Ukraine

dazh
That’s not what I said and the implication is offensive. You can either retract it or I can report it and let the mods decide.

Ok, as you are bringing up implications and what you said or didn’t say what do these things you said imply:

dazh
They definitely don’t want to sacrifice their lives to defend the Ukrainian government.

dazh
How do those going on about ‘living as free Ukrainians’ square that with blanket conscription?

And incredibly, after saying how offended you are and I’m talking nonsense about you blaming the Ukrainian government you post this.

dazh
On a point of order though there’s a huge difference between the Ukrainian govt and the people who are being slaughtered in their name.

You directly imply in all those quotes and say on the last one that this current devastation of lives is due to the Ukrainian government. Not once mentioning the invading Russian army or the hand guiding it.

Utterly incredible alternate reality. I’m sorry the truth offends you.

Sure, but there is good reason to think this war is about Nato expansionism, not Russian expansionism.

I hope you are getting some of the grift that Farage and co get for this tripe. I’d hate to think you were doing it for free

It’s this possibility that is the Russians’ problem.

NATO isn’t Russia’s problem, it’s Putin’s problem, and it’s certainly not the fault of the people of Ukraine that Putin sees himself the victim. He’s chosen to invade Ukraine, assigning imaginary danger to group that pose him and Russia zero danger. His self -ascribed victim-hood is what allows him to empower his forces to commit war crimes. Assigning imaginary power to defenceless people outmatched in every way exposes his desperate need to feel wronged by the West.

Putin feels he is the victim of History, not the people he’s now attacking. It’s what allows him simultaneously  to pretend to be a victim of NATO expansion while at the same time bombing the shit out defenceless people in a country that pose no risk to him or his mafia cronies.

People like Putin won’t stop, they can only be stopped,.

The baddies are the ones who invaded a country at the behest of a fascist dictator, and are killing civilians. The goodies are the ones trying to defend themselves.

You think the terms ‘baddies’ and ‘goodies’ are helpful in this situation? You’re boiling an extremely complex situation down to schoolyard politics.

To be clear though, the baddies are the state actors on all sides who have used the Ukrainian people as pawns in their geo-political and financial interests. The goodies are those who are now dying and suffering through no fault of their own. War benefits no one other than those sending the orders and supplying the weapons.

dazh

You think the terms ‘baddies’ and ‘goodies’ are helpful in this situation? You’re boiling an extremely complex situation down to schoolyard politics.

Deflection. I think most of the world would characterise Putin and his actions as being the polar opposite of being the “good guys” and holding the moral high ground.

To be clear though, the baddies are the state actors on all sides

Again, totally ignoring the fact that Putin’s military has invaded another country. Incredible stuff. Really.

You are an outlier on a monumental scale.

Complex situation but if you can’t tell good from bad, you’re in a different reality.

To be clear though, the baddies are the state actors on all sides who have used the Ukrainian people as pawns in their geo-political and financial interests. The goodies are those who are now dying and suffering through no fault of their own.

Well, you are certainly ideologically consistent. But you aren’t going to convince anyone who doesn’t believe in your ideology.

French activist Pierre Afner broke into the villa of Vladimir Putin's daughter Catherine Tikhonova in Biarritz, changed the locks in the house and invited refugees from Ukraine https://t.co/NonXMBdQtv#StandWithUkraine #StopWarInUkraine #StopPutin

— UA Opir ?? (@UaOpir) March 13, 2022

hope this is true

@dazh You seem to be wanting to paint the Ukrainian government as baddies without actually saying that. Or do I misunderstand you?

You directly imply in all those quotes that this current devastation of lives is due to the Ukrainian government.

No I’m saying it’s the result of all governments who have involved themselves in Ukrainian politics. Do you agree with blanket conscription? If Ukrainians are free should they not be able to decide whether to fight or not?

Just thinking aloud here…

I just can’t get my head around someone with very left of centre leanings, which I share, ending up siding with a brutal authoritarian dictator like Putin.

I just can’t get my head around it? I’ve tried but I can’t square it.

Or do I misunderstand you?

Yes.

ending up siding with a brutal authoritarian dictator like Putin.

No you’ve just imagined this. I’ve never defended putin and never will. I despise him FWIW, but that doesn’t automatically mean I think those opposed to him are blameless either.

No I’m saying it’s the result of all governments who have involved themselves in Ukrainian politics. Do you agree with blanket conscription? If Ukrainians are free should they not be able to decide whether to fight or not?

I think its clear what you’ve been saying through this whole thread I’m afraid.

War is ****, conscription is **** but Ukraine has been forced into a situation of Putin’s making and however much you want to blame Ukraine and its government it just doesn’t stand up to what we are all witnessing on TV and online.

Keep defending the indefensible though as you have all through this thread.

No I’m saying it’s the result of all governments who have involved themselves in Ukrainian politics

So does that excuse Russia invading Ukraine?

It seems to me that dazh is feeling a little uncomfortable with the lionising of Ukraine and the apparent tendency of people to create a simplistic goodies vs baddies Hollywood Cold War type story.

I can appreciate that viewpoint but it’s rather hard to discuss it without being jumped on at this point because emotions are justifiably high (including mine) and that precludes nuance generally.

So perhaps now isn’t the time? It might come across as insensitive and a bit ‘yeah but…’

Keep defending the indefensible though as you have all through this thread.

He really isn’t doing that. You’re extrapolating incorrectly.

Someone who calls for a revolution of the people, but not for a resistance of the people.

If this was the USA and/or the UK invading a sovereign country, Dazh would be with the rest of us calling out the politicians who had called the invasion, rather than this two sides stuff. Yes, there are many countries who have been involved with Ukraine, only one is at this moment attacking it and killing its people. Russia has no reason to be flattening the cities of Ukraine right now. It was no threat to them. No NATO country was going to attack Russia on the behalf of the Ukraine. Hell, no NATO country is prepared to defend Ukraine as it falls piece by piece to Russian military aggression.

Conscription in time of war is like Lockdown in a pandemic: a necessary evil if your society is going to survive.

Pretty amazing to see ukranians in occupied cities willing to protest

Kherson today, 12:30 EET

Several thousand Kherson residents went to the peaceful rally in a temporarily occupied city on March 13.–Suspilne Kherson https://t.co/asRsgnq4Cd pic.twitter.com/ZAHwAESPLx

— Euromaidan Press (@EuromaidanPress) March 13, 2022

Conscription in time of war is like Lockdown in a pandemic

Sorry but that’s a ridiculous analogy. In lockdown all we had to do was stay at home. In war we’d have to kill other people and perhaps sacrifice ourselves. The two don’t compare.

poopscoop
Keep defending the indefensible though as you have all through this thread.

molgrips
He really isn’t doing that. You’re extrapolating incorrectly.

molgrips, I do agree with what you said in that post and emotions are understandably taut but I can’t agree with the quote above.

dazh has constantly been defecting any blame for the invasion away from Russia, time and time again. Its always been NATO, the US and a fairly new ingredient in his deflections away from the above… Its now Ukrain’s government to blame for the horrors we are witnessing.

He’s directly said so, I quoted him.

dazh
On a point of order though there’s a huge difference between the Ukrainian govt and the people who are being slaughtered in their name.

No extrapolating here, no emotional bias. That’s what he said. It’s indefensible.

This is the democratically elected government of Ukraine? Elected by a majority of the population on a pro-West, anti-Russian ticket?

I’m not seeing how this is the Ukranians fault other than in a parallel universe

We had conscription in this country until relatively recently. Does that mean we are not free?

Dazh would be with the rest of us calling out the politicians who had called the invasion

Kelvin you’re misrepresenting again. Do I need to reach for the report button again?Find me one quote where I’ve supported Putin. You won’t find one.

I didn’t say you were supporting Putin.

Although whatever I type here will get deleted anyway, again, once you’ve reported me, again, as we can’t call you out when you claim we want nuclear war, that we want a preemptive nuclear strike. You can misrepresent others just fine.

Your “all the world leaders are to blame” stuff should be called out. Only one world leader is involved in attacking Ukraine now.

dazh

Kelvin you’re misrepresenting again. Do I need to reach for the report button again?Find me one quote where I’ve supported Putin. You won’t find one

Didn’t you recently say how people should take the forum too seriously.

You seem to be reporting anyone that is pointing out obvious and patently true errors in your posts.

The report button isn’t a lifeboat when you feel under pressure from the obvious being pointed out to you time and time again from poster after poster.

I actually admire some of your posts in other contentious topics on here. Genuinely.

On this topic however, you are patently wrong and I have no problem in saying so.

Sorry but that’s a ridiculous analogy. In lockdown all we had to do was stay at home. In war we’d have to kill other people and perhaps sacrifice ourselves. The two don’t compare.

I think they do, in both cases society/government is telling you to do something that would not normally be asked of you as an individual. The degree of sacrifice is obviously much greater with conscription/war but the principle is the same. It’s an individual vs society issue.
I presume you feel that there should not have been conscription in the UK in WW2 even if it would have meant defeat?

Stop squabbling children.

and the apparent tendency of people to create a simplistic goodies vs baddies Hollywood Cold War type story.

This absolutely. I find the tendency of westerners to characterise this war as a good vs evil battle from the comfort of our cosy living rooms extremely offensive. People are dying. Millions have seen their lives destroyed, including those in Russia who are going to be cast into poverty as a result of sanctions thanks to their deranged president. And here we are talking about goodies vs baddies! It’s pathetic quite frankly.

People are dying. Millions have seen their lives destroyed, including those in Russia who are going to be cast into poverty as a result of sanctions thanks to their deranged president. 

At last we can all start to agree on something.

frankconway
Full Member
Stop squabbling children.

Sorry Frank and other posters but I’m a little fed up watching this horrendous war unfolding everyday in front of us and being told this is Ukraine’s/ its governments fault.

Its wrong and it needs to be said.

dazh

thanks to their deranged president

At last.

On this topic however, you are patently wrong

No I just have a view that war is almost always the result of ruling elites who are quite happy to sacrifice the lives of normal people to further their own interests. The war in Ukraine is no different. The solution is to stop fighting and start talking. I’m not seeing much enthusiasm for that here though.

The solution is to stop fighting and start talking. I’m not seeing much enthusiasm for that here though.

The two sides are talking. In the meantime Russia is refusing a halt to hostilities.

Point to a single poster who doesn’t want the fighting to stop.

dazh has constantly been defecting any blame for the invasion away from Russia, time and time again

I’m not reading it that way. It looks to me like he’s trying to unpick the reasons why Putin invaded rather than saying he’s simply evil.

dazh

No I just have a view that war is almost always the result of ruling elites who are quite happy to sacrifice the lives of normal people to further their own interests. The war in Ukraine is no different. The solution is to stop fighting and start talking. I’m not seeing much enthusiasm for that here though.

We all agree that this invasion is terrible and shouldn’t have begun or continue. Not one poster on here from any viewpoint has said otherwise to my knowledge.

Ukraine as a state isn’t perfect, Ukraine as a civil society isn’t perfect and there are lots of elements in it that I find distasteful.
However, in this case you have to ask if this has any bearing on the cause of this war. The excuses that Putin has made for invading Ukraine are palpably false. That is why ‘Russia’ is in the wrong in this case. Ukraine doesn’t have to be a nation of proletarian saints & Russia a state of deranged megalomaniacs for one side to be ‘right’ and the other ‘wrong’. Not absolutely, morally saintly right, but none the less to be the side we should support despite all their blemishes.
I agree though that it’s a war and propaganda is certainly flying about as it tends to do in times like these.

molgrips

I’m not reading it that way. It looks to me like he’s trying to unpick the reasons why Putin invaded rather than saying he’s simply evil.

I respect your viewpoint and agree there is more to this that Putin being simply evil.

It’s more about his perceived or invented enemies he’s created to satisfy whatever serial need he has to invade countries. Chechnya, Georgia, Ukraine.

Whether that list increases only he knows.

No I just have a view that war is almost always the result of ruling elites who are quite happy to sacrifice the lives of normal people to further their own interests

as I alluded to above: You have an ideology with certain views of what war is. Therefore as this is a war, it’s pretty obvious you will see this conflict in a certain way. I would argue that you are choosing to view reality in such a way as to ensure it conforms to your beliefs.

The solution is to stop fighting and start talking. I’m not seeing much enthusiasm for that here though.

I posted a link to a Reuters report a couple of pages ago, that there were some positive signs from both sides out of the latest talks.  I don’t think there is a single person on this thread who wouldn’t welcome a ceasefire and dialogue.  The sub text of your post is that people on here are somehow enjoying this.  Now that is offensive.

Whether that list increases only he knows.

The Finns are getting very nervous

And rightly so

Whatever NATO does or doesn’t do, Putin won’t stop at Ukraine

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/vladimir-putin-wants-to-regain-finland-for-russia-adviser-says-9224273.html