Ukraine

Fundamentally, what’s different from the invasion of Iraq or Afghanistan, compared to the invasion of Ukraine?

Iraq and Afghanistan actually were run by brutal oppressive regimes. I’m not saying that justified the invasion, that’s another debate entirely, but that’s the difference.

The invasions arguably had a worse effect though, plus I’d dispute those were the real reasons for the invasions either.. Ukraine isn’t a shining light in all that’s right in the world either, there’s reasons why the EU and NATO are very stand-offish in terms of membership.

^^ In fairness Caher is right. Crap as some/all of the recent wars were, this is the one happening now and I’m hoping it finally dissuades any and all powers from these explorative little “adventures” on foreign soil.

I know, hopelessly naive.

And I find the whole Putin is the evilest man alive stuff a bit overly contrived tbh.

You got any nominations for anyone currently worse – beyond invading a sovereign nation, war crimes and now allegations of ethnic cleansing?

MoreCashThanDash
Full Member
You got any nominations for anyone currently worse – beyond invading a sovereign nation, war crimes and now allegations of ethnic cleansing?

I’ve no interest in measuring them, I’m struggling to see much difference in recent history though. I just don’t really see the point in building Putin up to be something more than he is.

slowoldman

It is not for the West/NATO to interpret but for Russia/Putin. They don’t like other systems of governance. The “Russia falling” is referring to system of governance i.e. democracy.

Well call me an idealist if you like but I think every person has the right to vote in free and fair elections.

I don’t want to call anyone idealist/utopian etc (coz sometimes it is healthy to imagine things) but when they finally meet in the realm of realism the result of the clash can be catastrophic in the context of powerful nation states.
Liberalism (democracy) is good thing in western domain but theirs is not the only system in the world.

I just don’t really see the point in building Putin up to be something more than he is.

It’s that attitude that allowed him to invade Ukraine in the first place.

He’s a piece of work and it definitely needs calling out.

Navalny, Kordokovsky, Litvenenko, Skripal, Magnitsky, Checnya, Crimea, Georgia, Allepo.

He was a tyrant and a war criminal well before invading Ukraine and the atrocities we’re seeing in Mariupol.

That deserves calling out and building him up to be the **** that he is.

That deserves calling out and building him up to be the **** that he is.

But he has nukes as deterrent.

andrewreay
Full Member
I just don’t really see the point in building Putin up to be something more than he is.

It’s that attitude that allowed him to invade Ukraine in the first place.

Here a piece of work and it definitely needs calling out.

Navalny, Kordokovsky, Litvenenko, Skripal, Magnitsky, Checnya, Crimea, Georgia, Allepo.

He was a tyrant and a war criminal well before invading Ukraine and the atrocities we’re seeing in Mariupol.

That deserves calling out and building him up to be the **** that he is.

He a c…, no doubt but he can go up quite a few levels of madness yet… I’m not into self fulfilling prophecies myself, I’d rather we left roads back from the brink.

We’re as well nuking Russia the now the way some go on.

Those who are unable to see a difference are intentionally blinding themselves. I marched against the war in Iraq because it was based on nonsense principles and was really a follow-up to the emotional reaction to 9/11. I called it out then and the horrors that occurred in Iraq are unspeakable. The current situation is fundamentally different in scope however. We have a tyrant in charge of several thousand nukes gradually extending his reach geographically with the aim to resurrect some form of hallucinatory motherland. Europe’s future is at stake as is the future of democracy. Democracy is flawed but I’m going to pick it every single time over a Europe under the thumb of a Putin.

speedstar
Full Member
Europe’s future is at stake as is the future of democracy.

Utter bollocks mate.

Liberalism (democracy) is good thing in western domain but theirs is not the only system in the world.

What makes it undesirable elsewhere?

What makes it undesirable elsewhere?

Their belief/belief system(s).

Utter bollocks mate.

There’s none so blind as those who refuse to see.

In what ways are Ukrainian belief systems different to ours?

MoreCashThanDash
Full Member
Utter bollocks mate.

There’s none so blind as those who refuse to see.

Ok he’s Hitler, I agree, what time we sending up the nukes? Or shall we try conventional warfare first, I’ll meet you at the front line?

We can’t send nukes as he’ll send them back but we’re glad you’re finally seeing the error of your ways.

In what ways are Ukrainian belief systems different to ours?

They are part of the former Soviet bloc.
They have multiple “beliefs” systems with the eastern part of the nation completely Russian (belief in Russian dominance etc), while the western part more pro-western, then you have the in between. This is also consistent with their voting pattern. Essentially, you could also consider this a “civil war”, hence Russia considers this as special operation.

We can’t send nukes as he’ll send them back but we’re glad you’re finally seeing the error of your ways.

Therefore, how do you intend to solve the problem?

…the eastern part of the nation completely Russian (belief in Russian dominance etc),

Are you sure about that?

I’d be interested to hear what Dolly Parton’s got to say about all this.

Are you sure about that?

Yes, I am sure. (Especially south east)

Essentially, you could also consider this a “civil war”.

FFS how is it a civil war when one country invades another?

Like it or not, Ukraine is a sovereign state with borders, constitution, elected government and free speech.

What we are seeing is NOT a civil war.

chewkw
Free Member
Essentially, you could also consider this a “civil war”

Only if your name is Vladimir Putin. This is a straight up invasion fella.

I’d dispute those were the real reasons for the invasions either

Sure, I’m not justifying those invasions. Someone asked what the difference was. Similarly, Iraq and Afghanistan were poor countries and not white Europeans. That made a difference, I’m sure. Not in an ‘it’s ok to kill them cos they’re not worth it’ sort of way, for most people, but more in a ‘poor ignorant savages need a white saviour’ sort of way. And also in a ‘maybe we can use this’ sort of way.

> removed as replying to a comment that’s been removed <

Jesus, I’ll not quote that molly if you want to delete it…

FFS how is it a civil war when one country invades another?

Like it or not, Ukraine is a sovereign state with borders, constitution, elected government and free speech.

What we are seeing is NOT a civil war.

Long story short, if you look back the pro-Russian East/South East do not want to join the West fearing themselves to be turned into 2nd class citizen, and started to rebel against the idea. You can debate about Russia having a hand but the same can be true with the West/NATO having a hand in the Ukraine. Then the poo hit the fans. That’s the Russian interpretation.

That will be why Mariupol is fighting to the last man then? There are undeniably ethnic Russians living in Ukraine and some of them definitely lean towards Russia. But there was a democratically elected government in place that is not what the wee monkey Putin wants as a risk to his hegemony so close to his borders so he’s trying to stamp it out. Therefore you choose democracy or autocracy. Also to state that Russians are universally content living under Putin’s rule belies any insight into either the public Vs private process in an autocracy nor the humanity to understand they would vote him out if they were able to. You have swallowed propoganda to the maximum possible extent and it is not insightful.

There are bits of Ukraine which obviously feel Russian, but that isn’t a belief system. That’s a sense of nationalism/ethnicity. Clearly, the majority of Ukrainians don’t feel Russian, hence the course of this war.
Also interestingly, so what if the majority of people in a certain area want to be part of Russia? Wouldn’t accepting their right for their views to count actually be democracy in action? You are in rather a quandary here chewie, why should their views matter if they apparently don’t believe in democracy?

You have swallowed propoganda to the maximum possible extent and it is not insightful.

I see propaganda from both sides which is normal in current situation but I don’t believe in either.

There are bits of Ukraine which obviously feel Russian, but that isn’t a belief system. That’s a sense of nationalism/ethnicity. Clearly, the majority of Ukrainians don’t feel Russian, hence the course of this war.

Whether they are nationalistic etc is for them to decide but in the current situation it is too late to debate about it. As they said the horse has bolted.
Now they have entered the domain of realism and that means buffer zone and “Monroe doctrine” in the context of powerful nation states.

Also interestingly, so what if the majority of people in a certain area want to be part of Russia? Wouldn’t accepting their right for their views to count actually be democracy in action?

You need to ask the people as I am merely interpreting what I see.

You are in rather a quandary here chewie, why should their views matter if they apparently don’t believe in democracy?

Some do some don’t but the bottom line is the buffer zone. They live next door to a powerful nation state with nukes then they better prepare not to rock the boat.

chewkw
Free Member

Long story short, if you look back the pro-Russian East/South East

I think you are probably over-reaching too much here, far too simplistic a reading and sectioning of certain sections of the country very arbitrarily there. I’m sure there is some Russia nationalists in Ukraine, are they nice grouped into certain areas? Doubt that very much tbh.

I read this earlier when i was looking into something about the pro-russian parties that Zensky had banned. (Was just trying to verify the pro-russian part, which I think is fair enough.) But this was an interesting read, specifically in relation to the last election and how Opposition Platform—For Life gained their seats.

Russian propaganda in the area didn’t just start in february. They’ve been skewing things for a while it seems. and simple election results don’t really tell the whole story.

https://www.wilsoncenter.org/publication/kennan-cable-no-45-six-reasons-the-opposition-platform-won-eastern-ukraine

Russia propaganda in the area didn’t just start in february. They’ve been skewing things for a while it seems. and simple election results don’t really tell the whole story.

They need their buffer zone is the bottom line. The rest are just side shows. i.e. Ukraine can have as much “democracy” as they like so long as they are under Russian control.

Info wars this evening is it?

When we say Kyiv is winning the information war, far too often we only mean information spaces we inhabit.

Pulling apart the most obvious RU info op to date (as we did using semantic modelling), very clear it is targeting BRICS, Africa, Asia. Not the West really at all. pic.twitter.com/GA5KUQo77S

— Carl Miller (@carljackmiller) March 18, 2022

chewkw – In the last elections in Ukraine Zelenkyy and his party got something like 75% of the vote. In the UK the “ruling party” consistently get about half that. Should those of us that don’t support the current elected party invite an invasion by France or Germany?

They need their buffer zone is the bottom line. The rest are just side shows. i.e. Ukraine can have as much “democracy” as they like so long as they are under Russian control.

How do they have democracy whilst being under Russian control?

Info wars this evening is it,?

Nahhh … I don’t even read them.

chewkw – In the last elections in Ukraine Zelenkyy and his party got something like 75% of the vote. In the UK the “ruling party” consistently get about half that. Should those of us that don’t support the current elected party invite an invasion by France or Germany?

Is that normal in democracy with a party getting 75%?

Also in their opinion polls on referendum regarding joining NATO, South and East consistently voted against. Only the West and Centre consistently vote for joining NATO. The country is split.

…..well. It’s democracy

slowoldman
Full Member
chewkw – In the last elections in Ukraine Zelenkyy and his party got something like 75% of the vote. In the UK the “ruling party” consistently get about half that. Should those of us that don’t support the current elected party invite an invasion by France or Germany?

75% in the presidential run-off, Zelensky got 30% in the first round(of 2), Servant of the People, Zelenskys parliamentary party took 43% of the vote(seems it’s a proportional system rather than FPTP). giving them 254 seats in a 450 seat parliament.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Ukrainian_parliamentary_election

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Ukrainian_presidential_election

The link I posted a couple above is an interesting read regarding the last election, in the East in particular and Russian influence pre war.

All largely irrelevant to the invasion, as interesting as that is, it’s all Putin.

Should those of us that don’t support the current elected party invite an invasion by France or Germany?

Thats a trick question right? Cos I know it’d be wrong, but it’s tempting…..

The Ukraine PM who remember is a drug pushing son of Satan Nazi spoke to the Israel Parliament via zoom.
Twist that one Putin fans (not there are any on here)
It’s not a civil war it’s an invasion with the beginnings ethnic cleansing going on.
One thing that is the wests fault is we ignored Putin and his early liberation campaigns sadly most of Europe has sucked up cheap gas and turned a blind eye. At least renewable energy sources are hopefully being now looked at.

They need their buffer zone is the bottom line. The rest are just side shows. i.e. Ukraine can have as much “democracy” as they like so long as they are under Russian control.

so, absolutely nothing do to with having a different belief system or having democracy forced upon them