Dmytro Gurin, Ukrainian MP (@DmytroGurinMP) April 3, 2022

I have a feeling he’s not going to be much impressed with moaning about the price of fish and chips either.

We all know the fish and chips thing was a daft thing to post, but it’s time to move on maybe?

I think there is a case for never letting him forget that statement.

If you can “own with bombers” or discuss a sausage/lawn interface then dragging that coffin out might put the poster back in their kennel slightly when they start to veer too far beyond the pale. It sets the tone of their mindset

If badger can be subjected to tubeless japery indefinitely then I think it’s fair this can run on

As it’s the 40th anniversary of the Falklands I’m listening to Max Hastings’ “Battle for the Falklands” as an audio-book. The appendices look at the political failures that lead to war, and include (but not limited to) A complete failure by the UK govt to properly negotiate a settlement regarding the Falkland Islands with Argentina from the 1960s onwards, a lack of understanding regarding Argentine claims to them, and a lack of proper conversation with the people in the Falklands regarding either their future,or their self determination. A total failure of intelligence on both sides immediately prior, during and after the conflict. From the Argentinians; a complete failure to understand the needs or rights of the inhabitants, a complete misunderstanding of the reaction of the UK govt. From the US, a totally dysfunctional relationship between the State dept of the President’s office in the white house, a lack of proper policy, and no clear understanding of what they wanted or were trying to achieve. In the words of one US state official; “we upset everyone from the belligerents, ourselves and the UN, we pleased no one, helped no one, and settled nothing.” and like most of these sorts of limited wars, the end state is more or less identical to the status quo anti-bellum, and hasn’t been and isn’t being resolved.

I can’t help think that since the utter failure of these three otherwise functioning (mostly) democratic states was this very limited war, that still managed to cost billions and killed certainly hundreds of servicemen, that no lessons have been learned and nothing has changed, and the outcome of this conflict isn’t going to change anything or alter anyone’s state of mind in either Russia or Ukraine about the status of Ukraine.

What a waste

Not sure Badger is worth mentioning, it would probably Backfire and I just can’t Bear it anymore.

With Russia’s denial of the genocidal findings outside Kiev can they get some neutral observer’s involved, maybe Hungarians and the Chinese.

three otherwise functioning (mostly) democratic states

The Galtieri regime in Argentina was a military dictatorship. There may be parallels between his approach then and that of Putin now, but a different overall approach to governing.

but a different overall approach to governing.

Yes, hence my comment about them being “mostly”. The point I took from Hasting’s conversations with military leaders, governments, diplomats, UN officials and so on, from top to bottom, was that they managed to get into a shooting war which neither side wanted or expected over a dispute that could’ve been resolved in maybe 10 mins of properly honest discussion, and even despite that war, hasn’t yet been resolved to anybody’s satisfaction 40 years later.

they managed to get into a shooting war which neither side wanted or expected over a dispute that could’ve been resolved in maybe 10 mins of properly honest discussion, and even despite that war, hasn’t yet been resolved to anybody’s satisfaction 40 years later.

Both sides buried soldiers there. Their families will not accept any deal acceptable to the other side. For both sides it’s easiest to just wait until anyone with direct memory of it is dead. Pretty good chance that’s how the Ukraine this is going to end too – decades of resentment, but a hundred times more bitter.

"Denazification is a set of measures aimed at the nazified mass of the population, which technically cannot be subjected to direct punishment as war criminals"

— Francis Scarr (@francska1) April 4, 2022

"Unlike, let’s say, Georgia or the Baltics, Ukraine, as history has shown, is unviable as a national state, and attempts to 'build' one logically lead to Nazism"

— Francis Scarr (@francska1) April 4, 2022

Jeez, that op-ed is effectively an open admission for justifying war crimes and genocide. Truly horrific.

De-nazification by out-nazi-ing the incumbent “Nazis”? It’s an interesting play, I’m not sure it’ll come off.

Yes, hence my comment about them being “mostly”.

Well I suppose 2 out of three could be called “mostly” democracies:/

but gave you the benefit of being anonymous so you didn’t look such a clot.

The people I was talking about are the extended family of a close work colleague. Some of them are now in the UK (thank god!) after fleeing Kyiv. They’ve left everything behind apart from what they could carry. Some of them had to stay behind because men under 60 aren’t allowed to leave. Families have been split, and an entire lifetime’s worth of posessions etc left behind. So yeah, I’m quite comfortable passing on their views here even if they don’t fit the STW good vs evil narrative. Everything I’ve said about this war is based on the things I hear from them via my mate at work, and I’ve far more reason to listen to them than a few cosseted STW forumites talking nonsense from the safety of their armchairs.

BTW, WTF is the fish and chips thing??

lots of white fish is imported from Russia – it ends up in fish & chips, hence price rises

It was a silly thing to moan about

BTW, WTF is the fish and chips thing??

Chewkw used the clumsy example of the rocketing price of fish and chips to illustrate the effects of sanctions etc. on the West.  I disagree with a lot of what he posts and that particular one did appear crass in the context of Ukrainian suffering and he was rounded on.  Personally I feel in that instance it was just a clumsy example with no malice intended.  I think sometimes people underestimate how difficult it can be to convey nuance in an argument when you’re not communicating in your native language.  He still comes out with some right old tripe though! As well as the occasional view from a far Eastern perspective which is useful and enlightening.

BTW, WTF is the fish and chips thing??

I’m quite happy with that, it’s really only like chucking a few quid in the pot to help a just cause. Oh and it’s “spite” not “spike”.

chewkw
Free Member

You might be fine but a lot of people might not have the spare few quids to spend. I foresee Fish & Chips (my favourite) will cost £15 or even £20 in some places. All due to shortages couple with other increases etc. Not good.

BTW, WTF is the fish and chips thing??

Without wading back through the thread IIRC chewkw mentioned that the price of fish and chips would go up because of the war – clearly, to me, making a point about the impact UK food supplies, but people seem to have understood this as a personal whine because the mob likes to hate chewkw.

It was a silly thing to moan about

I must have missed it. It raises an interesting question though. How much are people here (as in the UK, not STW) willing to suffer to support the Ukrainians and send a message to Putin? Given that military action is not possible it seems to me that nothing less than total economic isolation is required. That’s going to cause a lot more problems than expensive fish and chips. If the UK govt and the public really are supportive of Ukraine then it’s time we put our money where our mouths are.

How is the alleged ‘artifical’ creation of a Ukranian identity any different to the creation of Russian identity out of most of central and northern Asia consisting of a huge variety of peoples?

Maybe future trade agreement can hold the clause on no trading with genocide regimes.

………and the cost of not doing everything we can is?

people seem to have understood this as a personal whine because the mob likes to hate chewkw.

He was arguing against sanctions on Russia. The price of fish and chips was presented as evidence that they would hurt us as much as Russia.

I must have missed it. It raises an interesting question though. How much are people here (as in the UK, not STW) willing to suffer to support the Ukrainians and send a message to Putin? Given that military action is not possible it seems to me that nothing less than total economic isolation is required. That’s going to cause a lot more problems than expensive fish and chips. If the UK govt and the public really are supportive of Ukraine then it’s time we put our money where our mouths are.

I agree, and personally we would be happy to tighten our belts and take a lot more economic pain if it would genuinely help Ukraine.  The point has been made however that whilst the STW demographic might be able to weather this, there are plenty in the country already on their knees due to fuel cost, inflation, government incompetence etc.  It’s easy to take a moral stand when you aren’t worrying about feeding your kids.

I’m not saying we shouldn’t have tougher sanctions, just that we should consider that they will be a lot harder on some of us than others and we are (mostly) pretty privileged on here.

How is the alleged ‘artifical’ creation of a Ukranian identity any different to the creation of Russian identity out of most of central and northern Asia consisting of a huge variety of peoples?

True.  All borders are disputed if you go back far enough.  And in most of Europe, that isn’t very far at all.

Putin’s mate, Orban re-elected I see.

On his election he said…“This victory is one to remember, maybe even for the rest of our lives, because we had the biggest [range of opponents to] overpower. The left at home, the international left, the bureaucrats in Brussels, the money of the Soros empire, the international media and even the Ukrainian president in the end,”

Just say “Jews” Victor, we’re all bored already, and we all know who you’re referring to here…

How is the alleged ‘artifical’ creation of a Ukranian identity any different to the creation of Russian identity out of most of central and northern Asia consisting of a huge variety of peoples?

They’re not Russian. Russia is the highest form of culture on Earth. Those who oppose the highest form of culture on Earth are Nazis who conspire to destroy Russia. Killing Nazis is what any reasonable person would do. Something along those lines, maybe a bit of Slavic people as a Master-race who need living space to expand into.

I agree, and personally we would be happy to tighten our belts and take a lot more economic pain if it would genuinely help Ukraine. The point has been made however that whilst the STW demographic might be able to weather this, there are plenty in the country already on their knees due to fuel cost, inflation, government incompetence etc. It’s easy to take a moral stand when you aren’t worrying about feeding your kids.

I’m not saying we shouldn’t have tougher sanctions, just that we should consider that they will be a lot harder on some of us than others and we are (mostly) pretty privileged on here.

Yep, agree here.

He was arguing against sanctions on Russia. The price of fish and chips was presented as evidence that they would hurt us as much as Russia.

Your contributions to this thread have generally been some of the most useful and productive IMO. But I think you’re unfairly misrepresenting him here.

Anyway, this is getting fairly well OT, sorry.

Given that military action is not possible

In’t that what the Ukrainians are (pretty successfully) doing right now?

there are plenty in the country already on their knees due to fuel cost, inflation, government incompetence etc.

If the UK govt is serious about it’s support for Ukraine and it’s opposition to Russia then they have the ability to mitigate the worst impacts of cutting economic ties with Russia. Even with that support, at the very least it will mean driving less, rationing of gas, a potential 3 or 4 day week (and the reduction in incomes that will cause), skyrocketing inflation, and a recession the likes of which we’ve never seen outside the pandemic. Something tells me our support doesn’t go that far though.

In’t that what the Ukrainians are (pretty successfully) doing right now?

You think the UK and by extension NATO can fight a war with Russia and it not escalate into the use of nuclear weapons?

Something along those lines, maybe a bit of Slavic people as a Master-race who need living space to expand into.

Ironically they already have way more of this than just about any country on Earth.

I’m musing about stuff we can do.  I’m probably talking out of my arse, but why can’t we close the Russian Embassy?  Expel the ambassador, diplomats, SVR spies, cleaners the lot.  They are only apologists for mass murder and rape, what useful function are they performing right now?  They can open again when their troops leave Ukraine and those responsible for atrocities are in the Hague on trial.

Boot them out of the UN Security council too.

I know this would be unprecedented and go against international diplomacy rules blah, blah but this is a unique situation.  Can you imagine the impact if every Western country closed the Russian embassies and consulates?

I’m probably talking out of my arse, but why can’t we close the Russian Embassy?

Because international diplomacy is the main thing that can prevent war. We may not like them, and may not want to do business with them, but it’s in our mutual interests to avoid going to war with them. However much we don’t like it, we need to be talking to them more, not less.

You think the UK and by extension NATO can fight a war with Russia and it not escalate into the use of nuclear weapons?

No, but also, why would we need to? As i said, the Ukrainians are currently doing that more than successfully. I think European dependency on Russian gas and the complete defeat of the Russian military actually makes the case for a quicker resolution. The worst thing the EU or US ca do now is to slow up the Ukrainian advance

Because international diplomacy is the main thing that can prevent war.

Only if the country you’re talking to are honest brokers. The Russians – leading up to this war clearly weren’t. Anyway, bit late for that assessment anyway.

If the UK govt is serious about it’s support for Ukraine and it’s opposition to Russia then they have the ability to mitigate the worst impacts of cutting economic ties with Russia. Even with that support, at the very least it will mean driving less, rationing of gas, a potential 3 or 4 day week (and the reduction in incomes that will cause), skyrocketing inflation, and a recession the likes of which we’ve never seen outside the pandemic. Something tells me our support doesn’t go that far though.

Again, yes I would support that to stop this (and future) Russian aggression.  But I’m retired and comfortably off.  You are right though, there simply isn’t the appetite for that kind of pain to support Ukraine.

“The left at home, the international left, the bureaucrats in Brussels, the money of the Soros empire, the international media”

Chilling how close Orban’s bogeymen line up with the rhetoric of the American right.

Every MAGA Trumpet mentions Soros and the media.

Anyway, bit late for that assessment anyway.

We’re not at war with Russia. We need diplomacy to keep it that way.

The people I was talking about are the extended family of a close work colleague. Everything I’ve said about this war is based on the things I hear from them via my mate at work,

so what dazh says is based on what his colleague says his extentended family say are their views of the russian invasion of their country. Fair enough but I most people will heed more what I dunno, Lyse Doucet or rafts of in situ news folks convey in terms of reports and analysis.

I’m quite comfortable passing on their views here even if they don’t fit the STW good vs evil narrative.

I regret that civilian mass graves do fit a good versus evil narrative.

While I rarely agree with him, I don’t think we can have a go at dazh for reporting the views of people he knows who have direct contacts with the Ukraine. It’s a valid opinion.

It’s an opinion that seems naive to me, given what is now coming out of the Ukraine, and I wonder if those opinions have changed in light of the atrocities being reported, and the kind of comments in that state broadcaster’s article above seeming to justify genocide and ethnic cleansing as Russian state policy.