Trains – virgin loses west coast mainline

The FirstGroup have won the bid for the West Coast main line, beating out Virgin, meaning they can run it until 2026.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/aug/15/virgin-trains-west-coast-mainline-firstgroup

The news has made Bob Crow sad.

Virgin were pretty good by UK train standards IMO. First, not so much – Their transpennine express is woeful.
Does anyone know if Virgin own the rolling stock? Or do First get to take it over and paint the pendolinos purple?

Angel Trains (a ROSCO) own the rolling stock (Pendolinos were built by Alstom with the WCML in mind) and lease to Virgin (well, technically the current franchisee of the WCML).

I think it was a vanilla lease, so there will likely be a mechanism which allows the new franchisee to take the lease of the existing rolling stock (which makes sense, given that it would be pretty pointless running them anywhere else and I can’t think of any replacement stock).

First will just change the livery.

A sad day in my opinion (both professionally and as a passenger).

All part of the race to the bottom that rail privatisation has brought us. Fantastic isn’t it?

🙁 I’ll echo the sentiment above, always thought Virgin did a decent job, First on the otherhand I’ve never been impressed with.

Virgin were ok I seem to remember.

However First Great Western are ok too I think, Swansea to London at least. No real issues apart from overcrowding.

I find First Scotrail to be very good and they regularly get customer service awards.

All part of the race to the bottom that rail privatisation has brought us. Fantastic isn’t it?

Virgin were a long way ahead of what we used to call a rail service

Given the responses on Twitter, First must be really bad because ive never had a nice experience on a Virgin train.

As above, I was disappointed to hear this this morning – Virgin had done a great job on the west coast, travelling with them was a revelation compared to most train operators back in the early days of their lease. I now live elsewhere, but use transpennine express occasionally, which is invariably crap – late, overcrowded etc… a recent trip up to glasgow on virgin on the west coast line revealed they still do a better job than just about any other operator.

I find First Scotrail to be very good and they regularly get customer service awards.

The Scotrail franchise is an anomaly in First’s portfolio. They are actually well regarded by passengers and performance is good. There is a very different attitude to the Scotrail franchise compared to other sectors they are involved in.

hopefully the fascist bike policy will change.
The Virgin trains themselves were fine apart from the stinky toilets – apparently the waste tanks had a layer of foam on top of them to stop the stink getting out but when they went round corners it used to slop over and fill the carriage with the smell. Bleeargh.
The food available was overpriced and nasty, the wifi was crap too.
But they were quick and cheap relative to the East coast main line and largely ran on time which is the main thing.

All part of the race to the bottom that rail privatisation has brought us. Fantastic isn’t it?

Don’t be silly, privatisation is wonderful. You get all the efficiencies that only profit driven enterprise can give with extremely motivated staff continually exceeding targets and expectations.

It’s so good we will soon see all these improvements in health, social care, policing, schools etc.

First Group are horrible. Look forward to neat tricks like big trumpeted claims of increased capacity, when what has actually happened is that trains have been shortened by a carriage, and seat legroom massively reduced to cram in more people. Oh, and if you’re travelling late in the evening, then you’re clearly scum who should be squashed into the smallest train possible, even if the nearby national stadium has just discharged 90,000 people, a lot of whom plan to get home.

As a regular user of FGW, I would say they are terrible……

Consistently manipulate statistics to artificialy boost their performance

woeful customer service, I’ve been diverted and dumped by FGW at a station 15 miles from my booked journey (with no ongoing transport arranged dispite FGW saying for the previous 3 hrs that it had been arranged)

frequent cancellations, short trains, I could go on but the occassions when they get it right do not make up for the when it goes wrong

you can accept that things go wrong….. however how good a company is shown by what they do then… FGW shows its true colours and fails….

Virgin were a long way ahead of what we used to call a rail service

If I recall correctly, they started off pretty shit. And then they dragged themselves all the way to roughly average, which is better than shit but still years behind a good chunk of Europe. While I have some sympathies for Virgin, I can’t but see karma giggling as it kicks them up the arse after quietly fleecing the tax payer with their Northern Rock deal. 🙂

Well, that’s depressing reading given that my partner and I are at opposite ends of the country for the next 18 months and use that service weekly.

From Theresa Villiers’ closing paragraph,

“This new franchise will deliver big improvements for passengers, with more seats and plans for more services. Targets to meet on passenger satisfaction will be introduced for the first time in an InterCity rail franchise and passengers will also benefit from smart ticketing and from investment in stations.”

More seats = less room, and cattle class is packed already.
Smart ticketing = give a damn when I’m on a train?
Investment in stations = give a damn when I’m on a train?

Great.

branson reckons 1st have overpaid and will end up having to go back to the government

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/9476519/Richard-Branson-attacks-Government-insanity-after-Virgin-Trains-loses-West-Coast-rail-contract.html

sounds like sour grapes but its not the first time its happened

They’ll default within 5 years I reckons.

Total disaster. They’re promising to invest in some new stock though, I’ll wager they’ll conveniently do some slightly cunning contract negotiations on that to ensure that the DfT can’t boot them out as easily when it goes wrong.

with more seats

Yep, that sounds like the exact trick First have pulled on the Great Western line. They went from relatively comfy old Intercity seats, to horrible plasticy things with substantially less legroom. I can’t even get my knees into the things.

deadlydarcy – Member
All part of the race to the bottom that rail privatisation has brought us. Fantastic isn’t it?

Agreed, big time.

I’ve been a rail/public transport commuter for 25 years, mostly in the UK but also in the US, Switzerland and Singapore. Without a shadow of a doubt privatisation in the UK has been a disaster in terms of service and cost (add in the cost of parking which has increased massively, in the US the car park was free if you had a season ticket). The rail companies are making millions from property transactions selling off land for housing.

BTW Bob Crow is part of the problem, he earns well over £100k and lives in a council house. His members are fabulously well paid and have lavish pensions, just like the Greek equivalents.

If I recall correctly, they started off pretty shit.

They did, but then they started off trying to run a train service using the mess of worn out equipment left behind by British Rail. Since then there’s been massive investment in both the infrastructure and the rolling stock and when I’ve used it it’s been pretty good. I don’t hold much hope for further improvements under First Group though.

Virgin’s comments.

http://www.virgin.com/richard-branson/blog/on-virgin-trains

add in the cost of parking which has increased massively, in the US the car park was free if you had a season ticket

And you have to wait for the daily (if you’re lucky) train, which then runs many hours late with absolutely no particular justification.

Our service is far from perfect, but I’d far sooner that than the US service. Even their sole ‘flag ship’ route – the NEC – isn’t great, and everything else is really really crap!

The comments about privatisation are the opposite if what said yesterday on the Jeremy Vine show by current rail staff phoning in who used to be British Rail. They all said that without the privatisation they would still using the rolling stock from 1955 modernisation plan and they wouldn’t be anywhere near as many trains on the tracks. This was a similar arguement to what the passengers said who continue to use the trains pre and post privatisation. The women who came on arguing for the rails to be nationalised again in the wake of expected fare increases received no support.

As a life long rail enthusiast, a few points, ive never been on a virgin train , their ticketing system and staff attitude are poor, and expensive,a lot of trains run empty, due to high seat costs.

Pendolinos are italian designed by fiat and built by Alstom, and being a fixed formaton cant be easily adapted to fit more coaches on, there is also the length of the platforms to consider.#

First are also selling off their bus intrests bit by bit, chester and birkenhead are up for sale along with others, possibly to pay for the trains .

What First need to do is make a standard fare, no matter what time of day, get the trains full all day, not stupid book a month in advance, and travel cheaper than somebody siting in the seat next to you that bought the ticket that day.

Free parking at stations for rail users, more space on trains for bikes.

jambalaya – Member

Agreed, big time.
I’ve been a rail/public transport commuter for 25 years, mostly in the UK but also in the US, Switzerland and Singapore.

Did you know there are as many train run in Kent on the average day as all of Switzerland? Or so some a rail expert on the radio last year.

They all said that without the privatisation they would still using the rolling stock from 1955 modernisation plan and they wouldn’t be anywhere near as many trains on the tracks.

They are probably right, because of lack of investment in the railways over the decades, by various Governments. But privatisation as a way of solving it was nothing short of criminal. I can think think of few other countries on the planet that operate the rail system this way.

What First need to do is make a standard fare, no matter what time of day, get the trains full all day,

That’s not even close to being possible.

Most people want to travel at peak times, that’s why they call them peak times! And that’s also why they discount fares at off-peak times, to encourage those who can travel then to do so.

Honestly, do you think they make this stuff up because they’re bored?

First are stupidly expensive on the GW line though. Peak return from Reading to Bristol is an astonishing £122. It’s barely 75 miles! Unsuprisingly those trains run almost empty, while the M4 clogs

I’ve been commuting a couple of days a week with Virgin from Stoke to London for the past 8 months. Apart from the ticket prices being a bit steep(but work pays), I have had a pretty good service from them. Rarely been late, generally early into London. The trains could sometimes do with a bit better cleaning but thats about it.

It has improved over the past few months as they have had some new pendolino rolling stock with 11 cars rather than 9, and the older trains are having the extra 2 carraiges added. It makes a massive difference as a season ticket holder as you will always get a seat, even on the peak trains.

It will be interesting to see what happens come the end of the year.

They all said that without the privatisation they would still using the rolling stock from 1955 modernisation plan and they wouldn’t be anywhere near as many trains on the tracks.

Oh – don’t listen to anyone who tells you that the pre-privatised rail service was some model of efficiency, cleanliness or punctuality. It was rubbish. However, you need to consider what might have been achieved with a decent amount of government investment and without the need to pay a dividend to shareholders. Whether that would ever have been forthcoming is an idealogical discussion that goes far beyond what sort of train service we get.

What First need to do is make a standard fare, no matter what time of day, get the trains full all day,

Most people want to travel at peak times, that’s why they call them peak times! And that’s also why they discount fares at off-peak times, to encourage those who can travel then to do so.

Honestly, do you think they make this stuff up because they’re bored?

But passengers who travel for leisure have the choice of when to travel, if im driving for leisure i avoid the rush hour its simple, do shops suddenly put up prices at their busiest times, do car parks charge more for busy times.

NO.

As a life long rail enthusiast, a few points, ive never been on a virgin train , their ticketing system and staff attitude are poor, and expensive,a lot of trains run empty, due to high seat costs.

never used their trains but an expert on staff attitude and ticketing systems?

Oh and Virgin knew the train franchise would be re tendered as are all the train tenders, so stop moaning richard, and do something else.

BigButSlimmerBloke – Member

As a life long rail enthusiast, a few points, ive never been on a virgin train , their ticketing system and staff attitude are poor, and expensive,a lot of trains run empty, due to high seat costs.

never used their trains but an expert on staff attitude and ticketing systems?

Rung them many times, and theyre expensive, dont answer the phone, are slow with information, and have over complicated ticketing.

If my experiences of FGW are anything to go by then I suspect the West Coast is going to be bobbins. The service, on the whole, is appalling. Trains are constantly late, sometimes never turning up at all. Hideous service. Never used Virgin but the reports from colleagues that have used them have been very positive. Feel sorry for those that have got used to the Virgin service as I fear it may well get a lot worse.

Actually, some do. Many have an hourly rate during the daytime but you can leave a car overnight/evening for a fraction of that.

I travelled via Virgin to Exeter last year. The train I was on left late, then got held up somewhere waiting for the change-over driver. Eventually, we were so far behind that they decided to merge the service I was on with the one behind. That would have been fine except that I’d booked a bike space and it was only through sheer bluddy determination that I managed to get my bike on the following service.

Overall, I didn’t see anything to commend them.

do shops suddenly put up prices at their busiest times, do car parks charge more for busy times.

NO.

That’s simply not true. Have you never tried to park near a concert venue when there’s a concert on?

Many car parks offer different rates for overnight parking, or other peak / off peak rates parking. The one next to Preston train station is £10/day on weekdays and £2/day at weekends, as a random on-topic example.

Pub fluctuate drinks prices all the time. Drinks are often cheaper midweek (“happy hour” etc) to encourage more customers in quiet periods. Shops ram up prices at busy times and have sales at quieter ones (though this is seasonal rather than hourly, usually).

They’re all in this to make as much money as possible. They’ll charge whatever price gives them the best return, and in the case of train fairs it will be precisely calculated. It’s not in their best interest to run an empty train, every empty seat is a lost sale; conversely, a train full to bursting means they can get away with charging more.

But passengers who travel for leisure have the choice of when to travel, if im driving for leisure i avoid the rush hour its simple, do shops suddenly put up prices at their busiest times, do car parks charge more for busy times.

Rail is a bit different though – as long as you can get a seat the service is identical so there’s less disincentive to travel at peak times when you don’t need to vs sitting in a traffic jam for an hour or waiting in a long queue at lunch time in Tesco.
However ticket prices are pretty mental (at least on FGW) and if First group have over-bidded £750m and have promised investment/improvements then surely it’s going to get worse.

Mind you as they’re bailing out on the FGW contract early as they can’t afford to run it for the price they paid then you do have to feel a bit sorry for Branson when he gets out-bid all the time by people that can’t afford to run it at the bid price. There should be penalty clauses built in not get out of jail free clauses and prior history should come into it, you screw up one contract and hand it back early and that should count hugely against you on the next one you bid on.