Ukraine

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Probably should have added more context; when you have a liberal-ish democratically elected government with a functioning opposition.

When one bloke is running the show, unless they decide enough is enough, it’s very hard for other options to be explored or even heard. Add in the levels of fanaticism seen in recent years then you’re in for an even tougher time.

WW2 is oft cited in examples and counterpoint to modern wars that are equally (if not more so) fought in the media, so I avoid those comparisons; the physical act of killing may have changed a little but the dimension and depth of propaganda and the power of it has evolved exponentially. Those who have spent 100’s of hours fighting in the CV/Scot Indy Ref/Brexit threads should know this. Three things that have absolutely been steered by ‘facts’.

Can you provide some examples of when that has happened? Germany and Japan were bombed to rubble in WW2 yet kept fighting. Japan only surrendered after the Emperor declared that it was time to give up. Even after that, fanatics broke into the Imperial Palace and tried to destroy the recordings of the Emperor’s message to the nation before they could be broadcast. Stalingrad was reduced to rubble but didn’t surrender. Malta too.

Absolutely. Hence my ‘there are only losers’ comment. The human cost from this war will keep being paid for many years after this is all settled. Very doubtful that those who ordered it and enabled it will pay in the same way those at the sharp end will. As is the norm.

As an ex military man, I am positively Anti War. For me an ethical strong military is there to dissuade attack, not as a big stick.

As an ex military man, I am positively Anti War. For me an ethical strong military is there to dissuade attack, not as a big stick.

100% agree.

I think the governments latest attempt to deter refugees from coming here is monstrous

Michael Gove 'exploring' whether he can house Ukrainian refugee per… (The Independent)

Cabinet minister Michael Gove is interested in housing a refugee from Ukraine, as he reveale…

Add your highlights:https://t.co/nYngxTYLKs
#UK #news

— UK News Briefly (@UK_News_b) March 13, 2022

‘A’ refugee? Just one?

I’m sure he could do better than that.

The cynic in me thinks the reason UK is happy to give loads of munitions is because they’re close to the end of life and need disposing of.

That’s a quick and easy win to brag about, but the slightly more complex problem is people. Bunch of arses.

I think the government’s latest attempt to deter refugees from coming here is monstrous

ctk

also waiting for the rank hypocrisy of people saying China is in the wrong for selling weapons to Russia when we sell them to Saudi etc.

It’s not mutually exclusive to be against both of those scenarios and I suspect most in this thread are.

The cynic in me thinks the reason UK is happy to give loads of munitions is because they’re close to the end of life and need disposing of.

The OSINT people on twitter have indeed noted that some donated weapons are near the end of their shelf life. But it’s surely more sensible to donate those, which will get used, than to spend money decommissioning them and then send brand new ones?

@binners I had to think about that!

A deterrent indeed.

also waiting for the rank hypocrisy of people saying China is in the wrong for selling weapons to Russia when we sell them to Saudi etc.

Apropos of nothing, I am suddenly reminded of this Viz classic:

Of course, (although I’ll keep my ire at the inability to get equipment to train in check), but still when that’s all we have to offer and not really deal with the humanitarian crisis that once again we’ve helped facilitate, it grips my shit.

We can add this to the long list of human tragedies we’ve aided in creating through action and inaction.

The OSINT people on twitter have indeed noted that some donated weapons are near the end of their shelf life. But it’s surely more sensible to donate those, which will get used, than to spend money decommissioning them and then send brand new ones?

Very doubtful that those who ordered it and enabled it will pay in the same way those at the sharp end will.

Only one person ordered it. Vladamir Putin. Making him pay would require arresting him and convicting him of war crimes. That’s very unlikely to happen. Even if he’s deposed, Russia will not hand him over for trial. For Putin to pay the price, NATO would have to intervene, conquer Russia, and capture him alive. That would cost many thousands of lives even if Russia didn’t use nuclear weapons. But, if NATO tried to send troops into Russia, of course Russia would use nuclear weapons.

So, of course Putin won’t pay the price because nobody wants to start a nuclear war.

My comment was directed at armed conflict in general. Not just this one.

Certainly in modern times.

So, of course Putin won’t pay the price because nobody wants to start a nuclear war.

Good on them.

Ukraine: Squatters occupy Russian oligarch’s London mansion

also waiting for the rank hypocrisy of people saying China is in the wrong for selling weapons to Russia when we sell them to Saudi etc.

I have no problem with condemning our (the UK) deplorable trade in weaponry and calling it both wrong for the Chinese to sell weapons as it is for the UK or US to do so as well.

BBC reports that China now involved in supplying weapons to Russia

Unless the user manuals are a lot better than those I generally get on stuff made in China, they won’t be much help to the Russians.

My comment was directed at armed conflict in general.

…war, uh, what indeed is it good for?

If you were in Estonia or Poland would you be surrendering now preemptively to reduce suffering/get one over on those who’d benefit from oncoming conflict?

(Brought back a memory of O level russian: я сдаюсь being a bit of early vocab.)

The cynic in me thinks the reason UK is happy to give loads of munitions is because they’re close to the end of life and need disposing of.

Actually, supplying weapons with a limited shelf life will mean that they won’t be hitting the black market if the current war finishes quickly. Ukraine is awash in weapons now. One the war is over, there will be desperate people looking to sell anything they can to survive. Also, it makes much more sense to use the oldest ones in stock first.

also waiting for the rank hypocrisy of people saying China is in the wrong for selling weapons to Russia when we sell them to Saudi etc.

Yes, it’s only hypocrisy if you endorse UK sales whilst condemning China. It’s perfectly possible to condemn UK arms sales even though you live here. I live here, don’t have much choice these days, but I don’t endorse all our government’s decisions.

Good on them.

I’m not sure that some randoms taking over someone else’s property as an act of “liberation” is solving anything. Whilst I’m not losing any sleep over Oligarchs property being frozen or seized by he state, presumably with appropriate Judicial oversight, and ultimately potentially even sold (especially if the proceeds benefit Ukrainians) I don’t know that I’m that comfortable with people breaking in, probably trashing the place (so devaluing its proceeds) and tieing up police resources etc, is actually a great public service.

also waiting for the rank hypocrisy of people saying China is in the wrong for selling weapons to Russia when we sell them to Saudi etc.

I predict a loooong wait

we sell them to Saudi

I bloody don’t sell arms to Saudi.

That’s the issue – all nations have a right to buy arms for their own defence,and presumably a right for other nations to sell them.

Continuing to supply weapons that are being used for “illegal” offensive purposes is the moral issue that needs addressing, imo.

I’m increasingly thinking China is key – they either back Putin and keep the war going or work to deescalate it and talk him down, and that will depend on their own long-term ambitions. Please God don’t let the west turn a blind eye to Chinese territorial advances as the price of ending the Ukraine conflict though, that’s kicking the can into the heavily mined long grass.

DrJ

Unless the user manuals are a lot better than those I generally get on stuff made in China, they won’t be much help to the Russians.

As unfunny as this whole bloody thing is, this comment really brightened my day. Just imagine.

– Un-remove the thunderstick of outRagEOus redEMPti0ning from the packeting.
– Insert thunderstick of outRagEOus redEMPti0ning into the up-side whole backwards under the oncoming stream of firing buttons. DO NOT PrESS the Clicking Doom switch.
– Immediately PrESS the Doom Clicking Swithc. Not that one.
– Placing of assembly onto firm immovable surface.
– Clicking press on buttons 0 thru K, but not pressing & long hold in buttons B, D or 5.
– Look throo eyepeace (not directly into Sun) and when reddy press and hole the Clicking Doom switch. Do not hold for more than 2s, but make sure that the holding is between 4-6s continuallyous.
– thunderstick of outRagEOus redEMPti0ning will fire from backwards side air-vent-fin in clockwise direction, unless in South hemisphere. In this case follow steps 4-18 again repeat, but failing to press-slide-rotate actuator B.

We hopinh you satidfied with product. Please contact us in first instance to resolve your issue before contacting the Amazon to leaving bad feedback.

@stumpy01 😂 Thank you! I think a brief chuckle on this relentlessly grim thread is allowed.

Also – there have been some tense and fractious exchanges on here over the last few days including a bit of a pile on to dazh.  I may have played a part in that. Apologies.  Everyone’s opinion is equally valid.

Applause for Stumpy01.

Also, it makes much more sense to use the oldest ones in stock first.

This, same for anything that is perishable. I imagine it’s how the system is set up to work.

@stumpy01 🙂 🙂 🙂

French and US press reporting Ukrainian attacks on Ukrainian civilians.

An interesting read from the Huffpost about the possibility of Russian defeat, the West’s strategy and the weakening of populists globally:

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/francis-fukuyama-russia-ukraine_n_622eb131e4b0317d0a329c20

The source publication, American Prupose, is described as moderately liberal leaning on Media Bias with highly factual reporting.

French and US press reporting Ukrainian attacks on Ukrainian civilians

Links? more info?

Indeed it is, just a little irksome when you meet so many barriers to try and get kit to train with.

I imagine it’s how the system is set up to work.

molgrips
Full Member
we sell them to Saudi

I bloody don’t sell arms to Saudi.

You do but I don’t so ner. Truth is we (nearly) all vote Labour or Tories who are both in favour of it.

81 beheadings on Saturday ffs

French and US press reporting Ukrainian attacks on Ukrainian civilians

Credible link? Background? One liners like this are useless. Can’t see anything in Le Monde, Liberation, Washington Post.

You do but I don’t so ner. Truth is we (nearly) all vote Labour or Tories who are both in favour of it.

President Biden suspended arms sales that could be used in Yemen.

The UK has not – we sold £1.4 billion of arms to Saudi Arabia in 3 months last year, including bombs & missiles that could be used in Yemen.@BorisJohnson at #PMQs demonstrating his failure of moral leadership.

— David Lammy (@DavidLammy) March 3, 2021

81 beheadings on Saturday ffs

You’ll only get hard agreement that this is atrocious. Can we keep this thread on Ukraine though, please?

DrJ

Unless the user manuals are a lot better than those I generally get on stuff made in China, they won’t be much help to the Russians.

Just license Garmin to provide all manuals, software and firmware updates. It’ll all be over within days.

Everyone’s opinion is equally valid.

No, they are not. People who deny the holocaust do not have a valid viewpoint. People who say that Ukraine is run by Nazis who are bent on joining up with NATO to destroy Russia do not have a valid viewpoint. The list of viewpoints that are not valid is very long, those are just a couple of examples to illustrate the problem of relativism.

OK, perhaps I should rephrase that.  Everyone is entitled to an opinion, even if we disagree.  And, as far as possible we should try to remain civil with each other on here.

Shooterman,

That Francis Fukuyama piece was interesting. He is the person who came up with “The End of History” theory after the collapse of communism, which was basically the idea that Western capitalist democracy won and the future looks bright. Many would argue that the West bought into that philosophy hook, line and sinker.

The last paragraph from that article:

“A Russian defeat will make possible a “new birth of freedom,” and get us out of our funk about the declining state of global democracy. The spirit of 1989 will live on, thanks to a bunch of brave Ukrainians.”

That does read rather like “The End of History 2.0”, as if he’s trying to suggest he was right back in the early 90’s, it’s just that his original end of history had a bit more entropy that he first thought? It also reads a lot like a ‘Hot Gates at Thermopylae’ narrative. And then of course theres China….

Not saying it wouldn’t be nice if he was right this time around though!